Tired and Sad
Good points but the accountants (who rule the CX world) would say - 'What's wrong with that?'. There have been no accidents so they're right eh?
Aircraft are very reiable. And the cheese is quite wide but, given time, this foolish blueprint will result in a serious incident at CX. Another example of a ticking time bomb. CX has quite a few as we know..........
Aircraft are very reiable. And the cheese is quite wide but, given time, this foolish blueprint will result in a serious incident at CX. Another example of a ticking time bomb. CX has quite a few as we know..........
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Well actually Arfur, there have been two very recent accidents,: the Air France, and now the Air Asia, that have both crashed with the extremely inexperienced co-pilot at the controls. Both handling accidents.
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busdriver, a genuine question, but one I fear will be met with a not too pleasant response:
Why is it only when one's own personal lifestyle or CoS or remuneration package is threatened that (CX) pilots feel the need to call out and say "This is wrong / unfair!"
I don't see those getting upgraded or moved sideways from the Airbus fleet to the 777 fleet complaining and saying "I shouldn't do this. I'm potentially screwing a colleague over." No. I also don't hear a peep from AOA. Heaven forbid they (pilots in general but more so AOA members) decide it's "fair" to not accept a move to the 777 fleet (as per this example) at the expense of a more senior colleague, but to respect seniority and wait their turn. That may mean loss of income or lifestyle for some individuals but the greater good & long term conditions are protected.
It's only when ONE'S OWN conditions are threatened when people decide to voice a concern & vent some anger....and then the magic words "Someone should do something about this!" But until then so many appear to be lanyard parading AOA members with their own self interest at the very core. Sort of defies the definition of union (ooops - "Association") no?
Again, a genuine question. No offence intended. In fact I sympathise with your situation and wish things were different, and by that I mean fair. However one's past (the AOA's and CX management's) behaviour is the greatest predicator of future behaviour.
Why is it only when one's own personal lifestyle or CoS or remuneration package is threatened that (CX) pilots feel the need to call out and say "This is wrong / unfair!"
I don't see those getting upgraded or moved sideways from the Airbus fleet to the 777 fleet complaining and saying "I shouldn't do this. I'm potentially screwing a colleague over." No. I also don't hear a peep from AOA. Heaven forbid they (pilots in general but more so AOA members) decide it's "fair" to not accept a move to the 777 fleet (as per this example) at the expense of a more senior colleague, but to respect seniority and wait their turn. That may mean loss of income or lifestyle for some individuals but the greater good & long term conditions are protected.
It's only when ONE'S OWN conditions are threatened when people decide to voice a concern & vent some anger....and then the magic words "Someone should do something about this!" But until then so many appear to be lanyard parading AOA members with their own self interest at the very core. Sort of defies the definition of union (ooops - "Association") no?
Again, a genuine question. No offence intended. In fact I sympathise with your situation and wish things were different, and by that I mean fair. However one's past (the AOA's and CX management's) behaviour is the greatest predicator of future behaviour.
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If the scratch cuts too close to the bone then so bit it, logically speaking of course.....
As per the majority of your posts where you disagree with another's point of view, you come out attacking the person and not the ball. You think this is some platform for a p!ssing contest than it is to argue points of view. "15 - Love.... Your Serve." ????? Congratulations. You win. Like masturbation...when it's game played solo you'll win every time, or in your case draw the short straw to a one-sided victory. (Pun intended).
Argue the merits of your opinion & I'll gladly do the same with mine. If I'm proven wrong I'll also readily admit so. Until then I'm so bored with swapping posts to re-direct one's ego back to the main topic of asking them to justify their opinions.
And as you or most already know - I did stand my ground. I voted with my feet and said no to what so many sat back & did nothing about, including the AOA. I didn't have to depart the industry to maintain my integrity - something which you seem to believe is necessary.
Any person, be they a pilot or any person in any industry has every right to argue ("moan" as you put it) against breaches of the terms of their contracts, or the degradation of them which against the nature and definition of the original agreement. HOWEVER, if for example going to HK and complaining about the cost of living or pollution or influences of communist China into the HK SAR, etc, etc... is plain pathetic when you received exactly what you applied for and asked for in the first place.
So, no. I don't "moan" about what I applied for, interviewed for, requested and received. I did what you seem to believe impossible: I said no and walked away.
My sympathies are still with the wider CX pilot group as to how they are treated and the continued threats to your CoS, and more so with 'busdriver in this example. But while there are guys like you around then CX's divide and conquer mentality will remain strong and well: after all, it's all about YOU. There's a reason for the term "whinging pom".
So my point still remains the same, as you've so easily shown.
As per the majority of your posts where you disagree with another's point of view, you come out attacking the person and not the ball. You think this is some platform for a p!ssing contest than it is to argue points of view. "15 - Love.... Your Serve." ????? Congratulations. You win. Like masturbation...when it's game played solo you'll win every time, or in your case draw the short straw to a one-sided victory. (Pun intended).
Argue the merits of your opinion & I'll gladly do the same with mine. If I'm proven wrong I'll also readily admit so. Until then I'm so bored with swapping posts to re-direct one's ego back to the main topic of asking them to justify their opinions.
And as you or most already know - I did stand my ground. I voted with my feet and said no to what so many sat back & did nothing about, including the AOA. I didn't have to depart the industry to maintain my integrity - something which you seem to believe is necessary.
Any person, be they a pilot or any person in any industry has every right to argue ("moan" as you put it) against breaches of the terms of their contracts, or the degradation of them which against the nature and definition of the original agreement. HOWEVER, if for example going to HK and complaining about the cost of living or pollution or influences of communist China into the HK SAR, etc, etc... is plain pathetic when you received exactly what you applied for and asked for in the first place.
So, no. I don't "moan" about what I applied for, interviewed for, requested and received. I did what you seem to believe impossible: I said no and walked away.
My sympathies are still with the wider CX pilot group as to how they are treated and the continued threats to your CoS, and more so with 'busdriver in this example. But while there are guys like you around then CX's divide and conquer mentality will remain strong and well: after all, it's all about YOU. There's a reason for the term "whinging pom".
So my point still remains the same, as you've so easily shown.
Last edited by ChinaBeached; 5th Feb 2015 at 13:36.
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Jeepers China! Still pulling arrows out but can I ask one genuine question. In the ebb and flow of fortunes ANY individual comes across throughout a career like this, one way to get through is to :-
A) Stoically get on with things when it's your turn to draw a hand not to ones liking.
B) Grasp the good one in return when it pops up a few years later.
C) In parallel with that one can simultaneously attempt to right wrongs and improve things for all through Union membership and involvement.
I've personally had a couple of As, one B and keep going with C.
That Question: Looking at the big picture should I have thrown over my one good B opportunity?
In the meanwhile,a bit of light hearted banter and pithy ribbing of fellow avatars is a bit of light relief. I appear to have hit a nerve in your case - I genuinely had no idea you have left? CX? HKG? so if that appeared deliberately aimed, not so. In which case the "15 - Love your serve" would most certainly have seemed like a pissing contest entry, but as regards that comment my pants were zipped.
I guess "Deuce" and break for Tea and Tiffin would be out of the question?
A) Stoically get on with things when it's your turn to draw a hand not to ones liking.
B) Grasp the good one in return when it pops up a few years later.
C) In parallel with that one can simultaneously attempt to right wrongs and improve things for all through Union membership and involvement.
I've personally had a couple of As, one B and keep going with C.
That Question: Looking at the big picture should I have thrown over my one good B opportunity?
In the meanwhile,a bit of light hearted banter and pithy ribbing of fellow avatars is a bit of light relief. I appear to have hit a nerve in your case - I genuinely had no idea you have left? CX? HKG? so if that appeared deliberately aimed, not so. In which case the "15 - Love your serve" would most certainly have seemed like a pissing contest entry, but as regards that comment my pants were zipped.
I guess "Deuce" and break for Tea and Tiffin would be out of the question?
Which heads will roll, Frank?
We, as a generic group, are poor at bothering to write things down if, eventually, everything turns out well. Most of the time that's exactly what happens, of course. How many times have UK/EUR pilots done an AL that includes an early morning departure from Manilla or Tokyo? How often have we put up with appalling, thoughtless 'legal' rostering because it seems too hard not to? How often, when we are subjected to what can only be described as 'rostering abuse', do we report it by means of an ASR/ASR(F)/ MOR/ letter to the Fleet Office copied to the CAA/ report to the AOA??
We don't bother so the hapless Manager (poor Dear) really has very little ammo with which to make a case even if he/she wanted to.
I once asked why 3AL's on the trot were rostered as above ie with return sectors that effectively started for me at about 0100 with no sleep. A 'licence busting', potentially difficult trip that is deliberately planned at such a time!! The answer was that they would continue to roster such a flight ( preceded of course by an 18-30 hour 'rest period') becuse 'nobody complains'.
So there we have it. I have personally submitted post AL ASR(F)'s on 2 occassions and never heard any more about it. Next time, I will simply go sick in Tokyo due to predictable lack of rest and they can find someone else to fly the return sector of my AL. Can you imagine what kind of reception that would get when the last 50 UK based Captains have all 'completed the mission' successfully. If 10 of the first such pilots to be rostered that way went sick in Tokyo CC would never roster such a trip again.
Point is, mate, that nobody in CX or CAD would be held accountable unless something illegal had been done. Pilots would be blamed.
And that's just rostering. Corporate negligence in recruiting inappropriate cadets to fly serious machinery is another time bomb altogether!!
We, as a generic group, are poor at bothering to write things down if, eventually, everything turns out well. Most of the time that's exactly what happens, of course. How many times have UK/EUR pilots done an AL that includes an early morning departure from Manilla or Tokyo? How often have we put up with appalling, thoughtless 'legal' rostering because it seems too hard not to? How often, when we are subjected to what can only be described as 'rostering abuse', do we report it by means of an ASR/ASR(F)/ MOR/ letter to the Fleet Office copied to the CAA/ report to the AOA??
We don't bother so the hapless Manager (poor Dear) really has very little ammo with which to make a case even if he/she wanted to.
I once asked why 3AL's on the trot were rostered as above ie with return sectors that effectively started for me at about 0100 with no sleep. A 'licence busting', potentially difficult trip that is deliberately planned at such a time!! The answer was that they would continue to roster such a flight ( preceded of course by an 18-30 hour 'rest period') becuse 'nobody complains'.
So there we have it. I have personally submitted post AL ASR(F)'s on 2 occassions and never heard any more about it. Next time, I will simply go sick in Tokyo due to predictable lack of rest and they can find someone else to fly the return sector of my AL. Can you imagine what kind of reception that would get when the last 50 UK based Captains have all 'completed the mission' successfully. If 10 of the first such pilots to be rostered that way went sick in Tokyo CC would never roster such a trip again.
Point is, mate, that nobody in CX or CAD would be held accountable unless something illegal had been done. Pilots would be blamed.
And that's just rostering. Corporate negligence in recruiting inappropriate cadets to fly serious machinery is another time bomb altogether!!
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No raw nerve WN. The topic started by 'busdriver is a valid one & good for discussion in many branches & avenues related. I am just tired of general discussions & points of view that are immediately met with vitriol or attack when a logical swapping of ideas, arguments & points of view are thrown away.
I raised the question as a genuine thought seeking others' opinions. And yes, I knew it'd draw some heat because people generally don't like their industrial relations opinions or thoughts called into question. In fact pilots seem to exercise their rights & their action / inaction accordingly in a way to mimic investor rules of engagement: act out of fear or greed & rarely ever for the greater good (ie as per what a union or association is meant to defend).
Am all for light hearted banter - I just don't feel that attack is the most ideal primary form of conversation. So let's agree to leave it at that? I'm happy to discuss things related to this topic.
I raised the question as a genuine thought seeking others' opinions. And yes, I knew it'd draw some heat because people generally don't like their industrial relations opinions or thoughts called into question. In fact pilots seem to exercise their rights & their action / inaction accordingly in a way to mimic investor rules of engagement: act out of fear or greed & rarely ever for the greater good (ie as per what a union or association is meant to defend).
Am all for light hearted banter - I just don't feel that attack is the most ideal primary form of conversation. So let's agree to leave it at that? I'm happy to discuss things related to this topic.
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WN:
As I mentioned, it seems to me that (CX) pilots seem to make such industrial decisions based on just that: greed or fear. This my opinion based on a lot of studying of CX (pre and post 1994), having read Warham's book, my own personal experiences with CX, from nearly all or most AOA updates, DFO and GM updates as well as many, many colleagues at CX, resigned from CX or retired from CX.
I cannot speak for that one chance that flowed past in the river of scum as you put it. Maybe it was a chance grasped at for fear due a belief of nothing else or better presenting itself later?
My point refers to pilots wishing to see action taken only when they suffer personally, and rarely if ever when a collective good could benefit from some other decision or action. It is only then that we hear "we should do something" because of what happened to the "me".
As I've mentioned before, take C-Scale. The AOA did absolutely nothing about it. Nothing. Zero. Nadda. Nil. Zilch. Some rhetoric in one or two updates but that was it. Why, when this was such a massive attack on pilots' remuneration package? Why? Because back then the decision making members of the AOA, i.e. the GC didn't see it showing any loss of terms & conditions, CoS or remuneration package affecting THEM. The Association designed and defined to protect the collective group sat deafeningly idle. Nothing ever put to the members to vote on in order to protect the future (key word there!) of pilot's T&C's, CoS and all over remuneration package.
You mentioned "your" one good opportunity. The essence is on "your" opportunity. I don't know what that was. C-Scale? If so then I'll argue strongly that this was far, far, far from any "good opportunity" - but that's for another thread, or re-read past posts from others including me. So as not to deviate further from the thread I'm happy to discuss that via PMs.
Having said that had the Association that exists to protect pilots' rights, terms, conditions and CoS, etc have acted in a way (well, any way for that matter) to fight such a raping of pilot contracts and remuneration package then C-Scale may have been avoided. In so doing saving many from themselves, as we all need doing from time to time.
Fall on my sword as you ask? In your terms I did. I explored every avenue to investigate the offer before me including meeting with CX HR and more over many, many conversations with friends at CX: SO's, FO's and Capt's. I swapped several emails & letters with the AOA. The overwhelming evidence & advice from all sources (including CX HR - they have husbands as CX pilots and knew the ramifications of such a contract) was to not take it for all the right reasons. The sword I fell on as you say ended up being a blessing in disguise. I now have a widebody career with a package that will allow me to retire comfortably from, sound career progression, money to save for investments and I can raise a family on a single income when and as those single income times come about in life. Is life perfect? No. But I do not moan about what I asked for, applied for, accepted and receive.
So, back to 'busdriver's post. I can appreciate why he's sick and tired. At CX it seems every 3-5 years there's another push & shove that threatens pilots' T&C's. Here is it lifestyle that should be rewarded on the back of seniority.
Will those Airbus pilots being offered a 777 conversation and upgrade so no to that opportunity coming past in that river of scum? Probably or most definitely not, because as I mentioned, past behaviour is the greatest indicator of future behaviour in the CX pilot community's culture of "me first", while parading the AOA lanyard that is meant to represent the complete opposite.
As I mentioned, it seems to me that (CX) pilots seem to make such industrial decisions based on just that: greed or fear. This my opinion based on a lot of studying of CX (pre and post 1994), having read Warham's book, my own personal experiences with CX, from nearly all or most AOA updates, DFO and GM updates as well as many, many colleagues at CX, resigned from CX or retired from CX.
I cannot speak for that one chance that flowed past in the river of scum as you put it. Maybe it was a chance grasped at for fear due a belief of nothing else or better presenting itself later?
My point refers to pilots wishing to see action taken only when they suffer personally, and rarely if ever when a collective good could benefit from some other decision or action. It is only then that we hear "we should do something" because of what happened to the "me".
As I've mentioned before, take C-Scale. The AOA did absolutely nothing about it. Nothing. Zero. Nadda. Nil. Zilch. Some rhetoric in one or two updates but that was it. Why, when this was such a massive attack on pilots' remuneration package? Why? Because back then the decision making members of the AOA, i.e. the GC didn't see it showing any loss of terms & conditions, CoS or remuneration package affecting THEM. The Association designed and defined to protect the collective group sat deafeningly idle. Nothing ever put to the members to vote on in order to protect the future (key word there!) of pilot's T&C's, CoS and all over remuneration package.
You mentioned "your" one good opportunity. The essence is on "your" opportunity. I don't know what that was. C-Scale? If so then I'll argue strongly that this was far, far, far from any "good opportunity" - but that's for another thread, or re-read past posts from others including me. So as not to deviate further from the thread I'm happy to discuss that via PMs.
Having said that had the Association that exists to protect pilots' rights, terms, conditions and CoS, etc have acted in a way (well, any way for that matter) to fight such a raping of pilot contracts and remuneration package then C-Scale may have been avoided. In so doing saving many from themselves, as we all need doing from time to time.
Fall on my sword as you ask? In your terms I did. I explored every avenue to investigate the offer before me including meeting with CX HR and more over many, many conversations with friends at CX: SO's, FO's and Capt's. I swapped several emails & letters with the AOA. The overwhelming evidence & advice from all sources (including CX HR - they have husbands as CX pilots and knew the ramifications of such a contract) was to not take it for all the right reasons. The sword I fell on as you say ended up being a blessing in disguise. I now have a widebody career with a package that will allow me to retire comfortably from, sound career progression, money to save for investments and I can raise a family on a single income when and as those single income times come about in life. Is life perfect? No. But I do not moan about what I asked for, applied for, accepted and receive.
So, back to 'busdriver's post. I can appreciate why he's sick and tired. At CX it seems every 3-5 years there's another push & shove that threatens pilots' T&C's. Here is it lifestyle that should be rewarded on the back of seniority.
Will those Airbus pilots being offered a 777 conversation and upgrade so no to that opportunity coming past in that river of scum? Probably or most definitely not, because as I mentioned, past behaviour is the greatest indicator of future behaviour in the CX pilot community's culture of "me first", while parading the AOA lanyard that is meant to represent the complete opposite.
Last edited by ChinaBeached; 7th Feb 2015 at 09:17.
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Fair Answer - don't necessarily agree with all of it but hey... admire the courage of your personal convictions. It kinda doesn't seem like you've achieved closure over the whole thing though, to be so active here, and have such detailed opinions about an organisation you chose to leave behind you. Genuinely hope you and family get there.
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You're right China, we only start moaning when something ****ty starts to happen to us.
It is human nature, the survival of the fittest, and the struggle for existence and all that.
I kind of think it is a bit like if a child gets a splinter. The child cries out and mum or dad come with tweezers hopefully and pull it out.
But what would happen if the child cried and nobody came and helped? Mum and dad just said, "Hey, stop whining. We had splinters, they were bigger and tougher than that splinter you've got. Bad luck. Life sucks. Get on with it".
I'm not a psychologist, but I think I know what would happen. It's kind of what is happening now in CX, on the Airbus fleet, and from what others are saying, the 744 fleet too.
And to use another analogy (which I think has been used here before): what is happening is like an engine being run at red line (and often times over when the operator deems it "should" be OK, because it wasn't stated that it "couldn't"), to the point that it is constantly run at the limit.
We all know an engine was not designed to be run at limits, and we all know what happens to engines that are operated like that. They break down, become unreliable. Need more servicing. And sometimes they just stop, and never start again.
It will be interesting, of that I'm sure.
"May the company operate in interesting times".....
It is human nature, the survival of the fittest, and the struggle for existence and all that.
I kind of think it is a bit like if a child gets a splinter. The child cries out and mum or dad come with tweezers hopefully and pull it out.
But what would happen if the child cried and nobody came and helped? Mum and dad just said, "Hey, stop whining. We had splinters, they were bigger and tougher than that splinter you've got. Bad luck. Life sucks. Get on with it".
I'm not a psychologist, but I think I know what would happen. It's kind of what is happening now in CX, on the Airbus fleet, and from what others are saying, the 744 fleet too.
And to use another analogy (which I think has been used here before): what is happening is like an engine being run at red line (and often times over when the operator deems it "should" be OK, because it wasn't stated that it "couldn't"), to the point that it is constantly run at the limit.
We all know an engine was not designed to be run at limits, and we all know what happens to engines that are operated like that. They break down, become unreliable. Need more servicing. And sometimes they just stop, and never start again.
It will be interesting, of that I'm sure.
"May the company operate in interesting times".....
Last edited by anotherbusdriver; 10th Feb 2015 at 22:47.
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Code of conduct
Interesting interpretation of events that are considered unacceptable by crew members.
Harassment takes many forms but can generally be defined as unwelcome behaviour which a reasonable person would consider to be offensive or intimidating or which otherwise creates a hostile or offensive working environment
Intimidation of other crew members not following Contract compliance is a no no
But crew control putting pressure on crew to operate flights during G days or rest periods between sectors is deemed okay
So being told by a crew controller
"But if you don't help out we will have to cancel the flight "
Or my personal,favourite " Oh but don't you have 2 hours of discretion "
Or "But it's legal " when querying the 12+ hours of Duty travel following a 10 hour sector
If that isn't unacceptable pressure I don't know what is
Harassment takes many forms but can generally be defined as unwelcome behaviour which a reasonable person would consider to be offensive or intimidating or which otherwise creates a hostile or offensive working environment
Intimidation of other crew members not following Contract compliance is a no no
But crew control putting pressure on crew to operate flights during G days or rest periods between sectors is deemed okay
So being told by a crew controller
"But if you don't help out we will have to cancel the flight "
Or my personal,favourite " Oh but don't you have 2 hours of discretion "
Or "But it's legal " when querying the 12+ hours of Duty travel following a 10 hour sector
If that isn't unacceptable pressure I don't know what is
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Yes - agreed. All too often human nature doesn't permit us to see a bigger picture or to see the warning signs until too late. However I do feel that the AOA is perhaps that parent & comprises of team(s) of "professionals" to guide the membership for the greater good. "Don't climb into that bush of thorns" would be an apt warning to prevent splinters & as I mentioned is a way to protect people from themselves.
For me, & others it seems, the AOA & pilots in general only target the fights applicable to their own back pockets, own careers or own lifestyle.
Personally I wish you a better & more satisfying career. Seniority has been earned & deserves to be respected.
The same with CC. My mates at CX however tell me that while many are following it there are still too many lanyard parading individuals still working on G days as well as other "me first" agendas. Still, I hope it works. You (at CX) deserve a better deal & more over respect from your management.
For me, & others it seems, the AOA & pilots in general only target the fights applicable to their own back pockets, own careers or own lifestyle.
Personally I wish you a better & more satisfying career. Seniority has been earned & deserves to be respected.
The same with CC. My mates at CX however tell me that while many are following it there are still too many lanyard parading individuals still working on G days as well as other "me first" agendas. Still, I hope it works. You (at CX) deserve a better deal & more over respect from your management.
