May 31st
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 5
From: London
Everyone should read one of the greatest books on human nature and the unforgiving environment of change: "Who Moved my Cheese". It basically explains the reality of human nature, and lays out a strategy of how to effectively deal with a changing and usually negative work environment. Once you can recognise the fact that this management is hell bent on stripping away any value from the job, you can start to make rational decisions regarding your career, your family and your future. You will undoubtedly conclude that nearly anywhere is better than CX. Never mind the fact that you can barely make ends meet, you also have the added insidious aspects of the pollution, your kids growing up in an unnatural environment, a bitter and unhappy wife (there goes 50%+ of your assets)....and obviously I could go on. CX has NO concern regarding your health, your welfare or your long term security. All they care about is using you....and then discarding you There are FAR better places to invest your time and skills. Make the move while you still have time.
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 725
Likes: 0
From: VHHH Ocean 2D
Simply, there are too many Australians training on the airbus, teaching how to grasp the non-essentials which does not help in command training!
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 202
Likes: 0
From: I go, therefore I am there!
Some guesses:
A slight payrise, ... maybe 2% for the next 2 or 3 years. Not for all of course!
A slight increase in the HKPA.
CX will hope that these sweeteners will offset:
88 hour threshold
Continuation of the imposed RPs
Continuation of the sickness intimidation program
Removal of Training Ban for next X years.
The requirement to call CC at some time before duty start.
Removal of contract compliance with an assurance to not use it again for X years.
A slight payrise, ... maybe 2% for the next 2 or 3 years. Not for all of course!
A slight increase in the HKPA.
CX will hope that these sweeteners will offset:
88 hour threshold
Continuation of the imposed RPs
Continuation of the sickness intimidation program
Removal of Training Ban for next X years.
The requirement to call CC at some time before duty start.
Removal of contract compliance with an assurance to not use it again for X years.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 56
Likes: 7
From: HK
? In Europe, US & India it is the low cost carriers that are not having trouble making money. Ryanair/Vueling/EasyJet/Indigo/SouthWest etc. Airlines like SQ/LH/KLM have reacted by forming their own LCC (Scoot/ Tiger/ Eurowings/ Transavia etc) but CX management have allowed HK Express & others to take this niche in Asia.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 5
From: London
Overtime threshold is sacrosanct. Any attempted change to that and I am not budging from ANY aspect of CC. End of. Doesn't matter WHAT they may offer in exchange. I saw how awful our world became when we 'gave' away 5/4/3. Never again. Never.
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: Australia
I really hope this overarching framework for industrial harmony we are drafting doesn't call for a immediate end to the training ban.
I'm all for appropriate industrial harmony and an "overarching framework for guidelines that outline the foundation for a plan for possible future good faith dialogue moving forward", but not until we have sorted out all the issues that have been outstanding and blatantly ignored for the last decade. What about 25 year housing, basings, temp basings, another pay deal and air fresheners in all hotel hallways. This is a once in a lifetime industrial opportunity to try and right the wrongs. If we don't seize it, then as always, the company will just enter freewheel negotiation mode with issues such as a new pay deal (how hard did we have to fight for the last imposed single digit rises) and all our (AoA) hard work will be slowly destroyed due attrition. We have already missed out due to many years of substandard pay scale adjustments, been told that bases are just too hard etc. Put our most effective weapon down now and the company will walk away from the table with a grimy smirk, having still won the battle by giving away the absolute minimum possible to keep the wheels turning.
We know there's no such thing as "good faith" with CX management. They set a deadline, it was a bluff. Let's get the other issues fixed now, force them into another Manila Thrilla or whatever it takes, or we will be negotiating with a stone wall for the entire duration of this industrial harmony period.
I'm all for appropriate industrial harmony and an "overarching framework for guidelines that outline the foundation for a plan for possible future good faith dialogue moving forward", but not until we have sorted out all the issues that have been outstanding and blatantly ignored for the last decade. What about 25 year housing, basings, temp basings, another pay deal and air fresheners in all hotel hallways. This is a once in a lifetime industrial opportunity to try and right the wrongs. If we don't seize it, then as always, the company will just enter freewheel negotiation mode with issues such as a new pay deal (how hard did we have to fight for the last imposed single digit rises) and all our (AoA) hard work will be slowly destroyed due attrition. We have already missed out due to many years of substandard pay scale adjustments, been told that bases are just too hard etc. Put our most effective weapon down now and the company will walk away from the table with a grimy smirk, having still won the battle by giving away the absolute minimum possible to keep the wheels turning.
We know there's no such thing as "good faith" with CX management. They set a deadline, it was a bluff. Let's get the other issues fixed now, force them into another Manila Thrilla or whatever it takes, or we will be negotiating with a stone wall for the entire duration of this industrial harmony period.
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 298
Likes: 0
From: In front of the PC
So we give away the 84 hour threshold so a handful of guys can take a base? WTF?
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 230
Likes: 0
From: az
I've heard that Management have recognized that we have quite a few deficiencies in regards to our credited time.
Apparently the new credit factor for leave is 2.8 hours, to accurately reflect what the credit should be.
Rostering practices are relatively unchanged from previous arrangements, prior to the company unilaterally changing them.
HKPA goes up, but not to full housing. 10/14/18/24/32 for SO/JFO/FO/SFO/CN.
Pay rise effective Jan 1 2017 of 4.8%. If future pay rises are not agreed upon, then 3% per year will be implemented automatically.
Type changes allowed every 3.5 years, and jokers to be done away with.
Any vacancies in a seat/plane will be bid out, and eligible officers allowed to swap fleets anytime.
We will be able to bid for training events.... like every other civilized airline in the world. For example. you have a PC due in August, you bid for it in June, are awarded it in July, so that you can bid accordingly in July for your AUG roster.
JFK base will open... obviously still at 84 hours..... even though some really stupid people perpetuate the rumor that it might increase (why would you spread something so stupid). In fact, the more likely story is that the overtime threshold will decrease to 76 hours in this base - due to the lower pay than say the FRA base..... and DEFO/DEC will occur, if slots are not filled.
Profit share formula change.
The company is expanding, and acquiring. They want us happy, and by demanding us to come to the table, they will be pleased to just have harmony for a slightly higher cost.
All of this for the ending of a training ban... they could care less about CC... but undoubtedly want this lifted as well.
What do we say???? I will vote NO until future improvements are implemented, including:
Commuting clause
Real FOC's
Roster stability
the ability to drop trips properly
The company actually complying with FTL's and rostering practices
Everyone has room for their bag in the bag room
Everyone gets a locker!! Why does it take so long!!
Real Health insurance for me and my family, in HKG and my home country (covering everything - like a real company)
The elimination of doing online training events for free
The ability to opt out of flying with certain Captains
Ok... rant over.
I'm sure we have worked out all the kinks, and we will have an industry leading contract (for pilots).
Apparently the new credit factor for leave is 2.8 hours, to accurately reflect what the credit should be.
Rostering practices are relatively unchanged from previous arrangements, prior to the company unilaterally changing them.
HKPA goes up, but not to full housing. 10/14/18/24/32 for SO/JFO/FO/SFO/CN.
Pay rise effective Jan 1 2017 of 4.8%. If future pay rises are not agreed upon, then 3% per year will be implemented automatically.
Type changes allowed every 3.5 years, and jokers to be done away with.
Any vacancies in a seat/plane will be bid out, and eligible officers allowed to swap fleets anytime.
We will be able to bid for training events.... like every other civilized airline in the world. For example. you have a PC due in August, you bid for it in June, are awarded it in July, so that you can bid accordingly in July for your AUG roster.
JFK base will open... obviously still at 84 hours..... even though some really stupid people perpetuate the rumor that it might increase (why would you spread something so stupid). In fact, the more likely story is that the overtime threshold will decrease to 76 hours in this base - due to the lower pay than say the FRA base..... and DEFO/DEC will occur, if slots are not filled.
Profit share formula change.
The company is expanding, and acquiring. They want us happy, and by demanding us to come to the table, they will be pleased to just have harmony for a slightly higher cost.
All of this for the ending of a training ban... they could care less about CC... but undoubtedly want this lifted as well.
What do we say???? I will vote NO until future improvements are implemented, including:
Commuting clause
Real FOC's
Roster stability
the ability to drop trips properly
The company actually complying with FTL's and rostering practices
Everyone has room for their bag in the bag room
Everyone gets a locker!! Why does it take so long!!
Real Health insurance for me and my family, in HKG and my home country (covering everything - like a real company)
The elimination of doing online training events for free
The ability to opt out of flying with certain Captains
Ok... rant over.
I'm sure we have worked out all the kinks, and we will have an industry leading contract (for pilots).
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
From: Home
So we give away the 84 hour threshold so a handful of guys can take a base? WTF?
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 438
Likes: 0
From: Here ---> X
If crew now want bases and they're happy with the terms then why not?
"If these guys work 92 hours and are happy, why can't the others?"
Classic divide and conquer...
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 451
Likes: 6
From: the land of chocolate
Exactly, they are using the NY base as an excuse to prop up the hours, what do they do with the Toronto base, about the same flight time....
Or put the NY based guys on those lovely tpe and mnl splits that I see so often on my HKG based roster, would be on body clock and thus much safer. That's a way to fill the roster.
Or put the NY based guys on those lovely tpe and mnl splits that I see so often on my HKG based roster, would be on body clock and thus much safer. That's a way to fill the roster.
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 5
From: London
Oasis, don't be ridiculous. They have to give the split duties to HK crew. How else can they assure fatigued, weakened and dispirited crew who they can then more easily intimidate and threaten. Nope, can't give the split duties to pilots on the correct body clock. That would violate the CX Group protocols of staff control. 
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 218
Likes: 0
From: Milky Way
Dan is spot on.
92 hours is todays version of the loss of 5-4-3. Do we really want to go down that road again? Even AOAC hasn't signed up for it and they seem happy to sign up for anything to save a base! ��
92 hours is todays version of the loss of 5-4-3. Do we really want to go down that road again? Even AOAC hasn't signed up for it and they seem happy to sign up for anything to save a base! ��