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People Thinking Of Going CX

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

People Thinking Of Going CX

Old 14th Oct 2018, 03:30
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 149
Originally Posted by Busbuoy View Post
I think it's very nice of MC to make sure everyone understands management's position:
"You come to CX, be warned we have rigged the system so that the first 5+ years of your career will be of little or no future value to you anywhere else. By the time you have accumulated any experience of worth, 10+ years will have gone by. Then see how you feel about restarting that 10+ years behind your contemporaries who went to another carrier.
DO NOT TRY AND TELL US WE DID NOT WARN YOU!"
I suppose I should expect the usual garbage replies. Where do you go instead? Ezy? Ryan? 1.5 million hkg in debt for a cadetship that leads to a temp contract that often doesnít lead to full time employment.
Instead of sh*tting on the new joiners for coming to CX have a listen to them telling you the options out there in 2018, with an apparent pilot shortage.
The #1 bitch I get from S/Os is the fatcat B scalers telling them CX is rubbish while utterly clueless about whatís out there in 2018 for guys starting out.
Weíre 10 replies in already, total number of better options thus far - ZERO

*crickets*

morningcoffee is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 03:35
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Nimbus
Posts: 79
Porterboy, the question to ask yourself is: where would you go next? Because you ain't gonna spend your career in CX, I can guarantee that.
Think POS18 is bad? Wait for the next one.
My advice is, try to go to your career airline earlier than later. If you need to come to CX for the rating, do it. But is a 747 rating useful nowadays?

As for lessonlearnt, yes, the training ban is slowing down our careers progression. But the decision to go with 2 SOs on long haul flights is having a much bigger impact on an SO career progression.

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Zapp_Brannigan is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 03:57
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 46
Originally Posted by Zapp_Brannigan View Post
Porterboy, the question to ask yourself is: where would you go next?
Great question... I have no idea. The options out there aren't great. I can hardly pay my student loans where I'm at. Should've chosen another career or gone to the military in hindsight... That Michael Moore movie about being a pilot in the states applies just as much, if not more to Canada than the US right now.
Originally Posted by Zapp_Brannigan View Post
My advice is, try to go to your career airline earlier than later. If you need to come to CX for the rating, do it. But is a 747 rating useful nowadays?
Out of pure curiosity, is the 747 historically the only aircraft to be offered for DFO or do they ever offer other fleet types? If not, are you ever able to transfer or are you frozen on type for good?
Porterboy is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 05:24
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 7
Originally Posted by Porterboy View Post
Great question... I have no idea. The options out there aren't great. I can hardly pay my student loans where I'm at. Should've chosen another career or gone to the military in hindsight... That Michael Moore movie about being a pilot in the states applies just as much, if not more to Canada than the US right now.

Out of pure curiosity, is the 747 historically the only aircraft to be offered for DFO or do they ever offer other fleet types? If not, are you ever able to transfer or are you frozen on type for good?
20 year captains can't get off the 747 so you never would.
unitedabx is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 07:52
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 31
Originally Posted by morningcoffee View Post

I suppose I should expect the usual garbage replies. Where do you go instead? Ezy? Ryan? 1.5 million hkg in debt for a cadetship that leads to a temp contract that often doesnít lead to full time employment.
Instead of sh*tting on the new joiners for coming to CX have a listen to them telling you the options out there in 2018, with an apparent pilot shortage.
The #1 bitch I get from S/Os is the fatcat B scalers telling them CX is rubbish while utterly clueless about whatís out there in 2018 for guys starting out.
Weíre 10 replies in already, total number of better options thus far - ZERO

*crickets*

There are other options out there. For starts HK Express is an option and most SOs would meet the requirements and HK Express would love to have them. Contracts are very transparent and you will already earn more than an SO salary plus you get an upgrade to FO and you ACTUALLY FLY THE AIRCRAFT.

You tell me how that is not a better option???!!!

So please stop spreading your CX BS here.
AdB29 is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 08:33
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Weltschmerz-By-The-Sea, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 835
Porterboy, your assumptions about how foreigners are treated in Australia need recalibration. That said, taking a DHC-8 job may be at best a five year deal (after which you can apply for permanent residency then citizenship). You may be then able to transition internally to QF, but there are no guarantees.

Can't you meet a nice American to marry, even as a stop-gap measure?
Australopithecus is online now  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 09:19
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Hong kong
Posts: 101
Porter boy,
have you considered Dragon air above Cathay , also have a look at Korean , and some of the airlines in Japan their pay isn’t fantastic but it’s a great place to live , clean air , good food , sadly neither of which HK have . A number of airlines in China have commuting rosters which may work for you . Look on some of the aviation recruiting sites , failing that take a position at CX, but be warned the salary sounds great looking at it in Canadian terms . Once you get here and start paying for rent, electricity for air cons which you can’t live without , and food that doesn’t come from China it becomes very expensive .
my electricity bill in summer runs about CAD$ 600 a month. Go to a bar and have a beer you are looking at CAD $ 10 plus . A small cauliflower $10 butter $12 . The list goes on it’s not a cheap place to live as an expat . If you like local food you can live a bit cheaper . All I’m saying is better to be forewarned than find out after the fact and COS 18 with 6 years + as an SO living in 400sq ft isn’t a great morale booster . This job used to be amazing , it certainly was when I joined decades ago sadly today it’s a very different story and sometimes the grass is not always greener
Tea time is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 09:26
  #28 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: hong kong
Posts: 0
Morningcoffee

Thanks for the read and reply. I see lots of people here think you're management. I am new here so I will hold my judgement, BUT

Thanks for bringing that up to my attention. Yes I have a P2X rating but believe it or not, I have some experience before joining CX. So yes companies in my home country will look at me and they are. I have decided to take CX for everything I possibly can. List below....

1. My TT bonuses (every year we get a experience bonus which is just shy of 900 000hkd over 6 years - so I have 4.5 years left) and please note to all new joiners this is a thing of the past, so already you are loosing out coming here if you have experience.

2. I have and will take my maximum sick leave - it makes life so easy to extend my leave or days off - and I'm entitled to them. I hear the SO sick rate is climbing....Do you blame us? NEW JOINERS you will have to earn your sick leave and this is gong to suck when you trying to get fly more hours to pay your tax/rent etc and you sick.....

3. After getting a nice big shiny jet rating I am GONE!!!! Now its taken a little longer than I expected. But I feel sorry for people joining now as a SO......;4-5 years + for a upgrade. It sucks trust me.

If you are management you should clearly see there is a issue in this airline thats costing them massively.

Maybe wake up and smell the morning coffee.
lessonlearnt is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 09:33
  #29 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: hong kong
Posts: 0
Porterboy

I am honestly not telling you not to come here. Im telling you things from my perspective. You can take advice or not. I did not when I joined this airline and it has backfired.

As I said people are happy here, you find less and less but there are some around town. The majority are not and are looking for a CXit. But I believe you should do what you want. I can comfortably say I would not recommend anyone to join this airline because that recommendation would be a terrible one for someone looking to build his/her career and enjoy the flying.

Come as a DEFO. You will have to wait for currently 600ish SO's to upgrade to CAPT before you get a sniff. And everyone of them will be your senior when you try staff travel, of bid for bases one day (trust me there will be no more bases) or even just requesting a flight. When the SO upgrades eventually he is your senior and he has the request bid higher than yours. But you get paid more - well not actually if you look at the COS18 you will be on.

But its your choice and everyones choice out there to do what you want to do. But be warned......
lessonlearnt is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 12:34
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 19
Originally Posted by Porterboy View Post
Great question... I have no idea. The options out there aren't great. I can hardly pay my student loans where I'm at. Should've chosen another career or gone to the military in hindsight... That Michael Moore movie about being a pilot in the states applies just as much, if not more to Canada than the US right now.

Out of pure curiosity, is the 747 historically the only aircraft to be offered for DFO or do they ever offer other fleet types? If not, are you ever able to transfer or are you frozen on type for good?
-

For Porterboy, I completely understand where you are coming from. I'm not sure if you have lots of experience or not. If not, then CX is an option just keep in mind that it is not a career airline especially on the COS18 package. While it does demean the rest, if it is your only option, we really are in no place to judge. Build the hours and get out. It's becoming the RyanAir of Asia. However, if you do have experience, I urge you to look around. There are many contracts in Asia at the moment that are better than COS18, such as Air Japan, even HKA commuting contract, some chinese carriers, corporate a new venture opening from Japan Airlines, etc... Even the middle east, while not much better, will give you the pay and experience to get directly into Air Canada. There are many options. I just don't see people with some experience being so desperate that career COS18 is their only choice.

MoringCoffee, I'm not here to berate you or crap all over SO's coming to join. The options you requested are as stated above. Again, for a hong kong local with no experience, I agree the cadet program is probably one of the best choices, besides funding it yourself. (Keep in mind Half of the FTA training costs, is almost the cost for a commercial multi in the USA/Canada. They would be better off funding outside of cathay and joining on an AE course with no training costs being deducted and better MPF) However, I would hope that these cadets keep in mind after training, they owe nothing to cathay, they can be expats anywhere else, and they will have options when they get their P1.

I think the point of my post is to echo what the others are saying. This is not a career airline! While I can't completely judge those without any experience joining, those who do have it and saying their are no choices in their countries, need to keep looking around. Sadly, and at the risk of turning away people with good experience, this job is not for you.
flyera359 is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 13:20
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 513
Since 2009 we have been telling the COS08/HKPA guys that the deal was shit.

What makes us think that COS18 will deter people from joining when they continue to convert the package into CAD$ and Rand.
AQIS Boigu is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 14:12
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Canada
Posts: 22
As a pilot career, the principle problems with being an SO at CX is summed up as follows: P2X hours counting for minimal experience, coupled with extended and uncertain career progression, in one of the most expensive places in the world during a pilot shortage. It fails a cost-benefit analysis in this current economic climate, and is uncompetitive to other flying positions offered by other air operators. Even CX’s next door competitors, like HKE or HKA, offers right seat experience for similar experience levels at higher pay and faster career progression. Just the right seat experience alone is worth the weight in gold.

To be frank, making the career competitive again is quite easy for CX if they can only see and address these problems. But without recognising there is a problem, well... what more can anyone say?
MrAndy is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 14:56
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 219
To recap:

You have NO ONE saying it's great--not even that it's good or even OK or mediocre. You have NO ONE saying things are trending up or likely to get better (or even break even); most say things are going rapidly in the other direction. I don't think I've seen really ANYONE say how happy they are. The best (potentially management) trolls can say is "well, it may not be as bad as blah blah blah." Think about that--the best anyone can say is 'well, it may not be as bad as.......' This of a once crown jewel airline where people were fighting to get in the door.

Have you heard ANYONE say anything positive about career aspects here ? There are certainly SOME good things--but how many of these had anything to do with the job or job satisfaction (or even potential career progression) ?

Seniority is everything in any airline career. So ANY time you spend parked somewhere is lost money and lost lifestyle if you go anywhere else. In POS 18, you're looking at a contract that IMHO is substantially worse than most US major low cost carriers (and that's living in Hong Kong with no labor laws to speak of and phenomenal costs).

Pretty much EVERYONE who has left (and cares to drop by and say something) has said how happy they are and how good their life is going (and back on track)--and what a good decision they made TO leave. Even if they've gone to a non-flying job. They didn't have to do this; I think a great deal of it is out of legitimate concern for others. It's a great catharsis to make a mistake (or not necessarily a mistake at the time but circumstances changed and turned out badly toward the end) and relay your experience to others--as pilots we do this extensively by passing on info to our fellow pilots. Have you read anything from anyone who's left which says they might have made a mistake by leaving ? For those staying have you heard anything other than "well, I'm older and kinda stuck ?" If you were driving a car (at least with some experience behind you and really wanting to get somewhere vice playing bulletproof redneck) would you try to blast through a field of quicksand, or would you look for a somewhat longer route around where you wouldn't get stuck and lose your car (and potentially you) ?

A person can talk himself or herself into some pretty crazy things. I might suggest speaking with others whose opinion you value. Often I've gotten a good 'sanity check' by bouncing ideas off others -- it's OK to abandon a bad idea.

If you do decide to take the plunge anyway, and wind up wondering where you went wrong, well it was right here. You were more than warned about what you were getting into.

Life's short and no one knows how many todays one gets. I wouldn't waste them.
Slasher1 is online now  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 16:09
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 46
Originally Posted by Tea time View Post
Porter boy,
have you considered Dragon air above Cathay [...]
Iíve considered Dragon, but on top of being shy of the required experience, it looks like itís the exact same contract being offered for Cathay DFOís; pilots of which get to fly around the world, not just south east Asia. Is there a hidden benefit that Iím not seeing about Dragon? Quick command maybe?

Iíve seen these other contracts ie: Korean, ANA, Xiamen, etc. I donít think Iíd do very well as a commuter to be honest. Iíd much prefer to live at the base of where Iím flying and living in those places (Seoul, Tokyo, etc) sounds cool, but I donít think it would be as livable for an English speaking person compared with Hong Kong.

I think Iíve been sufficiently turned off from applying to CX. This is sad. I think I might try my luck at Qlink. If I could play my cards right and get PR/citizenship and later get on with Qantas, I think that would be a career worth having. I donít understand how two countries with similar populations and similar living costs, etc can have such different pilot pay. Just to give an example, at Qlink for a DFO on the Q400, they pay ~80k. The exact same position here at Jazz pays 38.96/hr (37k @80hrs/mo). Tax is very similar. I canít believe it.
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Old 14th Oct 2018, 17:44
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: crewbag
Age: 47
Posts: 288
https://www.pprune.org/south-asia-far-east-wannabes/469949-cx-so-all-you-need-know.html

As written by a bunch of SO's seven years ago. Not much has changed it seems.
quadspeed is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 19:28
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: On a few nerves apparently
Posts: 61
Originally Posted by pax britanica View Post
As long as its only the cubicle that comes crashing down,,, when I read the title of this thread I thought it was about Pax flying on CX-I have a trip to HK planned for feb 19 and reading this and looking back on the other threads makes me think I should avoid CX and stick with boring BA-is it really that bad?
Regarding the comment someone else made about the PE (passenger experience) let us all know how your experience is when one of us goes sick or fatigued, or just doesn't care enough to answer his/her phone when a pilot is needed last minute and your flight is delayed by hours, a day or just canceled outright. Tell us all how it goes stranded unexpectedly and perhaps missing the biz meeting or wedding you were planning on attending. Not that the crap degrades pax inflight service is anything to be impressed about anymore but let's see if you'll find comfort in it after I don't give a shit to show up for work on that day or refuse to help and save the delay or cancelation.

Make no mistake, for every little bit less I get, a little bit less you get. The cabin service you get is only one part of what you get for what you pay. If I'm not happy, you the passenger won't be happy. Even if I'm not going out of my way to make it happen. I have to give less if I'm given less and that I very very intentionally I make sure of. If I don't give less, then I'm just a chump. The end result flows downhill into your lap dear passenger. Enjoy your "experience". No hard feelings.
VforVENDETTA is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 20:38
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Enzud
Posts: 10
Porterboy, if you can get a gig at QLink, absolutely take it! The road to permanent residency may seem arduous but is achievable, and your lifestyle and future career prospects would thank you for it.

I know of a few kiwis and aussies returning to their respective motherships with P2X jet time also for those asking what else is out there....
captsf is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 21:12
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 46
Nail in the coffin

Saw this posted in the KA thread in the wannabees forum. This is awful. wow. Especially considering how long a new comer will be stuck on the SO/FO wages. I thought it was a general rule to spend no more than 30% of your salary on rent/mortgage, but with this pay that rule gets you nothing remotely nice. Try 50% or more to live decently... Only way this would be worth it is DEC Had to see it to really believe it.
Attached Files
Porterboy is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 21:16
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Canada
Posts: 46
Originally Posted by captsf View Post
Porterboy, if you can get a gig at QLink, absolutely take it! The road to permanent residency may seem arduous but is achievable, and your lifestyle and future career prospects would thank you for it.

I know of a few kiwis and aussies returning to their respective motherships with P2X jet time also for those asking what else is out there....
No kidding! I'll have to polish up that resume.
Porterboy is offline  
Old 14th Oct 2018, 23:04
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 619
DEFO roster bids

Something to consider for anyone thinking of joining as a Direct Entry First Officer. You will be the most junior FO for roster bids until all 600+ Second Officers that joined ahead of you have been upgraded to First Officer. Then you will finally move off the bottom of the bidding barrel.

So for the first 5-7 years you will have zero chance of bidding any good trips - or getting commuter friendly rosters due to your lack of seniority. You will get the dregs - the India patterns etc. Lots of 2 pilot night flying.

Caveat Emptor
Numero Crunchero is offline  

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