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CX management. Moral Turpidude

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

CX management. Moral Turpidude

Old 18th Jun 2020, 15:33
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Vermont
Posts: 38
Originally Posted by AllWobbly View Post
Now frankly Iím glad to be nearing the end of my flying career as I can see whatís left of it is descending into a potentially unhappy and divided work force.
I agree, but may I ask: have you put your 2 cents in the hat to BETTER the conditions of service?
-Have you called out your chief pilot for putting his signature under letters directly and indirectly undermining (y)our conditions of service?
-Have you called out or refused your social availability to colleagues who directly and indirectly undermined (y)our conditions of service? (i.e. banbreakers, GD workers, volunteers of all shapes and sizes)
-Have you educated your younger peers about the consequences of their actions?
-Have you complied with your contract 100% (i.e. not 101%) once it became clear that (y)our conditions of service were under continued attack?
-Have you called out and refused to socially interact with ANY manager in the fleet office for attacking and directly and indirectly undermining (y)our conditions of service?

My 2 cents: these despicable human beings should be reaping the consequences of their choice to actively work against the pilot community while at the same time trying to be a part of it.
Their excuses range from ďIf you canít beat them, join themĒ, to ďThe only way to make a difference is from withinĒ, but in my humble opinion they sold their soul and should reap ALL the benefits.
Ä$%k them!
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 15:50
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
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"It’s a form of communism —"

let's see - which country are CX based in................... yes , its a communist state alright................ but TBH BA are doing the same in the UK
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Old 18th Jun 2020, 15:53
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: HK
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Originally Posted by Slasher1 View Post
YGBSM.

New joiners are hired for over a decade on a series of declining contracts. These (knowingly) undermine existing contracts yet the new joiners donít care. The company plays this very well. Fair enough. The common element in the contract is seniority and the rules are clearly delineated. Seniority has great value and effectively anchors people in the job preventing easy transfer and market forces to operate to some extent (being a barrier to entry and exit). Keeping many with higher skills and qualifications from going elsewhere with these because to do so would dump the seniority and have them start all over at the bottom.

"Unprecedented times ?!?" -- yeah-- Bullshite. . While perhaps the Wuhan Flu itself was unpredictable and unexpected, it's completely foreseeable that SOMETHING would happen over the life of the contract (which is why you have a contract with layoff and recall provisions to begin with). Historically airlines have faced numerous boom and bust cycles by SOME kind of event. While the exact type of event might be wholly unknown its obvious to anyone in the industry that it will happen (and might even happen a couple or few times over a career). Which is why a contract and agreement towards what to do when it does happen exists in the first place.

Now a significant event happens and the snowflakes want to change the contract by voiding the clearly defined lay-off and recall procedures contained within it. They donít want the rules they knowingly agreed to apply to them anymore (and neither does the company in that they are the cheap labor and the first to go under the agreed contract). Itís a form of communism ó make up some scam downline to Ďshare the painí and void the contract endorsing the behavior of those who deliberately undermined it over the years to begin with. In other words enabling bad behavior. What one agreed and committed to doesnít matter anymore.

How can anyone think this is in any way the right thing to do ?

Now, to be fair contracts are not necessarily static and perhaps given the objectives of company and person at some point downline both parties might find a mutually agreed better way to do things. That's fine too; several US carriers have done so by incentivizing early out (voluntary) packages or (completely) voluntary leave packages. Without propaganda or coercion. Where the value of seniority and the layoff/recall provisions in the original contract are preserved (not deliberately circumvented).
The point is that the company is NOT seeking redundancies at this time. Extremely callous to want to see your colleagues be made redundant during this unprecedented time (yes, it is unprecedented, there has never been anything remotely close to this sustained level of destruction accross the entire industry). I suppose such callousness is made easier by dehumanising everyone junior to you with labels like 'snowflakes'.

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Old 18th Jun 2020, 16:35
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
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Originally Posted by YellowFever777 View Post
The point is that the company is NOT seeking redundancies at this time. Extremely callous to want to see your colleagues be made redundant during this unprecedented time (yes, it is unprecedented, there has never been anything remotely close to this sustained level of destruction accross the entire industry). I suppose such callousness is made easier by dehumanising everyone junior to you with labels like 'snowflakes'.
Ya....I guess you can rationalize it any way you want. I don't see many folks dying of starvation so just don't see the drama queen factor of 'unprecedented' nor do I see it much differently than any other bust cycle which periodically routes the aviation industry. It's just that the aviation industry has had more of a boom in the recent years so when it busts the numbers are larger.

The company is not seeking redundancies so it can abrogate the provisions of the contract. To include seniority and required pay protection. It's a type of end-run to shirk the legitimate contractural responsibilities (which is why you have a contract in the first place).

FWIW I think it's pretty darn callous and selfish for people to join under ever decreasing sets of conditions deliberately undermining the contracts of those who are already working at the place, but what would I know.

Snowflakes sounds a great deal more human than scabs though. So I'll just stick with that. Folks that decide to sign up for something and then go out of their way to later circumvent the ramifications of their actions. And it's up to others to pay for the well defined consequences of them making the choices they knew about and made anyway (perhaps like in a seniority based system taking POS18 with the knowledge they'd be the first out the door if things went downhill). Or blame the lender for lending them money so easily for that yacht they later figure out they can't pay for.

Last edited by Slasher1; 18th Jun 2020 at 16:48.
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Old 19th Jun 2020, 01:40
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Posts: 192
I hear a whole bunch of BS. This is the same as any other boom bust cycle? When you get off the LSD try to rethink what youíre saying. Also, what did YOU do to prevent the company introducing B scale, C scale and COS18? Did you unite in a union? Did you strike? What did you do in order to help out colleagues to NOT undermine your contract? I can only assume you are on A scale with that rhetoric. Anything less than that makes you an enormous hypocrite.

Let me guess what you did about it though; nothing at all. The likes of Lufthansa, KLM and others have managed (so far in their history) to not get divided and to protect their work place. Here in Hong Kong, solidarity is a myth only to be read about in sagas. It is pathetic.

All of this, disregarding the fact that you keep circumnavigating the issue. So let me repeat it for you again, I understand the brain does slow with age; There. Are. No. Redundancies. No one is breaking your contract.

If you wish to take SLS you are free to do so, if you donít you are free not to. But I know people like you, you derive your entire self worth from your silly position at work and some number on a seniority list. You believe the more people out of work and destitute, the higher your social status becomes. You are free to believe that, but I have some news for you. The vast majority of people here are normal and not borderline sociopaths, and the vast majority will take up SLS again for the greater good.

You know, the greater good? That idea and concept that does not solely revolve around you, your contract or indeed only your pilot colleagues? Nah, didnít think so. Sadly, no wars are won with people like you.
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Old 19th Jun 2020, 05:48
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Drfaust - well said - I totally agree with you !!!!
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Old 19th Jun 2020, 06:34
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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Originally Posted by drfaust View Post
I hear a whole bunch of BS. This is the same as any other boom bust cycle? When you get off the LSD try to rethink what youíre saying. Also, what did YOU do to prevent the company introducing B scale, C scale and COS18? Did you unite in a union? Did you strike? What did you do in order to help out colleagues to NOT undermine your contract? I can only assume you are on A scale with that rhetoric. Anything less than that makes you an enormous hypocrite.

Let me guess what you did about it though; nothing at all. The likes of Lufthansa, KLM and others have managed (so far in their history) to not get divided and to protect their work place. Here in Hong Kong, solidarity is a myth only to be read about in sagas. It is pathetic.

All of this, disregarding the fact that you keep circumnavigating the issue. So let me repeat it for you again, I understand the brain does slow with age; There. Are. No. Redundancies. No one is breaking your contract.

If you wish to take SLS you are free to do so, if you donít you are free not to. But I know people like you, you derive your entire self worth from your silly position at work and some number on a seniority list. You believe the more people out of work and destitute, the higher your social status becomes. You are free to believe that, but I have some news for you. The vast majority of people here are normal and not borderline sociopaths, and the vast majority will take up SLS again for the greater good.

You know, the greater good? That idea and concept that does not solely revolve around you, your contract or indeed only your pilot colleagues? Nah, didnít think so. Sadly, no wars are won with people like you.
couldnt agree with you more...👏👏👏👏
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Old 19th Jun 2020, 12:41
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
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Pretty easy to see how the place has gotten to where it is.

I think youíll find Ďthe greater goodí exists in actually following an agreed contract and not looking for fear based excuses to rationalize undermining it. Which have resulted in the continued decline of conditions over the years. Where people rationalize to themselves theyíre doing the right thing when in reality they are selling out their coworkers (and even their own personal) future.
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Old 19th Jun 2020, 22:52
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
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Anyone notice in the management shuffle we have a new GMA? Discuss.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 02:01
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
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Originally Posted by doolay View Post
Anyone notice in the management shuffle we have a new GMA? Discuss.
Not a whole lot to discuss really. The present incumbent has done his 3 years, which is the average in post. Desig has background in crew management ( albeit cabin crew I think ).
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 05:58
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Originally Posted by Slasher1 View Post
Pretty easy to see how the place has gotten to where it is.

I think youíll find Ďthe greater goodí exists in actually following an agreed contract and not looking for fear based excuses to rationalize undermining it. Which have resulted in the continued decline of conditions over the years. Where people rationalize to themselves theyíre doing the right thing when in reality they are selling out their coworkers (and even their own personal) future.
Again. You are turning this into a ďA scale vs B scale vs C scale vs COS18Ē discussion when itís not. I understand you are worried given the current circumstances. If I was you, I would be worried too. That being said, absolutely no one is advocating for the breaking of contracts just as much as no one is advocating for colleagues to get made redundant. Apart from you maybe. You are talking nonsense and I have taken it upon myself to keep you honest. Youíre welcome.

And by all means, donít take SLS! A company wide scheme that even the people on the lowest salary levels are taking, well done. 👏

Please do tell those pesky 20K a month labourers of your contractual entitlements and how you canít afford a 10% cut for a few months. Pathetic.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 07:41
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: HK
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Originally Posted by Slasher1 View Post
Pretty easy to see how the place has gotten to where it is.

I think youíll find Ďthe greater goodí exists in actually following an agreed contract and not looking for fear based excuses to rationalize undermining it. Which have resulted in the continued decline of conditions over the years. Where people rationalize to themselves theyíre doing the right thing when in reality they are selling out their coworkers (and even their own personal) future.
So are you A scale or just a massive hypocrite?
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 08:19
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Oztrailia
Posts: 2,779
Quite simple.

LAST IN, FIRST OUT.

End of story.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 08:59
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 26
But it might not be as simple as that...have a look what Virgin have done in the UK.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 09:41
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
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Originally Posted by MPPCAG View Post
But it might not be as simple as that...have a look what Virgin have done in the UK.
It wonít be that simple. Force majeure and all that. Weíll know soon.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 11:58
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
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Originally Posted by Fly747 View Post
It wonít be that simple. Force majeure and all that. Weíll know soon.
Yup
Virgin mate very senior 744 Captain. Sorry hereís 3 months redundancy plus a week for every years service all capped at 15 weeks.
They also were last in first out.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 14:00
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Originally Posted by ACMS View Post
Quite simple.

LAST IN, FIRST OUT.

End of story.
Amen and amen!

All this hand wringing makes no sense. We (CX) are at least 1000 pilots too many atm. Why the bottom 1/3 of the list has been employed for the last 6 months is a mystery to me. They arenít needed or, in most cases, actual pilots with relevant experience. Retrain off the 777 fleet if necessary.

All the talk about furloughs from bases and force majeure are nonsense. Seniority is how the industry works, even at CX. This isnít an Asian contract job contrary to some opinions. If CX wants to make it a contract job by force, get ready for lawsuits all over the world and be prepared to have very few (decent) Western expat pilots stay or ever join again.

The low-time brats living in 150m2 of Tung Chung are licking their chops just waiting for the demise of the expat so they can get promoted, as if CX wonít come for them next. Itís so sad and pathetic, and not that much different from the protesters looting and destroying big cities around the world. They want (feel entitled) to something that isnít theirs. Grow up babies! Get out of your mamaís basement and put in the hard yards like the rest of us did. Handouts are not the answer.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 15:39
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Back of Beyond
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150 square metres! Dream on!

In Tung Chung that would be about 15-20 mil hkd (or 1.5 million pounds - 2 million euros). Or 5000 euros per month rent. I think you're talking of square feet monsieur?

Other than that, totally agree with cxorcist.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 15:41
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Originally Posted by Flying Clog View Post
150 square metres! Dream on!

Other than that, totally agree with cxorcist.
Correct, I should have written 50m2.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 16:02
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 26
Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
Amen and amen!

All this hand wringing makes no sense. We (CX) are at least 1000 pilots too many atm. Why the bottom 1/3 of the list has been employed for the last 6 months is a mystery to me. They arenít needed or, in most cases, actual pilots with relevant experience. Retrain off the 777 fleet if necessary.

All the talk about furloughs from bases and force majeure are nonsense. Seniority is how the industry works, even at CX. This isnít an Asian contract job contrary to some opinions. If CX wants to make it a contract job by force, get ready for lawsuits all over the world and be prepared to have very few (decent) Western expat pilots stay or ever join again.

The low-time brats living in 150m2 of Tung Chung are licking their chops just waiting for the demise of the expat so they can get promoted, as if CX wonít come for them next. Itís so sad and pathetic, and not that much different from the protesters looting and destroying big cities around the world. They want (feel entitled) to something that isnít theirs. Grow up babies! Get out of your mamaís basement and put in the hard yards like the rest of us did. Handouts are not the answer.
I'm not wringing my hands Cxorcist. Far from it. I'm a B scale Captain and I can read what's in the contract as well as the next pilot. My point was things might not turn out as you expect or would like them to. Nobody knows.

Virgin Atlantic made pilots redundant on Performance / Disciplinary and then Fleet/Rank in that order. The contract was LIFO and was ignored. The reason Virgin gave was that they didn't have the funds to retrain pilots on to another type yet you suggest this is what CX should be doing at a time they are apparently losing 2.5 to 3 billion HKD a month. So this isn't nonsense, it's what's happening in another airline i.e. 'in the industry' as you put it.

The point I was making was that maybe CX will go down a similar path, that's all. As for lawsuits all over the world, well, that really is nonsense.
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