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Cathay Pacific ‘to axe 6,000 staff and Dragon brand’ in bid to stay afloat

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Cathay Pacific ‘to axe 6,000 staff and Dragon brand’ in bid to stay afloat

Old 23rd Oct 2020, 17:37
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 2,151
what's the alternative? You won't get a job anywhere else for years.

Make do and mend - which may mean a very drastic change in your & your family's life-style or retire I guess
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 17:52
  #102 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
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What's the point

Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
Having "run the numbers" it's quite obvious that anyone beyond a 21 yr old single SO will find it almost impossible to make ends meet, especially if they are married with family. It is of particular concern when you realise that few if any of us will be able to fly a full roster for the next year or two at best, thereby ensuring very minimal pay amounts for at least that time period. There is also the question of very inadequate health care, which again is putting anyone with a family in a potentially very dire situation with any serious illness. That raises the question: other than building time for the less experienced pilots, what on earth is the point of staying in HK/CX when you will almost certainly be going backwards financially every month? Comments...
Other than the experience of going bankrupt, there is not one ‼️
Flex88 is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 17:56
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
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Make do ❓

Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
what's the alternative? You won't get a job anywhere else for years.

Make do and mend - which may mean a very drastic change in your & your family's life-style or retire I guess
Is taking your "family" down the road to massive debt then bankruptcy "making do ?"
Flex88 is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 19:08
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 10
Originally Posted by hkgfooey View Post
The maximum possible statutory severance package under the employment ordnance is $390,000, and that money is offset against the P-Fund

Ask the ex-KA employees, they only received the minimum statuary severance payment (from their P-fund), all benefits immediately terminated, no medical, no repatriation flights, no repatriation of belongings.

Is that true? They didn't even get their P-fund? No retiree staff travel? Wow... I thought they at least got made redundant.... so 6 months salary etc....
triple7driver is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 19:09
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: FL340
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There is an alternative.
Stand up in Court and fight for our deserved rights.
one should not sign to CoS18, instead, challenge it in court.
FlyingNun is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 19:29
  #106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: The Forbidden City
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Originally Posted by FlyingNun View Post
There is an alternative.
Stand up in Court and fight for our deserved rights.
one should not sign to CoS18, instead, challenge it in court.
Like my teen would say - LMFAO
Curry Lamb is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 19:39
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 22
Does anyone have reliable info on the severance package for the Cathay Dragon pilots?
Very sad situation indeed. My heart goes out to them. Totally undeserved!
UNEASY is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 19:42
  #108 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 62
I am concerned as to the true strategy of the company. The entire 777 fleet is effectively grounded....approx 1000 (?) pilots...and amongst them the most senior/higher cost of the airline. Once we've all signed over to POS18, what is to stop the company from furloughing the majority of those people? It seems to me that the company is implementing a scorched earth policy, and that being the case this scenario is not beyond the possible for this rather soulless management.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 20:26
  #109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: taiwan
Age: 53
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more than 90% will sign the new COS..... or maybe 98%.
icemankk2001 is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 20:31
  #110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: CLK
Posts: 357
Simples!
They need about 500 pilots to fly the Dragon routes in the narrowbody and avoid rostering over the monthly block hours number that is included in basic pay.
So, 500 retrained onto A320/1/neo, starting with the Training Ban breaking hero trainers.
The other 500 are terminated from COS18 with no LIFO/seniority early next year after the 2021 First Quarter review that reveals the already stated maximum of 25% of normal schedules to be flown due to continuing effects of COVID.
Farman Biplane is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 21:42
  #111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
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Originally Posted by Farman Biplane View Post
So, 500 retrained onto A320/1/neo, starting with the Training Ban breaking hero trainers.
The other 500 are terminated from COS18 with no LIFO/seniority early next year after the 2021 First Quarter review that reveals the already stated maximum of 25% of normal schedules to be flown due to continuing effects of COVID.
I don't think so. My guess some 777 crew will be sent to the "airbus" But now the airbus fleet will be split in two! A330/A350 and A330/A321 it's very easy to do A330/321 easier than A330/A350 it would actually be like when we had and flew the A340 it will be a real ccq not what we do with the A350 (which we all know is actually not like the A330 at all) They might even some how get away with A350/A321 they will give that to the Australian base crew just to P*** them off so
they can do an 8 day pattern!

LLLQNH is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 22:36
  #112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HK
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Originally Posted by Flex88 View Post
Is taking your "family" down the road to massive debt then bankruptcy "making do ?"
time to go ‘home’ and deliver pizza/ stack shelves until something better comes up. Assuming home is somewhere civilised with socialised healthcare. Americans and S Africans don’t have that even to fall back on.
Freehills is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 23:12
  #113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 43
Posts: 988
I know this will never happen but it's not us who are on the back foot it is the company. The amount they are losing each month is astronomical. Imagine if all the cockpit and cabin crew went on strike as there was no consultation. We all would have accepted 50%, maybe even 25% as know the shit has really hit the fan. This would have been a TEMPORARY concession, one year then reviewed. It would have saved even more money than this contract change. What they have done is destroyed all of our futures in one day. It is Cathay who are in the shit, not us, now is the time to fight back as they cant afford to lose more money by shutting down what little they have. I know, never going to happen, a shame as they would have no choice.
SloppyJoe is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 23:19
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Originally Posted by triple7driver View Post
Is that true? They didn't even get their P-fund? No retiree staff travel? Wow... I thought they at least got made redundant.... so 6 months salary etc....
No that's not true,

we got our contractual 3/6 months salary payments and a Goodwill bonus reduced by the amount of the Statutory Severance Payment
For me it's around 15 months of COS 18 basic salary if I was offered to sign and 8 months of my October basic salary.
Not as good as Singapore airlines but they said it's the best they can do.
bacou is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2020, 23:24
  #115 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Asia
Posts: 1,000
Aer Lingus pilots took a big pay cut BUT had the provision that it would be restored once normality returns. However they are in a country with European labour laws and protections.

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2020...lingus-pilots/
krismiler is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2020, 00:53
  #116 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Cesspit
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Originally Posted by ACMS View Post
No, I didn’t add in any EXPAT benefits for HK. I also targeted 84 hours for both.

it’s not that hard to add up with the pay scales data tables in Cos18 and EBA 2020.

I’ve no interest in comparing one base against another, but the flaws in your numbers need to be addressed so that people can fully understand what they’re faced with in regards to COS18.

There is no factoring for block hours in COS18. No scheduled or better. No credit for sims, EP’s, sick leave, annual leave, etc. Previously it was possible for a pilot to achieve 84 credit hours a month, month in month out for the entire year. For a COS18 pilot to now achieve 84 hours a month they’d have to fly 1008 hours annually. Obviously impossible for a number of reasons. So let’s take the rare pilot that bounces of their AFTL limits. That averages out to 75 hours a month.

But DFO after DFO have complained that due to all sorts of reasons the average pilot does less than 700 hours a year. Let’s bump that up a bit and call it 60 hours a month. Look at your own logbooks over a 10 year period, divide the total hours flown by 120, then the resulting answer is the figure you need to put into the COS18 formula, not 84.

The real savings in COS18 is not the pilot bouncing off COS08 EFP limits or AFTL limits. It’s the average pilot doing his average workload as assigned by some individual in crew scheduling.

Last edited by Progress Wanchai; 24th Oct 2020 at 01:06.
Progress Wanchai is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2020, 01:03
  #117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HKG
Posts: 214
Originally Posted by bacou View Post
No that's not true,

we got our contractual 3/6 months salary payments and a Goodwill bonus reduced by the amount of the Statutory Severance Payment
For me it's around 15 months of COS 18 basic salary if I was offered to sign and 8 months of my October basic salary.
Not as good as Singapore airlines but they said it's the best they can do.
I suspect you have done very well. Once the remainder of us are on POS18 they will work out how many airframes will be flying and how many pilots they need. Then the real cull will start, hundreds sacked, no LIFO, minimum payout, make your own way home.
controlledrest is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2020, 01:34
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
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Originally Posted by controlledrest View Post
I suspect you have done very well. Once the remainder of us are on POS18 they will work out how many airframes will be flying and how many pilots they need. Then the real cull will start, hundreds sacked, no LIFO, minimum payout, make your own way home.
That's the scheme. A concocted way to get around contractural responsibilities of required payout and layoff in order of seniority of an existing contract. It's not particularly clever and easy to see through.

In other jurisdictions, this would likely be adjudicated as fraudulent. And there would be contractual remedies and potential prosecution. In HKG, who knows ?
Slasher1 is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2020, 04:10
  #119 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 637
What's to Stop the company ?

Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
I am concerned as to the true strategy of the company. The entire 777 fleet is effectively grounded....approx 1000 (?) pilots...and amongst them the most senior/higher cost of the airline. Once we've all signed over to POS18, what is to stop the company from furloughing the majority of those people? It seems to me that the company is implementing a scorched earth policy, and that being the case this scenario is not beyond the possible for this rather soulless management.
To answer your question, fu**ing nothing... 25 years of a feckless HKAOA and near 100% apathy from the Flight Crew and this is what you get... Sad, yes. Expected, absolutely!!
Flex88 is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2020, 04:14
  #120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 637
In HK ??

Originally Posted by Slasher1 View Post
That's the scheme. A concocted way to get around contractural responsibilities of required payout and layoff in order of seniority of an existing contract. It's not particularly clever and easy to see through.

In other jurisdictions, this would likely be adjudicated as fraudulent. And there would be contractual remedies and potential prosecution. In HKG, who knows ?
"Who knows"? You all do, in HK - you're SOL 🧐. 20+ years too late to take a stand☹️
Flex88 is offline  

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