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CX management. Moral Turpidude

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CX management. Moral Turpidude

Old 13th Jun 2020, 04:02
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Dec 1998
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CX management. Moral Turpidude

I wish to address the current situation. Basically, the failure of CX management to clearly state the facts regarding the current contractual status of the CX pilots contracts demonstrates their complete moral turpitude. It has been almost 4 months now that the company has imposed draconian and oppressive conditions upon their employed pilots (the worst case being that of the Aus based pilots who have seen their pay cut by 50%).

The company has an obligation to clearly explain to their pilots (and their families) what is expected from them on a long term basis. Further, it is obligated that the company should quickly explain what the future of a pilots career at CX entails.

There are hundreds of pilots and their families who are living in a constant state of stress and foreboding. The company needs to quickly bring the current uncertainty to an end.

Our management already knows what is coming. It is now time to inform their pilots what is proposed. Remember: the pilots of this airline have established the reputation and currency of this company. Do not treat that legacy with anything other than respect and consideration.

Do NOT think that you can treat your pilots with contempt and abuse. They will not bow down to anything other than a fair and equitable contract.
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Old 13th Jun 2020, 04:26
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Join Date: May 2020
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That's nice, but....

Everything you wrote makes perfect sense in theory, assuming you completely ignore present day reality.

Come April1st, they will need to let 25-30% of the pilots.

​​​​​They will restructure the airline. They will downsize.

There will be no more arapa. Everyone will be on cos18 on steroids.

You will sign over without complaining because there are no pilot jobs anywhere in the world.

If you think you're not replaceable, you have your head so far up your own rear end, you are truly hopeless.

Stop complaining, be grateful, sit back, relax, and enjoy the Cathay Pacific service.
​​​​​
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Old 13th Jun 2020, 04:48
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Join Date: Apr 2018
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Be careful what you wish for, we've been extremely fortunate thus far. Save as much as you can from those pay cheques that you're still receiving every month in case something dire happens down the line.
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Old 13th Jun 2020, 05:22
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Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Hong Kong
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Just spoke to old colleagues who are now in Virgin and BA. They are facing the same dilemma.
Purely a personal view but it wouldn’t surprise me if airline managers worldwide were at a loss as to how to deal with the situation. Especially those that never had to face serious competition or were in an environment where they had a monopoly?
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Old 13th Jun 2020, 05:30
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: All over
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compared to the rest of the world, cx management have done pretty well. How do you Make solid decisions based on something you have no control over, and no clue which direction it is going...
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Old 13th Jun 2020, 06:00
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Mole give me a break will you. Do you think that BA or EK have done a better job, what about QF and Qatari? You are unbelievable!!!
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Old 13th Jun 2020, 06:32
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Join Date: May 2007
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How about we use that clause in ALL of the pilots contracts about letting people go from the bottom of the ASL, as per the design of the contract.
We are all party to that redundancy clause as the contract is between the pilot and CX/Basing company.
It was blatantly acceptable when the contract was offered/signed, so why are we avoiding it now?
Yes, it is not pleasant for those let go, but it could have happened to any or all of us at the beginning of our time here. That is what seniority is.
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Old 13th Jun 2020, 07:50
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Join Date: Aug 2006
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Whilst certainly far from perfect, CX pilots continue to ride this out better than most others around the world at the moment.

Sure the Aussie bases are the hardest hit, but their comrades at Virgin Australia and QF are on government handouts to pay the bills.

Have your plan B and C ready! It going to be a brave new world out there.
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Old 13th Jun 2020, 09:09
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Join Date: May 2019
Location: usa
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I have to agree with most of what's written here on this thread. CX has definitely done a great job up until now, and honestly they probably trying their best to just get through each day at the moment.

With the injection from the HK government and a second round of SLS we are in good shape until December but then what? All the articles you read online it seems that December will be the month they going to "chop" people, or a better word - restructure.

CX needs to understand that people need to enrol kids into school and sign a new lease etc. They need to engage with the AOA and they need to start communicating with pilots and CC. We as employees need to know what the options are.

I would happily take a 40% paycut for the next 12 months if it meant saving my job and jobs of my friends. As I am sure most of you would. I think the company need to work together with us and find away to keep everyone employed and not just cut our livelihoods by giving us a new COS. We joined to be protected by the ASL, this should be honoured.

There are so many options before pulling the nuclear option. I think we as employees via our union need to explore them. Where is the AOA?

Do you have a solution to this problem, lets list some options to work with the company? Maybe the AOA is reading this!

Last edited by herewego75; 13th Jun 2020 at 09:33.
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Old 13th Jun 2020, 10:05
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I know 4 of my mates in UK,middle E and Europe who are on Furlough now.

They are very down.
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Old 13th Jun 2020, 13:08
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Talking about the union, why is there not clarity about how they will get rid of pilot, are we talking seniority, merit, sick days?
The AOA should have had that on the top of the list of questions they sent to management.

Jesus, big picture guys.

Why arenít they asking us what questions to ask.. are they afraid of the answers?

emirates and ba both disregarding the seniority list, maybe others too, are we going the same way I wonder.

So far the company has been excellent, maybe a little too excellent.. to take 10 months to make corrections to the workforce is quite something in a case like this.
but you have to hand it to them, they want the family to stay together.

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Old 13th Jun 2020, 13:38
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Join Date: Mar 2019
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The GC doesn’t have a clue which way is up. What are you expecting? Disjoint, immoral, self interest. The faithful are blind to reality.
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Old 13th Jun 2020, 14:46
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My criticism is solely directed to the ongoing lack of direction and decision as it pertains to the pilots. This is causing real and unrelenting anxiety to the entire pilot body. I am not suggesting that CX isn't handling the situation effectively, just that they need to announce what their plan is so the rest of us can begin to plan our futures. If anyone thinks we are going to bumble along and come out the other end unscathed...well, can't really help you.
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Old 13th Jun 2020, 15:18
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Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
My criticism is solely directed to the ongoing lack of direction and decision as it pertains to the pilots. This is causing real and unrelenting anxiety to the entire pilot body. I am not suggesting that CX isn't handling the situation effectively, just that they need to announce what their plan is so the rest of us can begin to plan our futures. If anyone thinks we are going to bumble along and come out the other end unscathed...well, can't really help you.
Nobody knows how this is going to go in the next 6-12 months and beyond. Therefore, itís not unreasonable for the CX response to be undefined at this point. However, we all know CX will not need all of its pilots for a long time. Over 18 months+! So why are we continuing to train and drag new joiners along as CX is???

Itís a serious question which demands a serious answer. Donít tell me junior guys on the 747, blah, blah, blah... 777 pilots could easily have been converted by now. We donít need a pipeline of cheap, inexperienced pilots at this point. Itís continuation is a cynical move which assumes this will be paid for by concessions from senior pilots (SLS, etc). I know what my answer is.

Iím not interested in chopping myself and my peers off at the knees. I donít owe NJers and cadets in ADL anything, just as the A scalers didnít owe me anything when I joined. Being new and junior at an airline requires awareness that your training could be cancelled and/or your job could be lost until the airline needs you again. That how seniority works!
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Old 13th Jun 2020, 15:23
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Join Date: Feb 2020
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CX/KA do still have the option of making redundancies, however, in my humble opinion, this will not happen independently from making some other changes to contracts too. Simply because: If you are going to fly a reduced number of aeroplanes, then the salary/ benefits cost will still need to come down too. The talk about closing bases, golden handshake redundancies, last in first out etc are all in the mix. One thing is certain though, staff costs are irrelevant if the planes are grounded, hence the call to get the company to make its mind up soon. USD5 billion is nothing if you’re loosing 0.3 a month.

As for the AOA, just remind me of anytime this outfit has ever been successful in anything since 1993. They can tell us how to manage loneliness during lockdown, but they are not asking or engaging us in any meaningful discussion regarding our own, and their future.

Lets ask them to tell us what the company told them in their recent meeting, that’s a start.
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Old 13th Jun 2020, 16:37
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"The company has an obligation to clearly explain to their pilots (and their families) what is expected from them on a long term basis. Further, it is obligated that the company should quickly explain what the future of a pilots career at CX entails."

I doubt you have that in writing...............
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Old 13th Jun 2020, 19:13
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Join Date: Apr 2019
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Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
Nobody knows how this is going to go in the next 6-12 months and beyond. Therefore, itís not unreasonable for the CX response to be undefined at this point. However, we all know CX will not need all of its pilots for a long time. Over 18 months+! So why are we continuing to train and drag new joiners along as CX is???

Itís a serious question which demands a serious answer. Donít tell me junior guys on the 747, blah, blah, blah... 777 pilots could easily have been converted by now. We donít need a pipeline of cheap, inexperienced pilots at this point. Itís continuation is a cynical move which assumes this will be paid for by concessions from senior pilots (SLS, etc). I know what my answer is.

Iím not interested in chopping myself and my peers off at the knees. I donít owe NJers and cadets in ADL anything, just as the A scalers didnít owe me anything when I joined. Being new and junior at an airline requires awareness that your training could be cancelled and/or your job could be lost until the airline needs you again. That how seniority works!
more clueless posts. I can think of over 40 airlines where layoffs by seniority havenít been followed in the current economic climate. You are aware of this virus arenít you, you donít just think it a recession......
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 02:36
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Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
My criticism is solely directed to the ongoing lack of direction and decision as it pertains to the pilots. This is causing real and unrelenting anxiety to the entire pilot body. I am not suggesting that CX isn't handling the situation effectively, just that they need to announce what their plan is so the rest of us can begin to plan our futures. If anyone thinks we are going to bumble along and come out the other end unscathed...well, can't really help you.

...and there is the reason that many people disagree with you. Do you think that it maybe, just a little bit, perhaps, comes across as somewhat ARROGANT?

Has it occurred to you that there are, worldwide, people numbering in 10^8 (that's x00,000,000) who are currently or soon to be unemployed as a result of the shutdowns / lockdowns?

Yet all we hear from you is "...pilots, pilots, pilots. They owe us this, they are obligated to give us that." What about EVERYONE ELSE in the compan(y/ies) who also need to plan for their future?

I am not apologizing for nor defending CX (or any) management in any way. But seriously...

Ferchrissakes get a grip. It is not all about you pilots.
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 02:48
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Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
My criticism is solely directed to the ongoing lack of direction and decision as it pertains to the pilots. This is causing real and unrelenting anxiety to the entire pilot body. I am not suggesting that CX isn't handling the situation effectively, just that they need to announce what their plan is so the rest of us can begin to plan our futures. If anyone thinks we are going to bumble along and come out the other end unscathed...well, can't really help you.
I would like to think that applies to the entire airline group staff, not just pilots.... there's a Chinese saying that translate to 'instead of an agonising long term painful death, might as well just slit the throat now', everyone employed in the group would be anxious because of that blabbing by the company week in week out. People would be looking at worldwide news everyday, and see EK, Qatar, Etihad all these massive oil-rich countries shedding staff from all across, BA threatening to fire everyone etc, yet the company seem to be doing so little to preserve cash, which is contrary to what they say in the propaganda every week. And with the history of the company, everyone knows something's going to be up (or down), but the wait and dragging along does not help people planning their life. The false sense of security is probably going to do more harm than good for some staff.
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 03:12
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Originally Posted by 1_of_600 View Post
...and there is the reason that many people disagree with you. Do you think that it maybe, just a little bit, perhaps, comes across as somewhat ARROGANT?

Has it occurred to you that there are, worldwide, people numbering in 10^8 (that's x00,000,000) who are currently or soon to be unemployed as a result of the shutdowns / lockdowns?

Yet all we hear from you is "...pilots, pilots, pilots. They owe us this, they are obligated to give us that." What about EVERYONE ELSE in the compan(y/ies) who also need to plan for their future?

I am not apologizing for nor defending CX (or any) management in any way. But seriously...

Ferchrissakes get a grip. It is not all about you pilots.
Precisley.

This whole situation is such an unknown that any information the company or AOA give you today would be outdated tomorrow. Weíre actually closer to a depression than a recession. In 1929 a worker doing one hour of work a week was considered unemployed. In 2020 he is countered in the employed column. It doesnít feel like a depression yet as many of us are still the recipients of money for doing nothing, whether from companies or from governments. That source of income will soon be turned off for many, if not most.

How will the company determine which excessive staff will be let go? That question has been asked and answered on the AOA website. The answer may be cryptic, but only confusing if you donít understand management speak.


Last edited by Progress Wanchai; 14th Jun 2020 at 11:19.
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