Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

CMP and JCR

Old 21st May 2019, 05:19
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HKG
Posts: 137
CMP / JCR is not about us. Its only purpose is to get more hours out of crew for less money. It could have been a win - win, except this is Cathay. In Hong Kong in general everyone is happy to screw over someone else to get ahead. CX Management take this attitude as a point of pride. Compounding our problems are the local staff who can't think outside the box and are also happy to screw over crew.

It is critical that we refuse to work unsafe duties and submit an ASR-F. We must also report all controlled rest events. The company has already approached HKCAD to increase our flight hours from 900 to 1000. The only thing that prevented this was CAD concerns re our fatigue levels.

CMP gives them the tools to really screw us over. In the interests of safety and our health we must push back when appropriate.

2 pilot, 2 sector through the night? Can Not!
controlledrest is offline  
Old 21st May 2019, 10:12
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 47
Posts: 63
What happened to the idea that those who went into training because they were "forced" would have to file a grievance with CX if they wanted to stay in the AOA ? seemed like a good idea to me?
stevieboy330 is offline  
Old 21st May 2019, 15:15
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Asia
Posts: 105
None of those clowns were forced.
Dilbert68 is offline  
Old 21st May 2019, 15:44
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1,877
Originally Posted by Dilbert68 View Post
None of those clowns were forced.
... and what of the existing trainers whom will train these new, scab trainers? Not exactly blameless!!!! Itís bad enough that they train their much cheaper replacements every day.
cxorcist is offline  
Old 21st May 2019, 22:49
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 392
right, cxorcist. So if it wasn't for 200 pilots who insist on remaining trainers all would be fine? Ignore that the vast majority (170 or so) were themselves "cheaper replacements" when they joined. The training ban is a flawed strategy (as is the way we are doing contract compliance).

Ever more strident calls to "win" or "hold the line" by doing either or both of these "harder" or "better" or "more intensely" are crap: the GC needs to start with a blank page.

We (rightly, I think) mock the company's new slogan, but at least they have attempted, however poorly, to have an update - where's ours? On the industrial side we are seeing the very worst of unionism - stale, entrenched, typified by infighting, and unable to move forward ("beyond"). The GC is a bunch of volunteers, time poor and doing their utter best to cope, inundated by the necessary daily domestic tasks and trivia that need attending to.

TH is doing a good job holding things together, but we need another ND (for all his flaws) if you want to see some unity and leadership.
OK4Wire is offline  
Old 21st May 2019, 23:19
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1,877
Can you imagine having all the power and refusing to use it, even in the gravest of circumstances? That essentially defines CX trainers. Short of a strike that wonít happen because the HKAOA is poorly led with a weak kneed membership and the illegality of strikes on the bases; trainers are the last hope. Too bad they are even more spineless than the HKAOA GC and the membership that elected it. Irregardless, training your cheaper replacements is just plain dumb. Youíll never catch me doing that.
cxorcist is offline  
Old 22nd May 2019, 00:28
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: hong kong
Posts: 86
Yet because the general membership is not strong enough to strike , you want / expect the trainers to fight on your behalf .
you want them to quit and take the brunt of whatever the company decides to retaliate with . Sorry but everyone must come to the party you cannot expect one small group to fight on your behalf .
cannot is offline  
Old 22nd May 2019, 01:12
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: www
Posts: 487
In most mature, first world airlines, ALL the pilots decide they will stop work on the same day. They don't impose a special obligation on one group or another. If and when the AOA holds a strike vote, I will be there. Until then, trying to guilt trip one particular group is singularly opportunistic and crass. If we hold a strike, I for one will honour it.
Apple Tree Yard is offline  
Old 22nd May 2019, 01:16
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1,877
Originally Posted by cannot View Post
Yet because the general membership is not strong enough to strike , you want / expect the trainers to fight on your behalf .
you want them to quit and take the brunt of whatever the company decides to retaliate with . Sorry but everyone must come to the party you cannot expect one small group to fight on your behalf .
I simply want them to do the right thing. Itís actually not complex, despite efforts to justify training cheaper pilots and new scab trainers. But we all know they wonít, why? Because they are selfish and/or narcissistic.
cxorcist is offline  
Old 22nd May 2019, 03:43
  #30 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 49
Posts: 212
Why not get all the FO's to go sick . That's the same as the trainers. Or the captain's for that matter. That is essentially what your wanting to do.

It's really stupid and really flawed. To do either requires 100% unity. Something that has never been displayed not during the 49ers. I mean seriously if everybody downed tools on that news that 49 people were sacked. There would have been no drawn out Court case. No union compensation fund. It would have been resolved in a week. It's not hard to get a sick note for a week if you really want one especially in this day and age of stress and divorce and Family issues, coupled with fatigue or general tiredness.

I am sorry to be a realist but the union is ironic because as the name suggests it's the opposite of what we are. Just resign from the union if your not happy. Then take your forced training position. Retire early or sell your skills to some other carrier.

But don't pin your hopes on people being United to fix the glaring problems that exist in plain sight.

It's over... Time to win and move beyond.

Last edited by RAT Management; 22nd May 2019 at 03:54.
RAT Management is offline  
Old 22nd May 2019, 04:18
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1,877
Actually, Iím not asking the trainers to take any unified action as a group. All Iím asking them to do is the right thing. They know they are enabling the degradation of all our careers by selfishly doing something that is 100% voluntary, now and in the past. They disgust me, and they will never have my respect, only inauthenticity as I renew my license. Iíll nod my head and take little notes, but thereís no respect. None!
cxorcist is offline  
Old 22nd May 2019, 05:44
  #32 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 49
Posts: 212
Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
Actually, Iím not asking the trainers to take any unified action as a group. All Iím asking them to do is the right thing. They know they are enabling the degradation of all our careers by selfishly doing something that is 100% voluntary, now and in the past. They disgust me, and they will never have my respect, only inauthenticity as I renew my license. Iíll nod my head and take little notes, but thereís no respect. None!
without prejudice:
Well maybe your looking at this from the wrong side of the fence. The trainers are training because they are happy to train and they are happy with their pay and conditions. They do not have to play judge jury and executioner for those that "choose" to join on whatever their package is. To say you have no respect for them leaves little respect for you and your attitude. Market forces will ultimately dictate your pay and conditions. The world over is seeing decreasing salaries for increased workload. I am not saying it's right. But the next time you sit next to me and take controlled rest because you weren't adequately rested for your duty instead of taking yourself off that duty, then you should ask who deserves the respect. Ask yourself how many times you have called in sick/fatigued down route and delayed a flight due to not being rested or whatever. If the answer is less than 5 in the last 4 years then it's ultimately you who has less respect deserved from your fellow crew members. If your "pushing through" then you sir are the one single handedly allowing the degrading conditions you so blame the trainers for.

Stop blaming others and be professional about what your licence mandates of you. If the conditions are such that there is doubt in your ability to complete the duty you MUST NOT FLY. It's as simple as that. You and everyone else in this organisation is the enemy and until we actually get professional not in the sense the company expects ( to complete the duty ) but of that what our passengers expect, a fit healthy well rested crew capable of completing the normal duty as well as any emergency you can think of.

I am not pointing fingers but merely starting the obvious as ASRF's are exponentially increasing with the introduction of CMP but the same notorious patterns are still being rostered and crewed with minimal reaction to the reports from the crews.

The cabin crew don't use ASRF for patterns that are too hard. They take a different approach that works. I don't see them doing the same layovers as flight crew even though their aftls are the same as ours.

RAT Management is offline  
Old 22nd May 2019, 14:35
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1,877
Originally Posted by RAT Management View Post
without prejudice:
Well maybe your looking at this from the wrong side of the fence. The trainers are training because they are happy to train and they are happy with their pay and conditions. They do not have to play judge jury and executioner for those that "choose" to join on whatever their package is. To say you have no respect for them leaves little respect for you and your attitude. Market forces will ultimately dictate your pay and conditions. The world over is seeing decreasing salaries for increased workload. I am not saying it's right. But the next time you sit next to me and take controlled rest because you weren't adequately rested for your duty instead of taking yourself off that duty, then you should ask who deserves the respect. Ask yourself how many times you have called in sick/fatigued down route and delayed a flight due to not being rested or whatever. If the answer is less than 5 in the last 4 years then it's ultimately you who has less respect deserved from your fellow crew members. If your "pushing through" then you sir are the one single handedly allowing the degrading conditions you so blame the trainers for.

Stop blaming others and be professional about what your licence mandates of you. If the conditions are such that there is doubt in your ability to complete the duty you MUST NOT FLY. It's as simple as that. You and everyone else in this organisation is the enemy and until we actually get professional not in the sense the company expects ( to complete the duty ) but of that what our passengers expect, a fit healthy well rested crew capable of completing the normal duty as well as any emergency you can think of.

I am not pointing fingers but merely starting the obvious as ASRF's are exponentially increasing with the introduction of CMP but the same notorious patterns are still being rostered and crewed with minimal reaction to the reports from the crews.

The cabin crew don't use ASRF for patterns that are too hard. They take a different approach that works. I don't see them doing the same layovers as flight crew even though their aftls are the same as ours.
Wow! A lot of assumptions in there. I sure hope you donít drag a similar batch of assumptions into all your checking and training events. That would be the epitome of unprofessional.

Anyone, yes anyone, who trains their cheaper replacements deserves the Darwin Award. You, sir, are self-selecting your own demise. Maybe, you get away and retire before the day of reckoning. If so, good for you, but what of those you leave behind? Do you care? I can only assume not.
cxorcist is offline  
Old 23rd May 2019, 06:17
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 392
anyone, who trains their cheaper replacements deserves the Darwin Award
I say again: 170 of the current 200 trainers ARE themselves cheaper replacements - was it okay for them to get trained onto the line, but they mustn't train any others, is that right? So, just one level of cheapness, but not 2 or 3?


But yes, A scalers (of CX, BA and QF) deserve the Darwin award, cos they had so much power.
OK4Wire is offline  
Old 23rd May 2019, 15:05
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1,877
Originally Posted by OK4Wire View Post
I say again: 170 of the current 200 trainers ARE themselves cheaper replacements - was it okay for them to get trained onto the line, but they mustn't train any others, is that right? So, just one level of cheapness, but not 2 or 3?


But yes, A scalers (of CX, BA and QF) deserve the Darwin award, cos they had so much power.
Yes, the Darwin Award! How many A scalers are around today? 10-15 years from now, it will be the same with B. For being ďthe best and the brightestĒ at CX, you trainers really are dumb!

OK4wire, your moral relativity is a weakness.
cxorcist is offline  
Old 23rd May 2019, 15:10
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Greener Pastures
Posts: 56
Originally Posted by RAT Management View Post
without prejudice:
But the next time you sit next to me and take controlled rest because you weren't adequately rested for your duty instead of taking yourself off that duty, then you should ask who deserves the respect. Ask yourself how many times you have called in sick/fatigued down route and delayed a flight due to not being rested or whatever. If the answer is less than 5 in the last 4 years then it's ultimately you who has less respect deserved from your fellow crew members. If your "pushing through" then you sir are the one single handedly allowing the degrading conditions you so blame the trainers for.

Stop blaming others and be professional about what your licence mandates of you. If the conditions are such that there is doubt in your ability to complete the duty you MUST NOT FLY. It's as simple as that. .
So are you suggesting that taking controlled rest is somehow unprofessional?
Roy De Kantzow is offline  
Old 24th May 2019, 01:34
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong, SAR.
Posts: 548
If it is relied upon before signing on for a duty, I would call it unprofessional.
Oasis is offline  
Old 24th May 2019, 09:53
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Greener Pastures
Posts: 56
I have previously called in unfit for duty when I have been unable to rest, or my cumulative fatigue is so great that I am in no fit state to operate.

However, one can never say for certain that controlled rest may be needed.

When beginning a duty at 1am body clock, one may feel OK. Then lo and behold a couple of hours later, the body crashes and needs sleep, so controlled rest is taken.

I use controlled rest not because I'm unprofessional, but because I'm a human. I use it to protect myself from fatigue and its long term affects. I fully encourage the use of as much controlled rest as possible. At the end of the day you get one shot at life, and I am sure there are studies proving that irregular sleep is bad for your health. Being a hero and staying up all night, is kinda daft in my view. Controlled rest makes me feel better, and I have no qualms about using it. Regardless of how well you rest in the time prior to flight, the body's circadian rhythm still functions. I would argue using controlled rest is more professional than not, as it increases the body's ability to deal with problems and reduces fatigue.
Roy De Kantzow is offline  
Old 24th May 2019, 14:51
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1,877
Originally Posted by Roy De Kantzow View Post
I have previously called in unfit for duty when I have been unable to rest, or my cumulative fatigue is so great that I am in no fit state to operate.

However, one can never say for certain that controlled rest may be needed.

When beginning a duty at 1am body clock, one may feel OK. Then lo and behold a couple of hours later, the body crashes and needs sleep, so controlled rest is taken.

I use controlled rest not because I'm unprofessional, but because I'm a human. I use it to protect myself from fatigue and its long term affects. I fully encourage the use of as much controlled rest as possible. At the end of the day you get one shot at life, and I am sure there are studies proving that irregular sleep is bad for your health. Being a hero and staying up all night, is kinda daft in my view. Controlled rest makes me feel better, and I have no qualms about using it. Regardless of how well you rest in the time prior to flight, the body's circadian rhythm still functions. I would argue using controlled rest is more professional than not, as it increases the body's ability to deal with problems and reduces fatigue.
Absolutely correct! That RAT brings this up as an issue is a ridiculous red herring. Must be covering for something else. Wonder what that might be???
cxorcist is offline  
Old 24th May 2019, 23:13
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HKG
Posts: 137
The aircraft we currently operate are certified for 2 crew, not 1. Taking controlled rest is operating the aircraft outside its certification.

The need for controlled rest is more often than not a by-product of the way we are rostered. Back when we flew to 700 hours rather than 900 I never felt the need for controlled rest.

It really pisses me off when someone takes controlled rest and then doesn't report it. If fatigue isn't a problem as far as the company and regulator are concerned things will only get worse. With the new controlled rest report form it doesn't take long. If everyone reported when they actually took controlled rest HKCAD would realise how badly CX addresses fatigue.

CX does a piss poor job of educating new joiners on fatigue management. I had to do my own research to learn what works best for me. I paid for my own copy of CrewAlertPro to assist with my sleep management.

If you take controlled rest REPORT IT.
controlledrest is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.