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So if itís so bad....why arenít you all quitting?

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

So if itís so bad....why arenít you all quitting?

Old 4th Dec 2018, 20:33
  #121 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 78
Originally Posted by morningcoffee View Post

Going off the starting pay at jetstar on the 320 after a newbie had survived GA, they could borrow $460k on a 30 year. That would get them a 1 br apt in Melbourne.
Almost.

Every man and his dog is getting off the AirNZ shortHAUL fleet, meanwhile CX pilots quit to sign up on the 320 in droves.

Still waiting to hear a good paying, reasonable days off flying job.
Try just about any US major. Including LCCs like Spirit (who will pay better than Capt's on on POS 18 -- while living in relatively low cost areas of the US).
Slasher1 is offline  
Old 4th Dec 2018, 23:14
  #122 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: At Home
Posts: 146
Originally Posted by morningcoffee View Post

77 hrs a month the 320 fleet is averaging and itís a 50 minute sector AKL WLG. Slightly longer to CHC. Iíve seen the roster and it ainít pretty.
You think itís one return WLG and then 4 days off? Post a 320 roster then.....Air NZ can work you like a dog because you canít complain, itís the only gig in town.

Training pay for the first 6 months when you join is $20k a year, bwahahaha and guys line up to take it.
Originally Posted by morningcoffee View Post
I couldnít care whoís going, Iím just saying that they can pay whatever they want, roster you whatever they want and guys will sign up. You can go on about a sh*t deal at CX but the fact is aviation is a sh*t deal everywhere.
Best part is you think $40K a year under training is a great deal, and it only last 2 months. Ground school, sims, line training, checks in 2 months? It used to be no pay during training and still guys signed up. End of the day guys will join the Koru irrespective of Air NZís lousy pay and roster. Nothing CX can do to change that.
Training Pay is currently $56k and 2 months in accurate.
You're only on training pay during your initial induction and Type Rating. Line training is on Full Pay.
My highest sector count in the last 3 years on the A320 was 45. Mostly Domestic and was 75hrs.... believe it or not, we don't only fly to WLG and CHC.
Have had a few rosters in the low 80's but they had a lot more Tasman/Pacific sectors. Averaging about 65hrs at the moment.
The rosters get better with Seniority as your bidding power improves. Even a Junior Pilot who understands the system can bid to avoid certain characteristics with moderate success. Just don't waste your points on desirable specific TOD's you know you wont get.

All Shorthual jobs you work like a dog. That's the nature of shorthaul. You need more sectors for the same hours. For many, the Airbus might just be a foot in the door before bidding to a Widebody. I doubt anyone leaving the likes of Cx to join the bottom of our list are expecting a payrise.

We've all got friends everywhere.... I've got friends at Cx, I've seen their rosters. Yes, in many ways they're better than mine with Air NZ on the A320, but as they say "At least you're not living in HKG".... on a Widebody, I could live in Wanaka if wanted. Plenty do.
ElZilcho is offline  
Old 5th Dec 2018, 02:31
  #123 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The Cesspit
Posts: 227
.
Originally Posted by morningcoffee View Post

Going off the starting pay at jetstar on the 320 after a newbie had survived GA, they could borrow $460k on a 30 year. That would get them a 1 br apt in Melbourne.
Almost.

Every man and his dog is getting off the AirNZ shortHAUL fleet, meanwhile CX pilots quit to sign up on the 320 in droves.

Still waiting to hear a good paying, reasonable days off flying job.


MC, a few posts ago you claimed that in Melbourne “under a million buys you sweet fu*k all”. This highlights your elitist arrogant management view of the world. I’m guessing you view “Melbourne” as south of the Yarra in the leafy Eastern suburbs or inner city along the bay. In fact average asking prices for Melbourne houses is $963,200 and units $555,800 (source. “The Australian” 4/12/18)

Within a daily commuting distance of Melbourne Airport are some lovely towns where for your $460k you can purchase a 3 bedroom house, lock up garage where you can keep your car to drive yourself to work, alongside it is your boat, motorbike, golf clubs and the kids bicycles which they use to ride themselves to their free school that required no interview, no debenture and no waiting list. Out the back is the pool and bbq in a landscaped setting with the veggie patch and fruit trees while out the front the Mrs has her roses.
Sure, your jetstar pilot may not get as many days off in a month (mind you, don’t forget he’s accumulating long service leave) as your average Cathay SO/FO, but what’s the point in days off when you’re staring at the 4 walls of your rented Tung Chung shoe box listening to construction noises breathing in Chinese pollution watching your Mrs and kids slowly going mad?

There’s other secondary factors to also consider rather than the standard “money, lifestyle and days off”. Working in a country with first world labor laws, on an enforceable detailed contract rather than amendable company policy, working for an airline that promotes a “Heath and Wellness Program” rather than enforces a “Sickness and Absent Management Program”, or an airline that has never sacked 49 of its pilots for no better reason than to show the remaining pilots that it can.

Here’s the thing MC. Neither you nor I or even Cathay management get to decide what a market competitive employment package looks like. The market decides.
So I’ll ask you for the third time. If the employment package that CX offer is market competitive, why are the pilots who are leaving for other airlines not being replaced in equal number by pilots leaving those airlines for CX?
Progress Wanchai is offline  
Old 5th Dec 2018, 04:14
  #124 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Lo cat ion
Posts: 21
Perhaps the Pilots who are joining CX currently, donít consider a 3 bedroom house with garage and a motorcycle as an aspiration to them?

However, An apartment with 500 mB download connection may well in the future be more desirable than thundering around on a grimey bike? High speed access is Common in HK but not so much the acres of burbs in Oz?


Society is changing . We all notice it . New joiners have changed. Contract and cash isnít important to them. They have mun & dads cash . They donít want trouble . Chill out over Instagram. Relax and have a smoothie . Stay in at night and chit chat to 5am with buddies. Then go to work 3 hours later.

The problem is that few 20 somethings can self regulate. They need oodles of regulations , SOPs and policies . Our brave new world.
captain8 is offline  
Old 5th Dec 2018, 08:31
  #125 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Krug departure, Merlot transition
Posts: 499
Originally Posted by morningcoffee View Post

Every man and his dog is getting off the AirNZ shortHAUL fleet, meanwhile CX pilots quit to sign up on the 320 in droves.
Precisely MC. What does that tell you?
main_dog is offline  
Old 7th Dec 2018, 13:23
  #126 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ferrara
Posts: 297
So will someone tell us exactly when all these pilots are going to leave and CX will be unable to operate?

Sounds like engineers at Saudi Aramco to me - 30 years of moaning and bitching but they still stay in the sand-pit because TBH the money & conditions are still better than they'd get elsewhere......................
Asturias56 is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2018, 05:38
  #127 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Rosterabuseland
Posts: 32
Already happening Astrias - 120+/- in the 1st quarter of 2018, consistently approx 6-10pm thereafter with another 40 having just handed their notice in Oct due to leave in Jan. The numbers are staggering considering historically you only left CX via retirement or medical. I'm told (2nd hand so take that as you like) - that they are not counting the "over 50's" in the resignation count but placing them into the "early retirements" category. As to when CX will stop - never - they would rather operate 1 aircraft losing money than accept the position they face - denial denial denial. Cannot lose face!
petrichor is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2018, 06:32
  #128 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 632
Several more just given confirmation of their course dates with Virgin Atlantic. Met one on Thursday, and he can't wait to get to Vr out of HK in the next few weeks.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2018, 06:45
  #129 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 47
Odd that when VR pilots are proposing action over non recognition of union representation.
frying pan - fire?
Staggers is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2018, 06:50
  #130 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 339
Originally Posted by Staggers View Post
Odd that when VR pilots are proposing action over non recognition of union representation.
frying pan - fire?
Only some will strike. This is to force VS management to recognise a second union group in negotiations. With A350's and more 787's arriving VS will snap up type rated pilots.

VS to use CX A350 sim from mext week for conversions.

CX running out of steam. Out of 3x 777 sims there is only 1x 4 hour session rostered for 25th. How's that for utilisation ?

Last edited by unitedabx; 8th Dec 2018 at 06:55. Reason: addition
unitedabx is offline  
Old 8th Dec 2018, 21:52
  #131 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 150
Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
Only some will strike. This is to force VS management to recognise a second union group in negotiations. With A350's and more 787's arriving VS will snap up type rated pilots.

VS to use CX A350 sim from mext week for conversions.

CX running out of steam. Out of 3x 777 sims there is only 1x 4 hour session rostered for 25th. How's that for utilisation ?
So you want as many crew as possible rostered a sim duty on Christmas day? Because that gives you something to bitch about?
morningcoffee is offline  
Old 9th Dec 2018, 01:01
  #132 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: HONG KONG
Posts: 81
morningcoffee you are a [email protected], just piss off
Brown Nose is offline  
Old 9th Dec 2018, 04:36
  #133 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 339
Originally Posted by morningcoffee View Post
So you want as many crew as possible rostered a sim duty on Christmas day? Because that gives you something to bitch about?
NO MC. I want the entire 25th free of sim duties for all and the F****wit who rostered it made to come into work that day and sit around and do nothing. Are you DOM that day ? Thought not.
unitedabx is offline  
Old 9th Dec 2018, 04:43
  #134 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Atlanta
Age: 51
Posts: 164
Originally Posted by Slasher1 View Post
Try just about any US major. Including LCCs like Spirit (who will pay better than Capt's on on POS 18 -- while living in relatively low cost areas of the US).
No clue what you guys are making, but:
5 years at Spirit, upgraded 2 years ago.
Before tax around $200K
Full control of my schedule, have had xmas and new year off even as a new captain.
work around 15 days a month, mostly 4 on 4 off (by choice), most of those are 1 or 2 leg nights (by choice, for easier commute)..
2 week vacation, good medical, LTD, retirement.
Also we are just about the worst paid in the USA....
hans brinker is offline  
Old 9th Dec 2018, 06:24
  #135 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 632
MorningCoffee....the management gift that just keeps on giving. I hope you stick around for MANY years.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 9th Dec 2018, 23:32
  #136 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 150
Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post

CX running out of steam. Out of 3x 777 sims there is only 1x 4 hour session rostered for 25th. How's that for utilisation ?
Is what you said. Lots to bitch about at CX, foaming at the mouth over a couple of Xmas rostered duties isnít too smart.

Plenty of LCC do their sims on G days.....
morningcoffee is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2018, 01:06
  #137 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Asia
Age: 51
Posts: 2,589
MC, not in Hong Kong they don't. The same AFTL's that apply to us apply to them. If you're comparing us to the likes of Lion Air? Well there's reason why the LCC's in Asia have so many accidents and incidents.
404 Titan is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2018, 04:07
  #138 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 632
MC, you are an insufferable fool. The only employees who should HAVE to work over Christmas are those operating the aircraft and necessary ground support functions. There is NO excuse to roster ground duties (simulators, classroom events) over important family holidays such as Christmas, NY or Thanksgiving (for Americans). The company just proves their complete absence of due care and concern for their employees when they continue to violate that common courtesy and responsibility towards the welfare of their employees and their families. Management like yourself are the reason this airline is in such trouble. You go ahead however and continue to suggest we are the problem, while meanwhile Rome burns around you. Pathetic.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2018, 22:08
  #139 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 150
Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
MC, you are an insufferable fool. The only employees who should HAVE to work over Christmas are those operating the aircraft and necessary ground support functions. There is NO excuse to roster ground duties (simulators, classroom events) over important family holidays such as Christmas, NY or Thanksgiving (for Americans). The company just proves their complete absence of due care and concern for their employees when they continue to violate that common courtesy and responsibility towards the welfare of their employees and their families. Management like yourself are the reason this airline is in such trouble. You go ahead however and continue to suggest we are the problem, while meanwhile Rome burns around you. Pathetic.
If you had the capacity you'd read the post and see that your best buddy Unitedabix was complaining about underutilisation of the sims and had picked the 25th Dec to illustrate how inefficient this was. So which is it??????? The company is inefficient, just look at Christmas or it shouldn't roster on the 25th because it's Christmas.
morningcoffee is offline  
Old 10th Dec 2018, 23:00
  #140 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Hong kong
Posts: 94
MC , I take your point on this one issue , but in general you remind me of Nancy Pelosi , if you aren’t aware of who she is look up some of her utterances. I would just like to know how many management pilots or staff are operating on Christmas Day and Boxing Day .
i would venture a guess at a big fat zero , because spending time with your family is important and of course you deserve it because 8-5 5 days a week excluding public holidays is monstrously tiring .
The main issue that I see with you and your cubical cronies is that you all seem to be blissfully unaware that there is a huge problem with the moral of the pilots which gets progressively worse with each insult from the CEO . Sooner or later the numbers heading for the exit door will cripple the operation . Maybe not in the next few months but it is getting worse .
Personally I would like the entire pilot workforce to stop work tomorrow , have Christmas and New Year off . It’s getting to the state that I really don’t care if I’m employed by Cathay or not . The job isn’t what it used to be , so if I lost it so be it . At least I would have gone down fighting instead of waiting to be run over again and again. Or become like the dog cowering in the corner trembling in anticipation of the next beating .
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