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Emirates coming to town..THEY WANT YOU!!

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Emirates coming to town..THEY WANT YOU!!

Old 7th Jun 2018, 04:41
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: United Arab Emirates
Posts: 57
Originally Posted by krismiler View Post
QATAR Airways used to be one of the worst jobs in the Middle East until they saw the light and improved things for the pilots, now itís still not perfect but a huge improvement over what it was 10 years ago.

Emirates used to be one of the best jobs until they let it slide.
I'm sorry - i'm not the happiest EK pilot out there but the friends I have at Qatar are absolutely miserable. It is 100 times worse, and 100 times more covered up. At least we can actually express our discontent publicly. The worst part is my friends are struggling to get out - the hoops they have to jump through are ridiculous and they're seriously close to breaking point. I'd rather be tied to EK forever (which I'm not) than spend a second at Qatar from what I've heard.

As much as EK is a bit of a mess at times, I know there are some good people trying to change things. And more colleagues can only help so I encourage people to give it a go if they're unhappy elsewhere.
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 08:37
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 838
Thank you for what appears to be a very honest and balanced viewpoint. Hopefully yoir management will wake up before its too late. Not much sign of that at CX sadly. The death spiral continues here.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 7th Jun 2018, 08:41
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Sand Pit
Posts: 2
I wish no offence but very few of you here "get it". Capt Dart seems to.

They force us into being mercenaries so be a mercenary. This may mean reshaping the plans you had conceived years back. What does CX offer you today and into the future? NOTHING but perpetual attacks on your conditions of service until they bring you down to the sewer of C-Scale. Your housing is already being threatened and you've only a stay of execution already. The ME3 is not a dream by any stretch but if you don't do your due diligence a la the average new joiner to CX then all the more fool you. The ME offers a Command within ⅓ to ľ of the time of CX, maybe less.

(Friends who have come and gone from HKA/E tell me it's a nepotistic nightmare & standards disgrace: what would you expect when they take CX Cat D pilots, fast track them to Command and then become Training Managers!? Their 787 fleet is being headed by a Malaysian guy who is doing nothing but recruiting buddies who share the same passport so nothing changes at HKA/E. It just stays ignorantly the same it seems, so don't use them as a yard stick.)

From a guy who's been around the traps, get out of CX if you have experience and a CV that has a backbone: less & less common nowadays I'll admit. If you have a CX Command on B-Scale then stay until the writing is on the wall by way of housing and other well deserved benefits of your employment. For others, use the ME to get a (wide body) Command and put up with the local ways, deceitful management, the heat and rest of the BS. Enjoy the brunches! 3-5 years is a long time in this job so anything could change. With a tax free (depending on own nationality laws of course) USD $25k per month being more the benchmark than the exception for widebody Command contracts, with European, Nth American & Aussie bases, commuting contracts the norm, etc then it's not a bad situation to be in after perhaps 5 years. Of course it's not for everyone....

The ME3 exists on pure arrogance and false economies. They will not go under due these facts. They may morph slightly but their hatred of each other, arrogance and pride will not see them fail. They'll always be artificially propped up which serves your short term goals, unlike anything in HK right now. Few at EK, EY or QR truly are "happy" but who in this career are anymore? It's better the devil you can accept to get what you want out of the situation. They still offer a housing allowance that can pay off a mortgage and education allowance that will cover most of a kid's education.

Use them as they use us. Get what you can while never undermining your colleagues or industry.
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Old 7th Jun 2018, 22:00
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Best Place!
Posts: 202
Originally Posted by GillEx737 View Post
As much as EK is a bit of a mess at times, I know there are some good people trying to change things. And more colleagues can only help so I encourage people to give it a go if they're unhappy elsewhere.

GillEx737 is another Costa Coffee dweller paid to post positively on the forums and make you believe life in EK is good and management are trying to make it better. How surprising that he/she suddenly appears in the Fragrant Harbor when EK are trying to attract CX pilots.....(No posts prior to EK, and only positive posts in the whole 8 months you've been a PPRuNe member is a dead give away Gil. Hint: people who didn't frequent PPRuNe before, don't suddenly start when they join EK, and only post positively about EK.)

Be under no illusion, EK is on a permanent slide, and nothing substantial will be done to improve things. If you think life in CX is tough, move to EK and discover what 'tough' really is. There are enough factual posts in the Middle East forum to make you realise it isn't the place to go after Cathay.

Last edited by mmmbop; 7th Jun 2018 at 23:24.
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Old 8th Jun 2018, 00:48
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: taiwan
Age: 53
Posts: 23
Why dont someone post how much a CX capt earning in CX.... then everyone will.know that nobody in CX are going... not even thinking.
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Old 8th Jun 2018, 03:22
  #46 (permalink)  
short flights long nights
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 3,078
Originally Posted by mmmbop View Post
GillEx737 is another Costa Coffee dweller paid to post positively on the forums and make you believe life in EK is good and management are trying to make it better. How surprising that he/she suddenly appears in the Fragrant Harbor when EK are trying to attract CX pilots.....(No posts prior to EK, and only positive posts in the whole 8 months you've been a PPRuNe member is a dead give away Gil. Hint: people who didn't frequent PPRuNe before, don't suddenly start when they join EK, and only post positively about EK.)

Be under no illusion, EK is on a permanent slide, and nothing substantial will be done to improve things. If you think life in CX is tough, move to EK and discover what 'tough' really is. There are enough factual posts in the Middle East forum to make you realise it isn't the place to go after Cathay.
What he said.........
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 05:24
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: United Arab Emirates
Posts: 57
Originally Posted by mmmbop View Post
GillEx737 is another Costa Coffee dweller paid to post positively on the forums and make you believe life in EK is good and management are trying to make it better. How surprising that he/she suddenly appears in the Fragrant Harbor when EK are trying to attract CX pilots.....(No posts prior to EK, and only positive posts in the whole 8 months you've been a PPRuNe member is a dead give away Gil. Hint: people who didn't frequent PPRuNe before, don't suddenly start when they join EK, and only post positively about EK.)

Be under no illusion, EK is on a permanent slide, and nothing substantial will be done to improve things. If you think life in CX is tough, move to EK and discover what 'tough' really is. There are enough factual posts in the Middle East forum to make you realise it isn't the place to go after Cathay.
Oh is that right? Honestly you lot are absolutely pathetic. THIS is one of the things I hate about EK - miserable old buggers willing to tear down their own colleagues if they don't like what's being said. You are half the reason this bullying culture flourishes, by targeting your own if they don't feel as bitter and twisted as you. You have absolutely no idea who I am - and trust me I'm not a 'Costa Coffee Dweller' - I just know that the grass isn't always greener and although I'm working like a dog it's still worth it for me and my family.

And SOPS - you don't work for EK anymore. Get a life or at least enjoy your own and let go of the bitterness. It's embarrassing.
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 06:56
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: underground
Posts: 97
Airline managements are the same worldwide. Cathay aspires to be more like EK than western legacy carriers. Yes they will work you a little harder, but be under no illusions CX has plans over the next few years to increase our overtime threshold, yearly hours reduce our pension etc. Rumour is theyíve already tried with the HKCAD.

What youíll have to weigh up is the basic salary hk$65,000 but factor in what you get for your extra $25-30,000 at CX.... ...can you rent a 2800sq ft villa for that? Youíll need a Capt salary to do so. Dubai is a modern very livable city, with big parks, nice beaches, great healthcare and international schools and lots of expat activities. Itís also in an enviable position close to Europe and Asia. Lifestyle is a choice but nice to be able to drive up to your family home in a nice 4 x 4, and have a semi-Ďnormalí Life again. Itís apples and pears but with quicker command times and no pollution. The new adage, if your young and single go to Cathay get your rating, and if you ever plan to have kids and a family home go to EK.

Good luck for all those who take the plunge.
baggagecart is offline  
Old 10th Jun 2018, 11:58
  #49 (permalink)  
short flights long nights
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 3,078
Originally Posted by GillEx737 View Post
Oh is that right? Honestly you lot are absolutely pathetic. THIS is one of the things I hate about EK - miserable old buggers willing to tear down their own colleagues if they don't like what's being said. You are half the reason this bullying culture flourishes, by targeting your own if they don't feel as bitter and twisted as you. You have absolutely no idea who I am - and trust me I'm not a 'Costa Coffee Dweller' - I just know that the grass isn't always greener and although I'm working like a dog it's still worth it for me and my family.

And SOPS - you don't work for EK anymore. Get a life or at least enjoy your own and let go of the bitterness. It's embarrassing.
Harsh Gill harsh. You allowed your opinion and those of us us that worked a long time at EK are not allowed ours? I have a great life thanks....if you find my posts embarrassing to read..then dont do it.
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Old 10th Jun 2018, 17:21
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: All Over
Posts: 471
Spent a lifetime in the Middle East over a few years. So while it may not be for me personally it may well be a good fit for others.

The key is to realize there are often better opportunities out there for most of us and if you are not happy take the plunge to move on. All you get in life is time and you never know how much time you get.

And sometimes the grass is really greener.

Shep69 is offline  
Old 10th Jun 2018, 19:24
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Doctor's waiting room
Posts: 647
As an EK aviator, this is my advice for anyone who might be tempted coming from HKG.

Only consider moving if being based in Dubai suits your own personal circumstances better than HK. I am not talking about the pros versus the cons with both places but rather from a perspective of Dubai being closer to where you may have interests and even then, the circumstances have to be very compelling since 'me' time can be limited and especially on the 777 fleet.

Points to bear in mind though:

- For a number in HKG, it will be a pay cut coming to EK. Budget on around 30,000 AED (65,000 HKD) a month or 44,000 AED (94,000 HKD) if you take the housing allowance and that is it as an F/O! Be expected to be quoted various sweeteners such as productivity pay and call out pay but the company will do its utmost to roster you to literally minutes within the productivity threshold and you only get call out pay if you answer your phone on a day off and given how precious days off are here you would be mad to - need I say more?

- The air is very polluted here during the summer due to dust and the overall air quality is no different to what you will have in HKG and could at times be worse. It is more pleasant during the winter months however. The World Bank published a paper a few years back and ranked the UAE has having some of the worst air quality in the world.

- Dubai is no longer tax free with VAT having been brought in this year and now that the hard part is done of implementing a VAT system, it is far easier for the rate to be manipulated as appropriate. Some costs here (such as running a car) are very cheap compared to HKG but others are more expensive.

- Time to command has and will always be fluid and the timescale the HR boffins will tell you is what is happening now as no one can say with any certainty, as to what time to command will be in the years ahead. Take what is said with a pinch of salt and do not let it be a main deciding factor in coming.

- If you take company accommodation then you are 'locked in' unless you are forced to move at any time from company accommodation or if you wish to move out of company accommodation and buy. The location of company accommodation that is assigned has in general become 'less desirable' during recent years compared to the past. Rents are and have been decreasing, with there being an abundance of empty houses and apartments within Dubai, so it is certainly a renters market at the moment with ample room for negotiation.

- Read the small print and carefully do your home work with schooling and medical costs for your family, since what the company may give you, may not cover the entire cost. I mention this as it is obviously important if you are coming from an environment where you could be facing a drop in salary!

- There will not be any commuting roster and the company has no desire to embrace any concept of part time working and nor do we have the numbers to allow such a practice any time soon. Compared to 777 contract jobs, the freighter option that is advertised is a poor option for a new joiner. You could join Korean and get roughly the same remuneration plus tickets home and increase the total number of days off in your block by over a third per year. It is of course different for someone already in EK and especially someone who has been here a while.

Morale on the line is not great at present and the feeling of discontent and frustration with management is palpable and ever growing. It could be the best wide body job in the world and some little changes would go a long long way but sadly the individuals who are in positions of control, are by in large ineffective and lack the competency required. For some at CX, it could be a case of jumping from the frying pan into the fire.

I don't wish to sound negative but I am purely trying to add a balanced perspective to all the positive points that the company will bombard you with, should you consider applying. If you have not visited Dubai yet and are considering joining then come for a look first and formulate your own perspective. The assessment process is tiring and gives you little time to have a look around.
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Old 12th Jun 2018, 02:28
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: HK
Posts: 52
Dont kid yourself thats a terrible package for being forced to live in the Middle East with minimum days off, but hey quick upgrade time so can get some hours in the left hand seat before getting a job back home.
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Old 12th Jun 2018, 04:42
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,796
Originally Posted by captain8 View Post
At the end of the day, However, its an option for Cathay Dragon Guys to get sone long haul experience on a decent type, and live nearer to Europe. But then what?
I don't pretend to speak for all KA pilots, but WTF is the attraction of flying long-haul, across east-west time zones? On a decent type? I mean an airliner is an airliner ? I prefer exhaustion to exhaustion and jet lag .

See this from the CX guys. On one hand they claim I get paid more, yet their operations management staff think there's a hidden desire for KA guys to want to fly CX type flying or God forbid be integrated?

Both EK and CX are bottom of the pile jobs at the moment. Perhaps you guys could just swap village idiots?
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Old 12th Jun 2018, 05:02
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 510
Gnadenburg

It’s not a “claim”...you are paid more. The 13th month bonus is part of your contract, it’s not in ours. Sadly, as we CX pilots discovered last year, what that means is that the Dragon Air pilots and flight attendants, in addition to our flight attendants at CX, never have to worry about receiving it. That might seem inconsequential to you, but I assure you it’s not for us.

Can an you give me an explanation as to why you might perceive that as fair?
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Old 12th Jun 2018, 05:32
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: hongkers
Posts: 77
Hi Raven.
It's true. We do have the 13th month guaranteed in our COS. However I don't know we get paid more. Apparently ( and I'm happy to be corrected if wrong) CX pilots had the 13th month incorporated into their monthly wage back in the early 90s. This should mean ( again I'm not certain of this) that if you compare like for like then a CX pilots basic salary is higher. It also means that any OT etc is calculated at a higher base rate. You'll probably find it's a swings and roundabouts scenario. It's been suggested a few times that we roll the 13th month into our monthly wage but the idea has never gained much traction.

Gnad hit the nail on the head too regarding long haul. Personally I still enjoy flying. The take off and landing bits. I do 30 to 40 sectors a month. The idea of flying 10+ hours in the cruise and not even get a landing would quickly drain the fun out of it. No wonder everyone at CX is angry. Sure you go to nicer destinations than us, but on the other hand I sleep in my own bed most nights. I can't see too many KA guys jumping ship to EK for a pay cut and some long haul fatigue. I couldn't imagine too many would bid even for CX if it ever came to that. I wouldn't.
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Old 12th Jun 2018, 05:56
  #56 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: HK
Posts: 52
Giggerty, regarding the 13th month being incorporated into the basic salary that was for the base pilots and you would find KA has a higher basic salary than CX
Firefly47 is offline  
Old 12th Jun 2018, 07:01
  #57 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,796
Originally Posted by raven11 View Post
Gnadenburg

It’s not a “claim”...you are paid more. The 13th month bonus is part of your contract, it’s not in ours. Sadly, as we CX pilots discovered last year, what that means is that the Dragon Air pilots and flight attendants, in addition to our flight attendants at CX, never have to worry about receiving it. That might seem inconsequential to you, but I assure you it’s not for us.

Can an you give me an explanation as to why you might perceive that as fair?


Raven

I don't like the way you are treated. Actually, I don't like the way we are treated or are going to be treated. It's not fair ! It's a destructive way to conduct business and drives immeasurable inefficiencies. But it may be the way forward we all have to get used to if they are shrinking CX?

Now I'd really like to see CX pilots' tax certificates. Say 10-15 year Captains so apples and oranges can finally be compared. I've asked many times on PPRuNe and debate goes quiet. Soon after the regular bluster fires up again from CX pilots about KA pilots getting paid much more. The non-payment of your discretionary CNY bonus perhaps, will make a significant difference. But again, a look at annual taxation returns, may be brutally honest. Why don't you PM me yours?

When we were in our CC campaign at KA I can not recall whining about CX pilots getting paid more- and by the admission of RH you were! It is actually a professional slur on many of you. A legacy pilot foolishness and spite, that only ever achieves management objectives of lowering the COS of all. I think industrial-organizational psychology at CX plays this division well . Management are planting rumours about KA that will see CX pilots happy with small or zero gains in areas, as long as they think they are doing it better than KA pilots. Don't believe, read the trash here on PPRuNe.

I'm happy to admit there are a number of jobs I'm envious of. CX and EK are neither of them.

Last edited by Gnadenburg; 12th Jun 2018 at 08:06.
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Old 12th Jun 2018, 08:05
  #58 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: hongkers
Posts: 77
Further to my previous post. My intention wasn't to undermine your claim. I think it was an appalling decision to single out CX captains to be the only ones not to get a CNY bonus. You have every right to be royally pissed off. It was a dumb, vindictive decision on CX managements part which has succeeded only in uniting the Cx pilot body even more. Stick to your guns. You deserve better.

Cap8. You're right. China isn't fun some days. However we wouldn't do the type of roster you posted.( not often anyway) For a start a single G day is not allowed under our RPA ( we still have one) unless you have been given one of you 5 joker G day blocks. Also, China being the nightmare it is, the company has been forced to increase turn around times. That has started to limit the number of sectors you can do in a day. The "optimiser" seems to be a bit random. Some guys on 60 hours a month some on 100.
Horses for courses. You like your long haul mixed with a bit of fatigue. I'll stick with actually flying mixed with some China frustration and a dash of tiredness.
giggerty is offline  
Old 12th Jun 2018, 12:17
  #59 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: home
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by captain8 View Post
EK crew are on long haul, but still only manage 9/10 G days a month . Just saying .
EK crew are Long, Medium and Short Haul. A certain psychopathic manager targets 8 days off a month for Tech Crew because he considers them the same as office staff.

Try getting a sleeping pattern with that type of flying.
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Old 12th Jun 2018, 12:19
  #60 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: HK
Posts: 35
Originally Posted by captain8 View Post
I hear some ka pilots even do over 3 hours discretion
Complete anomaly, I think you'll find that KA captains willing to go into discretion are few and far between.
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