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So if itís so bad....why arenít you all quitting?

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

So if itís so bad....why arenít you all quitting?

Old 14th Nov 2018, 06:48
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HK
Posts: 646
Originally Posted by humbleppl View Post
There is light at the end of the tunnel. Am following the grilling of CX management live... Be assured Swire will now take action and get rid of many of them. Slosar seriously stated that in hindsight, it was not good to delay the disclosure of the hacking for so long. Wow, anyone with so little foresight, believing to get away with hiding, lying and deceiving, is good for cleaning toilets, nothing else; apologies though to all toilet cleaners with integrity!

update from the grilling of Slosar:The Cathay CEO hints that the airline will keep passengers happy with vague promises of "special offers that people can get excited about"

wow... chocolate to the kids in this kindergarten company... This is the Chairman of a previous leading world airline...
Yay - he will lower ticket prices. Wonder what cost cutting will be expected to follow.
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Old 14th Nov 2018, 07:27
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
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Originally Posted by Freehills View Post
Yay - he will lower ticket prices. Wonder what cost cutting will be expected to follow.
Maybe he'll re-introduce peanuts in Y.
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Old 14th Nov 2018, 07:42
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hong Kong
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BA (itself a victim of hacking earlier this year; yet handling it in a very professional way) has reacted aggressively; slashing ticket prices by almost half; selling a c- class return ticket from anywhere in Europe to HKG for under HK$ 18,000.--. At least some good news for the customer.

And CX: again self inflicted problems (Slosar called it the worst crisis CX has ever been in; worse than SARS), consequently declining customer confidence (and the fact that cockpit and cabin crew data were also hacked has not even been made public yet) and now the competition using this as an easy chance to get new customers; soon CX staff will have to suffer again from cost savings.
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Old 14th Nov 2018, 08:56
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Originally Posted by Jnr380 View Post
No, a professional moves sideways or a step up within their field when they move companies.

I dont see doctors going from being a consultant back down to intern, r.
Live by seniority, die by seniority. It protects you and your years of service.

An experienced CX captain should have no difficulty finding a DEC with a European or Asian based airline .
However, and rightly so, they will be at the bottom of the heap.

Which of course is the real reason the old long sleves are sticking with the sinking ship. At least CX medical still covers Hip replacements
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Old 14th Nov 2018, 10:07
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: Australia
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Originally Posted by Krone View Post

Live by seniority, die by seniority. It protects you and your years of service.
Protects you? From what? Continual degrading terms and conditions 😂
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Old 14th Nov 2018, 13:07
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
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Originally Posted by Krone View Post


Live by seniority, die by seniority. It protects you and your years of service.

An experienced CX captain should have no difficulty finding a DEC with a European or Asian based airline .
However, and rightly so, they will be at the bottom of the heap.

Which of course is the real reason the old long sleves are sticking with the sinking ship. At least CX medical still covers Hip replacements
A DEC in Europe, no chance. Every European airline has a seniority list and you join at the bottom as an FO. If they then rapidly promote you th the LHS due experience levels then that is another matter.
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Old 14th Nov 2018, 13:12
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
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Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
A DEC in Europe, no chance. Every European airline has a seniority list and you join at the bottom as an FO. If they then rapidly promote you th the LHS due experience levels then that is another matter.
LCCs in Europe have no seniority lists and all of them are hiring DEC.

​​​​​​​not seeing many CX captains applying though
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Old 14th Nov 2018, 13:38
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
A DEC in Europe, no chance. Every European airline has a seniority list and you join at the bottom as an FO. If they then rapidly promote you th the LHS due experience levels then that is another matter.
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. A large proportion of FO's currently resigning from European operators are doing it to take DEC's with others.
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Old 14th Nov 2018, 14:13
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
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Originally Posted by quadspeed View Post
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. A large proportion of FO's currently resigning from European operators are doing it to take DEC's with others.
Iíll add to that, many NAM seniority based airlines have massive retirement ladders and/or growth such that junior commands on narrowbody fleets are achievable after a few years. The problem is making the math$ work beforehand for pilots with families and financial obligations.
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Old 14th Nov 2018, 15:27
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
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I think the answer to the OP comes in the form of seniority (one can argue pros and cons till the cows come home but it is the way it is and I don't think anyone has found a better way to do it) and when to cut your losses.

The Las Vegas syndrome is alive and well (i.e. when do I cut my losses and move on) with people believing they are due for a 'win' even though there's no rational reason to believe this is true. Still, it's a powerful human force not wanting to dump all that seniority and start over. In fact, I'm sure the company banks on this to string people along while spinning up their replacements. I can't fathom how anyone can believe they might wind up on a base at this point (the ONLY way this might happen is if EVERYTHING else fails--POS 18 doesn't attract refugee pilots, DEC's and DEFOs on whatever terms in HKG fails, individually negotiated extension contracts fail, etc -- and this will take years as it already has to figure out -- all the while one is dumping precious seniority elsewhere). And I can't fathom how one can expect a 'win' in things getting better when the overwhelming trajectory has been rapidly downward.

To me, it seems the 'break' point is around 50-ish. Below this, IMHO, one would be absolutely nuts to stay one day more than necessary to find a new job wherever (unless he or she were figuring on a few years working in aviation then going into a wholly different career field). Above this, it becomes a matter of making life fun and manageable and minimizing work's impact on life while getting ready for early retirement (socking away money at the higher scales in the process while also fixing up oneself addressing previously 'deferred maintenance' which needs to be done on the body).

In any case, as I've said in the past, I think it wise to remember your 'golden years' are RIGHT NOW. The most precious resource in your life is time--and no one knows how much time they get. Finances are only one (small) aspect of this picture--and do you really want to pi$$ away your best years over a bribe so cheap ? If you're thinking things will get better, they won't. If you're thinking you will get a base, you won't. Simple as that and the cards are all on the table. If you're really happy with the way the cards look and the way your life is going--great. If not move on. But don't expect pie-in-the sky false promises to materialize.

The one major question I'd ask is there ANYONE -- anyone at all -- who has decided to move on and has regretted the decision ? I know of many who have moved on--universally their life is much happier now. NOT ONE has regretted the decision in any way.
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Old 14th Nov 2018, 22:51
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: heads down trying to figure out Chinese RVSM
Posts: 194
Sage advice, Slasher1.

Originally Posted by Slasher1 View Post
........

The one major question I'd ask is there ANYONE -- anyone at all -- who has decided to move on and has regretted the decision ? I know of many who have moved on--universally their life is much happier now. NOT ONE has regretted the decision in any way.
Agreed. To date, those that I know who sold their flat in HKG, paid off a house or flat in their homeland, and repatriated, ALL have told me they have no regrets. It's become an issue of QOL primarily.
I know a few that left for the ME3 carriers - some have regrets as they were told one thing, only to discover that was not the case upon arrival.

Basically it's a personal decision. What makes one person happy doesn't necessarily make another person happy. What are you seeking? Multiple properties and fancy lifestyle? Paid off single place and savings in the bank? Living in the moment and enjoying Life to the fullest each second? It's all a personal choice.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 06:12
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
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Originally Posted by bringbackthe80s View Post


LCCs in Europe have no seniority lists and all of them are hiring DEC.

not seeing many CX captains applying though
Ryanair Easyjet,Whizz Norwegian ALL have seniority list based on Base area DOJ
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 07:07
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
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I know one chap that left and now regrets it........there’s bound to be a few......part of life.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 08:52
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 22
If I took a snap shot of my schedule and pay when I left CX and right after joining my new airline it would probably look like I was crazy. But like many things worth doing it takes a step or two backwards to make a leap forward.

I now enjoy nearly the same pay, same days off but with a few major improvements.

-I have complete control of my schedule
-My work rules, benefits, pay, vacation, the list goes on, are protected by a negotiated CBA and are NOT subject to companies discretion.

I know now these things will not be pulled out from under me because of a downright blunder from incompetent management.

There was no way I was going to gamble the well being of my family with CX. I had seen enough in my 12 years.

No thanks.

My only regret is that I now,have to shave when I go to work. Really enjoyed having a beard.

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Old 15th Nov 2018, 09:00
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
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Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
Ryanair Easyjet,Whizz Norwegian ALL have seniority list based on Base area DOJ
They donít, if you join as DEC youíd have the exact same fleet/trps/holidays/pay as the guy next to you whoís been there 10 years. The only difference is depending on the base a farther car park and less loyalty bonus (at least!). STILL I havenít seen a (non retired) CX captain join any of these companies in the last 20 years.

Remind me what would happen if a senior capt at a LCC joined CX tomorrow? Ahhhhh so thatís seniority is it.
Remember LCCs in Europe will pride themeselves and make it VERY clear they DO NOT have a seniority system.

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Old 16th Nov 2018, 23:45
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 150
Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
Four FOís resigned yesterday. Next question...
878 resigned from EK last 12 months and you all wanted to go to the roadshow.

To answer the question, ďbecause everything out there is garbage as the industry slowly but surely goes downhillĒ

Haven't seen a good contract job yet. Lots of grass is greener talk though......
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 00:43
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
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Originally Posted by morningcoffee View Post

878 resigned from EK last 12 months and you all wanted to go to the roadshow.

To answer the question, ďbecause everything out there is garbage as the industry slowly but surely goes downhillĒ

Haven't seen a good contract job yet. Lots of grass is greener talk though......
I donít really think itís about greener grass, just healthier and more affordable living in oneís home country. HK is a compromise for most westerners, especially without expat benefits, and CX has a toxic / soul crushing culture. This is why CX scrapes the bottom of the barrel, now hiring mostly non- and barely pilots.

The remaining experienced expats are the glue keeping the CX ship afloat, both in terms of training and every day line flying. Itís only a matter of time before a hull loss occurs because the current batch of new ďdriversĒ possess little to no experience or airmanship. Strong SOPs only go so far. Pilots get almost no help from IOC, and engineering standards just keep dropping. Outport staff are being cut in favor of barely trained contractors. The Company just keeps drilling holes in the cheese until one day... they will line up. Then, those same bean counters responsible for the rot will point their fingers at the pilots, alive or dead. They will be blamed regardless of whether they deserve it.

Itís a shame because pilots, love or hate them, set the tone for the whole airline. CX used to have a great pilot culture of respect and admiration. Now, itís just resentment and disdain. To me, there is a direct correlation between this relationship and the whole tone / service attitude of the airline.

The Company refuses to lead to fix this broken relationship. Instead, they point fingers in an attempt to demonize the pilots, as if that is going to accomplish anything positive. Make no mistake, this airline is run by sadists with maturity levels rivaling those of teenage boys. They absolutely must be seen to ďwinĒ (or at least make the pilots lose) in the eyes of their puppet masters, the Swires. Ironically, the Swires just donít care anymore. They stripped the airline of its cash via the fuel hedging scandal and loaded CX up with debt. All that is left to do is sale the airline to some unscrupulous buyer. Sadly, that might be the best thing for the employees and the future of Cathay Pacific Airways.
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 03:51
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
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CXorcist

Great note and spot on however, as we always tend to do, don't get distracted by what the Swires try to drive home. They are absolute experts at deflection and the pilot group happens to be a great shiny ball that they hope keeps everyone looking away from the reality of how mismanaged this once great company is. The pilots are to blame?

I think not.
  • How many subsidiary's have been created to suck profit from the once ultra profitable CX ? There's 8 listed on IntraCX and they don't mention HAECO, HAECO Americas, HAESL etc. etc.
  • Someone please Google Cathay Pacific loses lawsuit / is fined etc. Were talking dozens of lawsuits and hundreds of millions of US$, worldwide..How many have they simply settled out of court (Paris basing) ?
  • What was the total Fuel Hedging loss? I'm guessing but 4 to 5 BILLION US$
  • Just look at the debacle CX is now in regarding the Data Loss. What will be the cost? They have literally been caught being dishonest on many levels and those responsible, all very high ranking and highly paid (Swire) "leadership" types who it is "their Corporate, Legal and/or Fiduciary duty" to disclose these types of issues to the relevant government/corporate entities however, they specifically and purposefully chose not to.
This is definitely not an all inclusive list however from this, one should be able to judge the level of mismanagement and or corporate malfeasance that continues to occur costing BILLIONS of US$...

But look who's the big bad bogey man - the Pilots

IT's DEFLECTION
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 04:41
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
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Originally Posted by Flex88 View Post
Great note and spot on however, as we always tend to do, don't get distracted by what the Swires try to drive home. They are absolute experts at deflection and the pilot group happens to be a great shiny ball that they hope keeps everyone looking away from the reality of how mismanaged this once great company is. The pilots are to blame?

I think not.
  • How many subsidiary's have been created to suck profit from the once ultra profitable CX ? There's 8 listed on IntraCX and they don't mention HAECO, HAECO Americas, HAESL etc. etc.
  • Someone please Google Cathay Pacific loses lawsuit / is fined etc. Were talking dozens of lawsuits and hundreds of millions of US$, worldwide..How many have they simply settled out of court (Paris basing) ?
  • What was the total Fuel Hedging loss? I'm guessing but 4 to 5 BILLION US$
  • Just look at the debacle CX is now in regarding the Data Loss. What will be the cost? They have literally been caught being dishonest on many levels and those responsible, all very high ranking and highly paid (Swire) "leadership" types who it is "their Corporate, Legal and/or Fiduciary duty" to disclose these types of issues to the relevant government/corporate entities however, they specifically and purposefully chose not to.
This is definitely not an all inclusive list however from this, one should be able to judge the level of mismanagement and or corporate malfeasance that continues to occur costing BILLIONS of US$...

But look who's the big bad bogey man - the Pilots

IT's DEFLECTION
Great post Flex! It does beg the question... When do they just come out and say Mea Culpa?!?! We know we have been doing a horrible job, and this is what we are going to do to fix it. My guess... Itíll NEVER happen.
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Old 17th Nov 2018, 04:53
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: somewhere
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Pilots are very good at keeping their heads in the sand when viewing the conduct of Management and the future of the airline for which they work. Pilots in failing airlines stay loyal when it has become obvious to most outside observers that the end is inevitable. Lakers, British Caledonian, DanAir and a host of others worldwide were all seen to be failing and yet pilots stayed to the very end in the forlorn hope of improvement. The same is now happening at Cathay. The owners are making cuts and sucking value out of the airline , all of which are unsustainable in the long term. Obviously they are taking as much out as they can prior to sale. Whoever does eventually buy the airline will face a huge task and investment to replace the quality which has been drained away , or they will simply break up the airline. The smart pilots , the ones with their heads not in the sand , are leaving if they can.
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