Cathay Pacific ‘to axe 6,000 staff and Dragon brand’ in bid to stay afloat
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I am concerned as to the true strategy of the company. The entire 777 fleet is effectively grounded....approx 1000 (?) pilots...and amongst them the most senior/higher cost of the airline. Once we've all signed over to POS18, what is to stop the company from furloughing the majority of those people? It seems to me that the company is implementing a scorched earth policy, and that being the case this scenario is not beyond the possible for this rather soulless management.
Last edited by Blue Bag Bitch; 24th Oct 2020 at 04:29.
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I understand the hard choice you're facing and we might have had the best deal: No thinking take the money and go .
All the best for the future
I'm afraid Freehills is right - when things change so dramatically sometimes what you are left with is ... no choice. In employment terms for pilots this is like a real tsunami. or an earthquake - EVRYTHING is gone and you're luck to be still breathing. The past life is wiped out except as a memory - all you can do is to look forward. You might be lucky and get some help but don't bet on it.
And as for trying to sue "someone" who has no money for recompense... good luck
I’ve no interest in comparing one base against another, but the flaws in your numbers need to be addressed so that people can fully understand what they’re faced with in regards to COS18.
There is no factoring for block hours in COS18. No scheduled or better. No credit for sims, EP’s, sick leave, annual leave, etc. Previously it was possible for a pilot to achieve 84 credit hours a month, month in month out for the entire year. For a COS18 pilot to now achieve 84 hours a month they’d have to fly 1008 hours annually. Obviously impossible for a number of reasons. So let’s take the rare pilot that bounces of their AFTL limits. That averages out to 75 hours a month.
But DFO after DFO have complained that due to all sorts of reasons the average pilot does less than 700 hours a year. Let’s bump that up a bit and call it 60 hours a month. Look at your own logbooks over a 10 year period, divide the total hours flown by 120, then the resulting answer is the figure you need to put into the COS18 formula, not 84.
The real savings in COS18 is not the pilot bouncing off COS08 EFP limits or AFTL limits. It’s the average pilot doing his average workload as assigned by some individual in crew scheduling.
There is no factoring for block hours in COS18. No scheduled or better. No credit for sims, EP’s, sick leave, annual leave, etc. Previously it was possible for a pilot to achieve 84 credit hours a month, month in month out for the entire year. For a COS18 pilot to now achieve 84 hours a month they’d have to fly 1008 hours annually. Obviously impossible for a number of reasons. So let’s take the rare pilot that bounces of their AFTL limits. That averages out to 75 hours a month.
But DFO after DFO have complained that due to all sorts of reasons the average pilot does less than 700 hours a year. Let’s bump that up a bit and call it 60 hours a month. Look at your own logbooks over a 10 year period, divide the total hours flown by 120, then the resulting answer is the figure you need to put into the COS18 formula, not 84.
The real savings in COS18 is not the pilot bouncing off COS08 EFP limits or AFTL limits. It’s the average pilot doing his average workload as assigned by some individual in crew scheduling.
Anyway that does make a difference BUT we still don’t get Expat benefits...
Point taken though.
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RTPC no credit nor allowance as they are regulatory. Only CW or any other form of crew up will have a fixed allowance.
Hopefully the company will look after any Australian crew stranded in Hong Kong if they are terminated as there are are strict limits on the numbers allowed to return.
https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/COV...rying-get-home
https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/COV...rying-get-home
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Don’t get sick
Don’t forget to put a few dollars aside from your ‘competative’ CoS20 salaries to top up your ‘competitive’ CX health cover plans. The basic cover, especially for F/O and S/O, looks wafer thin. Fingers crossed your spouse or kids don’t get sick.
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You've got to hand it to these guys, they're certainly not letting a good crisis go to waste.
Despite decades of posturing, the company has not placed another 'sign or be fired' contract on the table simply because they ran the risk of losing more aircrew then they could possibly replace without the rails coming off.
With the fleet parked, nobody else hiring and no recovery on the foreseeable horizon, this is the opportunity of a lifetime. There has never been a better time to roll the dice.
Despite decades of posturing, the company has not placed another 'sign or be fired' contract on the table simply because they ran the risk of losing more aircrew then they could possibly replace without the rails coming off.
With the fleet parked, nobody else hiring and no recovery on the foreseeable horizon, this is the opportunity of a lifetime. There has never been a better time to roll the dice.
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Can someone explain to me how it suddenly becomes legal to violate the LIFO clause in our contract, if we don't sign this thing. Let me get it straight. You sign, no LIFO. You don't sign, no LIFO. If you're a 777 pilot, you're literally signing (or not signing) your job away in either case. So why on earth would you sign this?
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Can someone explain to me how it suddenly becomes legal to violate the LIFO clause in our contract, if we don't sign this thing. Let me get it straight. You sign, no LIFO. You don't sign, no LIFO. If you're a 777 pilot, you're literally signing (or not signing) your job away in either case. So why on earth would you sign this?
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Can someone explain to me how it suddenly becomes legal to violate the LIFO clause in our contract, if we don't sign this thing. Let me get it straight. You sign, no LIFO. You don't sign, no LIFO. If you're a 777 pilot, you're literally signing (or not signing) your job away in either case. So why on earth would you sign this?
In the HKG arena (which isn't necessarily the case elsewhere) it comes down to enforceability. CAN you recover damages for a termination based on a scam to get rid of a seniority based layoff system (as well as the 6 month pay protection)--simply changing it to a two step process (a person isn't directly laid off on the old contract where LIFO applies -- he is forced to transition to a NEW contract and THEN laid off at will where LIFO doesn't apply; and when this happens he also forfeits the original pay protected six months) ? Dunno. In most developed nations this would be seen to be what it actually is by a third party who'd adjudicate it accordingly (especially after a company refused government stimulus with the specific intent of altering an existing in-force contract). Which is why most carriers in those nations don't do this (instead having some form of early out package for force reduction as well as negotiating an amendment to their contract which might provide a time period to go at reduced capacity/pay while preserving seniority and everything else. And if layoffs are required beyond this doing so IAW the contract with the associated recall rights).
What I suspect most in HKG are doing is believing (rightly or wrongly) that it won't happen to THEM and that they'll at least get something out of the deal. Looking at the shiny transition period (where they might get some continued income and housing) without realizing that could end abruptly too. Is it the right choice ? Depends on the individual. I would hope they're weighing the negative aspects of living under the conditions they are (with time and opportunities elsewhere that aren't recoverable; those opportunities perhaps being there albeit perhaps in a different career field) with the uncertainty they inject into their lives by choosing to sign over.
Last edited by Slasher1; 24th Oct 2020 at 18:01.
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Well, objectively speaking, there is no career at CX anymore. It's quite incredible to conclude that I went from working for arguably the best airline in the world to now one of the worst. The reality is that there is probably no way back from this. Either everyone refuses to sign and it heads to the courts, or (as I suspect), the majority will roll over prior to the 28th and effectively "volunteer" for the change to their contracts. You can earn almost 2 1/2 times as much with some of the mainland based carriers....that should help illuminate the reality of where CX has taken all of us. If you are under 55 (and certainly if married), there is really no way forward with this airline. I would spend my time updating my resume and considering almost any other job, particularly back home. Sadly, they have pulled the entire rug out from underneath us. It was good while it lasted...
nb: several KA pilots have just placed their homes up for sale....at 25% or greater drop below market. More to come...
nb: several KA pilots have just placed their homes up for sale....at 25% or greater drop below market. More to come...
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Well, objectively speaking, there is no career at CX anymore. It's quite incredible to conclude that I went from working for arguably the best airline in the world to now one of the worst. The reality is that there is probably no way back from this. Either everyone refuses to sign and it heads to the courts, or (as I suspect), the majority will roll over prior to the 28th and effectively "volunteer" for the change to their contracts. You can earn almost 2 1/2 times as much with some of the mainland based carriers....that should help illuminate the reality of where CX has taken all of us. If you are under 55 (and certainly if married), there is really no way forward with this airline. I would spend my time updating my resume and considering almost any other job, particularly back home. Sadly, they have pulled the entire rug out from underneath us. It was good while it lasted...
nb: several KA pilots have just placed their homes up for sale....at 25% or greater drop below market. More to come...
nb: several KA pilots have just placed their homes up for sale....at 25% or greater drop below market. More to come...
Next step hive off lower yield routes to express rinse and repeat what happened at ka.
SQ used to have expat contracts with housing and schooling allowances, that ended a few years ago. There are still foreigners employed but everyone is on the same terms. There are no bases but some Malaysians commute. Living costs in Singapore are a bit lower than Hong Kong, especially housing if you are a local.
Pay cuts have been agreed but these are temporary and include senior management. No doubt that CX are taking full advantage of this once in a lifetime crisis and intend to have T&Cs determined by market forces going forward. Soon, only the ME3 will have expat packages and even those are being reduced.
My mob recently got rid of 25% of flight crew and even with that we're still planning on having a surplus for the next three years, once demand picks up it's probably another year of getting those who want to return back online. External recruitment very unlikely before 2025 and then they can be very picky about who they take on.
With long haul premium and transit traffic likely to be the last to recover, I can't see CX planning on carrying a huge pilot surplus for the next 4 - 5 years, even on the new contract, whilst every other major airline is laying off 20 - 35% of their pilots. I think Slasher has got it right, sign the new contract or you're out, which gets rid of a few. Once the new contract is inplace, lay off those you want to get rid of under terms favourable to the company. Carry a small excess of pilots in the meantime and when you need to recruit again, they'll come running for whatever's on offer.
Doesn't matter if they overshoot with the layoffs as there will be plenty of suitable candidates around who can quickly be brought back online.
Pay cuts have been agreed but these are temporary and include senior management. No doubt that CX are taking full advantage of this once in a lifetime crisis and intend to have T&Cs determined by market forces going forward. Soon, only the ME3 will have expat packages and even those are being reduced.
My mob recently got rid of 25% of flight crew and even with that we're still planning on having a surplus for the next three years, once demand picks up it's probably another year of getting those who want to return back online. External recruitment very unlikely before 2025 and then they can be very picky about who they take on.
With long haul premium and transit traffic likely to be the last to recover, I can't see CX planning on carrying a huge pilot surplus for the next 4 - 5 years, even on the new contract, whilst every other major airline is laying off 20 - 35% of their pilots. I think Slasher has got it right, sign the new contract or you're out, which gets rid of a few. Once the new contract is inplace, lay off those you want to get rid of under terms favourable to the company. Carry a small excess of pilots in the meantime and when you need to recruit again, they'll come running for whatever's on offer.
Doesn't matter if they overshoot with the layoffs as there will be plenty of suitable candidates around who can quickly be brought back online.
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You've got to hand it to these guys, they're certainly not letting a good crisis go to waste.
Despite decades of posturing, the company has not placed another 'sign or be fired' contract on the table simply because they ran the risk of losing more aircrew then they could possibly replace without the rails coming off.
With the fleet parked, nobody else hiring and no recovery on the foreseeable horizon, this is the opportunity of a lifetime. There has never been a better time to roll the dice.
Despite decades of posturing, the company has not placed another 'sign or be fired' contract on the table simply because they ran the risk of losing more aircrew then they could possibly replace without the rails coming off.
With the fleet parked, nobody else hiring and no recovery on the foreseeable horizon, this is the opportunity of a lifetime. There has never been a better time to roll the dice.
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How will this impact the international schools, property market and so on? All of which affects people’s view of the place and their choice of where to live and work. Singapore is starting to look like a better place to be.