Hong Kong Airlines - New/Relevant info
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I hear what you all are saying but some of us are really out of options on choices and begging for jobs right now. I agree that some of the stuff that's going on isn't the greatest but for a select few of us it's better than what we have now or are capable of getting without either gaining a completely new foreign license or going to a pay to fly scheme.
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I will just say a few words for those that "know what's best" for some!!!
When you are stuck in Europe, or in USA, or in South America in a small company, or in a bigger company, on a not so "great" aircraft, with a crappy salary and with almost zero perspective, then you will take whatever in behind door nr.2!
When almost all the European companies make the pilots pay the TR for a B737 or A320, and one has NOT the financial means or does not agree with this type on "procedure" will take, again what's behind door nr.2!!
The salaries in the Asian market are NOT small at all...btw, have you seen the amount of money a Ryanair FO is making???? How dare we blame people for wanting something better.
Looking from your positions, gentlemen, with thousands of hours on an Airbus or a Boeing, with your upgrades and some money stacked (if you were smart enough) it seems that we're all idiots
...I believe you are out of contact with the real job market problems back here...
Maybe it's not Heaven, but most certainly it's better than a Regional in Europe/US which pays 2500 EUR or USD/month for an FO...
It depends, of course what the hell you want from life: you want a PIC or F/O position where you fly 900HRS/year and get30.000 to 60.000E/year, with no permanent contract, no medical, etc ??? or you fly 700hrs/year and get 110.000E/year, maybe with medical insurance? Expenses are not very different...in Milano a nice apartment will set you back around 1500-2000E/month in a nice district... London even more expensive...And you will STILL be away from home... True, in Europe...flying for a low cost...
Wake the hell up and look around...it's a freaking jungle due to those that took bank loans and payed their TR, and set the "habit"...
management!!!
Please be so kind and
DO NOT get into a rough discussion here...it's just my humble opinion...
When you are stuck in Europe, or in USA, or in South America in a small company, or in a bigger company, on a not so "great" aircraft, with a crappy salary and with almost zero perspective, then you will take whatever in behind door nr.2!
When almost all the European companies make the pilots pay the TR for a B737 or A320, and one has NOT the financial means or does not agree with this type on "procedure" will take, again what's behind door nr.2!!
The salaries in the Asian market are NOT small at all...btw, have you seen the amount of money a Ryanair FO is making???? How dare we blame people for wanting something better.
Looking from your positions, gentlemen, with thousands of hours on an Airbus or a Boeing, with your upgrades and some money stacked (if you were smart enough) it seems that we're all idiots
...I believe you are out of contact with the real job market problems back here... Maybe it's not Heaven, but most certainly it's better than a Regional in Europe/US which pays 2500 EUR or USD/month for an FO...It depends, of course what the hell you want from life: you want a PIC or F/O position where you fly 900HRS/year and get30.000 to 60.000E/year, with no permanent contract, no medical, etc ??? or you fly 700hrs/year and get 110.000E/year, maybe with medical insurance? Expenses are not very different...in Milano a nice apartment will set you back around 1500-2000E/month in a nice district... London even more expensive...And you will STILL be away from home... True, in Europe...flying for a low cost...
Wake the hell up and look around...it's a freaking jungle due to those that took bank loans and payed their TR, and set the "habit"...
management!!!Please be so kind and
DO NOT get into a rough discussion here...it's just my humble opinion...
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I know what you're pointing out, but in Italy, a FO will make 1800-2500EUR/ month...imagine living in a nice place with this kind of money. While in HKG, out of 80.000HKD - roughly, you may spend 25.000 for a nice serviced apartment in Lantau for e.g.
well, maybe PICs in Lufthansa, making 250.000 Eur/year can afford a 5000 eur/month rent...
Cost of living in Asia is high? A coffee in LHR is 4pounds...a pint is 6...a decent meal in a Pub is 15-20pounds... and the income is still LOW...
so you make more money, you spend more...
I know you get my point and my "anger", so to speak...
well, maybe PICs in Lufthansa, making 250.000 Eur/year can afford a 5000 eur/month rent...
Cost of living in Asia is high? A coffee in LHR is 4pounds...a pint is 6...a decent meal in a Pub is 15-20pounds... and the income is still LOW...
so you make more money, you spend more...
I know you get my point and my "anger", so to speak...
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Sebatsea...
Good points..but I still think you are not clear on what our keen frens are seeking...to join or not HKA? Maybe you know something but you are holding back?
Maybe you work for someone in Hk...I don't know mate. But if you do, it would be nice to come straight to the point..cheers
Good points..but I still think you are not clear on what our keen frens are seeking...to join or not HKA? Maybe you know something but you are holding back?
Maybe you work for someone in Hk...I don't know mate. But if you do, it would be nice to come straight to the point..cheers
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In that case I'll have to brain storm what else I'm good at doing because there isn't much else I enjoy doing and an office job is not my thing. I agree with you 100% aviation is on a extreme downward spiral. It's gone a full 180 only a privileged rich few can afford the options that are available now. Pay 2 fly or pay your own type, minimums so high that guys just getting a license won't stand a chance for years to come. I'll take your advice, 2000+ hours 3 ATPs into this I think I'm going to call it quits.
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Well Dan you "old-timers" were absolutely right but a lot of you have also failed to admit that the industry is screwed up because of the "old-timers" if you look at the people in management in most companies they are part of the baby boom era. If you look at the economy it's a a downward spiral but again who are the heads of all these corporations "the baby boomers aka the old-timers". One generation alone has managed to screw up so many things on a global scale. Is agree that all these airlines should be paying more but again it is a privilege for an airline to give you housing or offer housing allowance, it isn't something they have to give. You made the decision to take a job in a foreign country so you should have to find your own place to live on your salary not the company giving you a housing allowance or giving housing it's a privilege that they do. Abuse of that privilege and many others by pilots themselves has caused managements to take away or lower these privileges. I personally find that is what a lot of the "old-timers" are not admitting to themselves. Taking huge housing allowances and buying houses and pocketing the remainder of the cash just milking the cow. Well due to the abused of that generation the shoe is now on the other foot for this generation and it's a damn shame that this generation not only have to deal with the destruction of the generation before us but we also have to find a solution to see to it that those after us never go through what we did. Abuse only begets more abuse people. Own up to your mistakes.
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Sebatsea wrote:
"Maybe it's not Heaven, but most certainly it's better than a Regional in Europe/US which pays 2500 EUR or USD/month for an FO..."
Remember that is just 1st year FO pay in the States. And remember ALL regional pilots in the States must have an ATP not a "frozen" ATPL as in Euro land.
Most regional guys in the States are staying put and waiting for a chance for a move to a Legacy or a LCC. Trust me, not many desperate American regional FO's wanting to move and live in HK for s**t pay and s**t conditions. You may be making more, but your cost of living will be nominally more. And if they do make the move, what will it get them? A 2000 hour FO on an A330 who moves back to the States or a 2000 hour FO on a CRJ or ATR who stayed in the States will still be first year FO's at the US legacy carrier they get hired on...So I don't see the advantage of jumping ship to Hong Kong for Regional FO's...Hence the difference between them and you. They see the big picture and will patiently wait it out while you will be playing musical chairs jumping from one job to the other and thinking you are beating the "system" while eroding conditions for other pilots....
"Maybe it's not Heaven, but most certainly it's better than a Regional in Europe/US which pays 2500 EUR or USD/month for an FO..."
Remember that is just 1st year FO pay in the States. And remember ALL regional pilots in the States must have an ATP not a "frozen" ATPL as in Euro land.
Most regional guys in the States are staying put and waiting for a chance for a move to a Legacy or a LCC. Trust me, not many desperate American regional FO's wanting to move and live in HK for s**t pay and s**t conditions. You may be making more, but your cost of living will be nominally more. And if they do make the move, what will it get them? A 2000 hour FO on an A330 who moves back to the States or a 2000 hour FO on a CRJ or ATR who stayed in the States will still be first year FO's at the US legacy carrier they get hired on...So I don't see the advantage of jumping ship to Hong Kong for Regional FO's...Hence the difference between them and you. They see the big picture and will patiently wait it out while you will be playing musical chairs jumping from one job to the other and thinking you are beating the "system" while eroding conditions for other pilots....
Last edited by TheBiggerD; 3rd Nov 2015 at 02:25.
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You lot need to give the kids a break. Sure, it's a dirty hand they've been dealt, and they have to just suck it up for a few years. If they're young free and single they might even enjoy HKG - maybe find a rich Chinese gf to spoil them.
It's the senior guys who really shouldn't be in HKA. They have options, and they exercise them on a weekly basis, when the timing is correct for them.
HKA is demonstrably a worse job than RyanAir. At least in FR you won't be flying freighters (or Pax) around the backside of the clock, followed by minimum rest and do it again. In FR you get to sleep in your own bed most nights.
In FR you get a fixed roster pattern. 5-3-5-4 is it?
In HKA you'll work 6 days on the trot, get 1 day off, and then whatever they like after that. Legal Mins, Legal Max's - ad infinitum. No pattern. No predictability. No stability.
In FR you fly in civilised Europe, with competent and co-operative ATC. In China you get to learn how to survive in an ATC war zone.
In Europe you get a bit of fog, a bit of wind, a bit of ice or snow - with good infrastructure to help you deal with it.
In China you'll face typhoons, monster CBs and the fog, snow and ice too at certain times. All with little or zero infrastructural assistance (refusal of WX deviations etc) and ATC who seem determined to kill you, or at least drive you insane. Remember - the buck ALWAYS stops with YOU.
In HKA, if you don't DOT every i, and CROSS every t correctly you'll be hounded and harassed by junior office clerks and pen pushers who will instruct you on the errors of your ways.
You'll constantly be reminded you're a gweilo, and not really wanted.
If you face bigger problems - an incident - the management will gladly rush to hang you, to protect their own asses, and the organisation. You are a Patsy.
Not many can stick it out for very long. The mental and physical fatigue takes its toll on even the most strong willed and resilient. Everyone finally reaches their limit.
Also, be prepared to be lied to and misled at every turn. Remember that at the interview.
And forget about going home to your family in Europe, or anywhere else. There is no commuting roster, and they'll die rather than give you even a regular series of days off. That would spoil you! Could encourage unwanted extracurricular activities (like, a family).
Swopping is severely discouraged.
Every form of petty penny pinching mean spirited imbecility will be constantly foisted on you.
That's the deal. Eat it and smile.
It's the senior guys who really shouldn't be in HKA. They have options, and they exercise them on a weekly basis, when the timing is correct for them.
HKA is demonstrably a worse job than RyanAir. At least in FR you won't be flying freighters (or Pax) around the backside of the clock, followed by minimum rest and do it again. In FR you get to sleep in your own bed most nights.
In FR you get a fixed roster pattern. 5-3-5-4 is it?
In HKA you'll work 6 days on the trot, get 1 day off, and then whatever they like after that. Legal Mins, Legal Max's - ad infinitum. No pattern. No predictability. No stability.
In FR you fly in civilised Europe, with competent and co-operative ATC. In China you get to learn how to survive in an ATC war zone.
In Europe you get a bit of fog, a bit of wind, a bit of ice or snow - with good infrastructure to help you deal with it.
In China you'll face typhoons, monster CBs and the fog, snow and ice too at certain times. All with little or zero infrastructural assistance (refusal of WX deviations etc) and ATC who seem determined to kill you, or at least drive you insane. Remember - the buck ALWAYS stops with YOU.
In HKA, if you don't DOT every i, and CROSS every t correctly you'll be hounded and harassed by junior office clerks and pen pushers who will instruct you on the errors of your ways.
You'll constantly be reminded you're a gweilo, and not really wanted.
If you face bigger problems - an incident - the management will gladly rush to hang you, to protect their own asses, and the organisation. You are a Patsy.
Not many can stick it out for very long. The mental and physical fatigue takes its toll on even the most strong willed and resilient. Everyone finally reaches their limit.
Also, be prepared to be lied to and misled at every turn. Remember that at the interview.
And forget about going home to your family in Europe, or anywhere else. There is no commuting roster, and they'll die rather than give you even a regular series of days off. That would spoil you! Could encourage unwanted extracurricular activities (like, a family).
Swopping is severely discouraged.
Every form of petty penny pinching mean spirited imbecility will be constantly foisted on you.
That's the deal. Eat it and smile.
Last edited by Algol; 3rd Nov 2015 at 09:53.
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This is getting a bit too far.
1. @TheBiggerD I am wondering WHY are there so MANY U.S. pilots EVERYWHERE CX, QR, EK, EY, Copa, Astana, Air China, Spring, Shenzen, ETC ??? Is it because they went into the spiral? Since now you need ATPL in the US, why don't they go back home? I met guys, that will NOT go back to the US, for simple reasons: TAX, cost of living, families abroad...
2.@ coldastone - I am employed by a small Regional company in Europe. I have more than 2500HRS total, 2300jet time. My pay scale is stuck since 3 years ago...and as an FO, will be stuck for good...No upgrades in sight, no options... I started late, age wise, but now it's time to see what can I do about it...
I am not speaking out for everybody, since everybody has his own reasons for finding another job. Blaming one another, is quite easy, but the blame is also on the markets, on the Low Cost carriers, and ultimately on the Flying Schools selling you the dream, and some other entrepreneurs (TRO, SIM owners, providing "interview training") that seized the opportunity to skin young wannabe pilots alive...it's as simple as that...
1. @TheBiggerD I am wondering WHY are there so MANY U.S. pilots EVERYWHERE CX, QR, EK, EY, Copa, Astana, Air China, Spring, Shenzen, ETC ??? Is it because they went into the spiral? Since now you need ATPL in the US, why don't they go back home? I met guys, that will NOT go back to the US, for simple reasons: TAX, cost of living, families abroad...
2.@ coldastone - I am employed by a small Regional company in Europe. I have more than 2500HRS total, 2300jet time. My pay scale is stuck since 3 years ago...and as an FO, will be stuck for good...No upgrades in sight, no options... I started late, age wise, but now it's time to see what can I do about it...
I am not speaking out for everybody, since everybody has his own reasons for finding another job. Blaming one another, is quite easy, but the blame is also on the markets, on the Low Cost carriers, and ultimately on the Flying Schools selling you the dream, and some other entrepreneurs (TRO, SIM owners, providing "interview training") that seized the opportunity to skin young wannabe pilots alive...it's as simple as that...
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Regarding point 8.
Very true.
When the weather turns nasty and the sh1t starts to hit the fan - the management make themselves scarce. There is no back-up for the line pilots facing the music. Nobody will ever make the decision to cancel. Operations is run by a nameless and faceless group in a building miles away, who seem to have no authority vested in them either.
Any decision to cancel falls squarely on the Captain, and woe betide him if they don't like the decision. It's generally as I H K says - better to go, take tons extra, and divert. They don't care. That lifts the decision making off their shoulders entirely.
On the other hand - if you go, and things turn out badly (severe weather encounters etc) you will be nailed to a cross.
It's a sick joke.
The pilots of HKA save the skin of that company on a daily basis, and get nothing but abuse in return.
Very true.
When the weather turns nasty and the sh1t starts to hit the fan - the management make themselves scarce. There is no back-up for the line pilots facing the music. Nobody will ever make the decision to cancel. Operations is run by a nameless and faceless group in a building miles away, who seem to have no authority vested in them either.
Any decision to cancel falls squarely on the Captain, and woe betide him if they don't like the decision. It's generally as I H K says - better to go, take tons extra, and divert. They don't care. That lifts the decision making off their shoulders entirely.
On the other hand - if you go, and things turn out badly (severe weather encounters etc) you will be nailed to a cross.
It's a sick joke.
The pilots of HKA save the skin of that company on a daily basis, and get nothing but abuse in return.
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Sebatsea,
Simple as to why they don't go back home.
They don't want to be a first year FO at a Legacy. Simple. You can be a 777 captain at EK and if you come back home and apply for a job with a Legacy carrier they will be in the same spot as a regional captain or FO who stayed home and applied for the same job at a legacy.
Hmmmm, an expat American pilot at Air China, Astana, or COPA or a pilot with a US legacy living in your home country with US laws and ALPA in place?......Easy decision; no brainer.....Trust me there is more to the story than what they are telling you or what you are hearing through the rumor mill......
Sebatsea, ultimately what is your long term career goal? Do you want to stay in Europe or are you willing to go halfway across the world to pursue the "dream".....If you want to live and work in Europe my advice is stay put and network, network, network like mad.....
If I had to leave the US and pursue the job with my wife and two young kids in hand, I would personally leave the industry. Being halfway around the world from friends and family to "live the dream", not my cup of tea personally. Much respect to those who do it.
Finally Sebatsea, don't blame the flight schools and TRTO's. Especially in the day and age of the internet and quick Google searches, all of the information is at one's fingertips....You mentioned that you have 2500 hours TT of which 2300 is in a jet. So you walked into a jet straight out of flight school!!!! You my friend really have nothing to complain about. Many of us had more than 2500 hrs TT before we even got a jet job!!!!
Simple as to why they don't go back home.
They don't want to be a first year FO at a Legacy. Simple. You can be a 777 captain at EK and if you come back home and apply for a job with a Legacy carrier they will be in the same spot as a regional captain or FO who stayed home and applied for the same job at a legacy.
Hmmmm, an expat American pilot at Air China, Astana, or COPA or a pilot with a US legacy living in your home country with US laws and ALPA in place?......Easy decision; no brainer.....Trust me there is more to the story than what they are telling you or what you are hearing through the rumor mill......
Sebatsea, ultimately what is your long term career goal? Do you want to stay in Europe or are you willing to go halfway across the world to pursue the "dream".....If you want to live and work in Europe my advice is stay put and network, network, network like mad.....
If I had to leave the US and pursue the job with my wife and two young kids in hand, I would personally leave the industry. Being halfway around the world from friends and family to "live the dream", not my cup of tea personally. Much respect to those who do it.
Finally Sebatsea, don't blame the flight schools and TRTO's. Especially in the day and age of the internet and quick Google searches, all of the information is at one's fingertips....You mentioned that you have 2500 hours TT of which 2300 is in a jet. So you walked into a jet straight out of flight school!!!! You my friend really have nothing to complain about. Many of us had more than 2500 hrs TT before we even got a jet job!!!!
Last edited by TheBiggerD; 3rd Nov 2015 at 13:48.
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So, if this situation you are telling corresponds to reality, then it is really hard to live in HKA.
But from my info, the average salary of a FO on A320 should be around 7000 Euros per month, is it true?
I ask you, for those who know the cost of apartments in KH, are you unable to live there with this money? That is not a polemic, I ask for info, I am not informed about this topic.
Rather I'd like you remind what is the quality of life for instance in executive in Europe: very low salary, around 1200 euro month, no private life, crazy roster (you should be on duty 10 days but you will extend one week more), ftl..mmm no comment. Maybe someone would like to try to change this path moving somewhere, maybe HKA could be the only opportunity. But of course, if the situation in HKA was really so horrible, you could try and then...nobody will put a gun on your head to remain there, you can give up with this lifestyle and jobdream, back to normal life, family and friends, and bye bye to the aviation market.
At least, you tried it.
But from my info, the average salary of a FO on A320 should be around 7000 Euros per month, is it true?
I ask you, for those who know the cost of apartments in KH, are you unable to live there with this money? That is not a polemic, I ask for info, I am not informed about this topic.
Rather I'd like you remind what is the quality of life for instance in executive in Europe: very low salary, around 1200 euro month, no private life, crazy roster (you should be on duty 10 days but you will extend one week more), ftl..mmm no comment. Maybe someone would like to try to change this path moving somewhere, maybe HKA could be the only opportunity. But of course, if the situation in HKA was really so horrible, you could try and then...nobody will put a gun on your head to remain there, you can give up with this lifestyle and jobdream, back to normal life, family and friends, and bye bye to the aviation market.
At least, you tried it.
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@Tekor
Hi Tekor, EUR7k now equals around HKD60k per month. Is that net of taxes, or not? I am going to assume that is net.
Can you do it? Sure. But you'll be surprised what little it does do.
Family? I recommend Tung Chung or Discovery Bay. You are looking at 25k minimum for any place to have a family, and it will not be great. That leaves you 35k. School? Minimum 8k per child (+1k for the bus) and that is a school that people will cringe when you speak to them about. Now you are pushing it in your day-to-day expenses.
No Family? You can try to live somewhere else. For a one bedroom, you can look at HK Island. it will probably cost you 20k to 25k unless you go a studio route. This is where it deviates. If you go old and small, you may even be able to get something under 20k. If you want new and small, it will push 25k, likewise if you want old and big. If you want new & big, it will be over 25k. Sure, you can play the neighborhood game, and if you are willing to go to a very local neighborhood, like Sha Tin, you may be able to save up to 3k. But you may not have many friends around you, and you'll find your transportation costs go up correspondingly to your savings.
For either, you can find your grocery costs going up. If you eat out for a Western style meal, it will cost you between HKD150-300, and likely double if you add alcohol. Not a drinker, it will save you some. Non-Western meals will save you about 50% too. Cucumbers from Holland? HKD30. It adds up. Especially since the grocery prices follow CPI, but your wage increases won't. For example, a package of four US chicken breasts was HKD115 when I moved here, it's HKD154 now.
The best bargain in HK is transport which is more or less the same cost as when I moved her almost 9 years ago.
In summary, if you are single, selective about where you live and see many places before you decide, and be judicious about eating out (I assume a single guy won't be cooking) you can do it and you may even save a little.
Can you do it? Sure. But you'll be surprised what little it does do.
Family? I recommend Tung Chung or Discovery Bay. You are looking at 25k minimum for any place to have a family, and it will not be great. That leaves you 35k. School? Minimum 8k per child (+1k for the bus) and that is a school that people will cringe when you speak to them about. Now you are pushing it in your day-to-day expenses.
No Family? You can try to live somewhere else. For a one bedroom, you can look at HK Island. it will probably cost you 20k to 25k unless you go a studio route. This is where it deviates. If you go old and small, you may even be able to get something under 20k. If you want new and small, it will push 25k, likewise if you want old and big. If you want new & big, it will be over 25k. Sure, you can play the neighborhood game, and if you are willing to go to a very local neighborhood, like Sha Tin, you may be able to save up to 3k. But you may not have many friends around you, and you'll find your transportation costs go up correspondingly to your savings.
For either, you can find your grocery costs going up. If you eat out for a Western style meal, it will cost you between HKD150-300, and likely double if you add alcohol. Not a drinker, it will save you some. Non-Western meals will save you about 50% too. Cucumbers from Holland? HKD30. It adds up. Especially since the grocery prices follow CPI, but your wage increases won't. For example, a package of four US chicken breasts was HKD115 when I moved here, it's HKD154 now.
The best bargain in HK is transport which is more or less the same cost as when I moved her almost 9 years ago.
In summary, if you are single, selective about where you live and see many places before you decide, and be judicious about eating out (I assume a single guy won't be cooking) you can do it and you may even save a little.
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@azhkman
Thank you azhkman.
Let me see how things will go...not sure, but you confirmed what I knew, regarding price and areas for living, many crews in Discovery Bay.
Wife and baby are the biggest challenge, to go or not to go. Not for the moment, maybe after.
Are you from AZ?
Cheers
Let me see how things will go...not sure, but you confirmed what I knew, regarding price and areas for living, many crews in Discovery Bay.
Wife and baby are the biggest challenge, to go or not to go. Not for the moment, maybe after.
Are you from AZ?
Cheers
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Spot On!
Here is a little something I wrote earlier on another thread. I've copied it for simplicity's sake.
To put it into perspective; a few years ago I applied for a captain position with a low cost Hong Kong carrier to fly the A320. Being licensed in Hong Kong, having plenty of Hong Kong/China experience and having a permanent HK ID I was quickly offered a position with the start-up. It was pretty exciting for us, thinking about all the things we loved about Hong Kong. It was time to do the math before I officially accepted the position. We started with housing. By browsing real estate websites, and knowing where we wanted to live, we started jotting down rent. From there is was schooling: debentures fees were through the roof and there was a high probability that we weren't going to get our kids a placement in school without having to fork out at least $C 70,0000 (non-refundable, and no guarantee of a placement in the school). School fees were not cheap, nor was the cost of living (which was considerably higher since we had left). Add transportation, utilities etc. when we added up all the potential expenses, the salary (which was certainly not minimum wage) would not cover them. We then had to change where we were to live in order to make our numbers work. Tung Chung was pretty much the only place we could live where the rents were a bit lower and we could avoid transportation. Bottom line: a move to Hong Kong would mean that we could put $1000 per month into our pockets as disposable income. Staying in Canada, selling our principle residence, downsizing and reinvesting the equity, sending our kids to public school, we could live on a minimum wage salary in Canada - albeit not in the lifestyle we are accustomed to. Doing the same, moving to Hong Kong and working for a low-cost carrier, we would be treading water at best with no guarantee of educating our children. It didn't make economic sense three years ago and it hasn't changed. To top it off, why would I want to work in a toxic environment where very few pilots respect their company and management simply has no respect for their staff? Hong Kong used to be the be-all, end-all for many aspiring and experienced pilots, now unless you are already established, it is nothing more than a temporary stop. Minimum wage is relative: to many Canadians they get by - just. Minimum wage in Hong Kong is a fast track to poverty.
To put it into perspective; a few years ago I applied for a captain position with a low cost Hong Kong carrier to fly the A320. Being licensed in Hong Kong, having plenty of Hong Kong/China experience and having a permanent HK ID I was quickly offered a position with the start-up. It was pretty exciting for us, thinking about all the things we loved about Hong Kong. It was time to do the math before I officially accepted the position. We started with housing. By browsing real estate websites, and knowing where we wanted to live, we started jotting down rent. From there is was schooling: debentures fees were through the roof and there was a high probability that we weren't going to get our kids a placement in school without having to fork out at least $C 70,0000 (non-refundable, and no guarantee of a placement in the school). School fees were not cheap, nor was the cost of living (which was considerably higher since we had left). Add transportation, utilities etc. when we added up all the potential expenses, the salary (which was certainly not minimum wage) would not cover them. We then had to change where we were to live in order to make our numbers work. Tung Chung was pretty much the only place we could live where the rents were a bit lower and we could avoid transportation. Bottom line: a move to Hong Kong would mean that we could put $1000 per month into our pockets as disposable income. Staying in Canada, selling our principle residence, downsizing and reinvesting the equity, sending our kids to public school, we could live on a minimum wage salary in Canada - albeit not in the lifestyle we are accustomed to. Doing the same, moving to Hong Kong and working for a low-cost carrier, we would be treading water at best with no guarantee of educating our children. It didn't make economic sense three years ago and it hasn't changed. To top it off, why would I want to work in a toxic environment where very few pilots respect their company and management simply has no respect for their staff? Hong Kong used to be the be-all, end-all for many aspiring and experienced pilots, now unless you are already established, it is nothing more than a temporary stop. Minimum wage is relative: to many Canadians they get by - just. Minimum wage in Hong Kong is a fast track to poverty.
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Seriously guys, take everything you read on PPrune with a pinch of salt. There are good and bad things about Hong Kong, and if you can learn to adapt to the negatives then you may end up loving it.
Firstly, people like Dan Buster and Chinabeached are the last people in the world you should be listening to. These are seasoned 'old timers' that are so out of touch with the real world that their opinions are just beyond irrelevant. Unfortunately, these are the guys who joined in the golden era and feel entitled to insult anyone who joins on lesser contracts than them. However, it's still rather comical to find these 'seasoned veterans' sitting on their supposed gold mines whingeing away on PPrune day-in day-out...and it's because they have no one and nothing else to do with their life. Their third wife has already left them, they're feeling lower than low, and the only remedy to their loneliness is to come on PPrune and insult everyone. It's getting old...!
I'm not going to lie, Hong Kong is a difficult place to live and after spending 5 years here I am ready to leave. However, that's not to say it isn't for everyone as my reasons for wanting to flee are mostly non-financially related. I'm a year 2 FO at the other "dreadful airline" and all-in I get around $100,000HKD per month. I'm not too sure what the HKA package offers but I assume it's relatively comparable. I'm married, no kids and with tax at 15%, a decent flat (2-3 bedroom, 600-800sq') costing around $20-32K in rent, it's not all too bad. For me though, the most difficult aspects of life in Hong Kong is the daily living. For example: living in such close proximity to everyone else, having to deal with smells and noises you may not be used to, having to listen to the Chinese people hock, burp, fart, slurp almost everywhere is just intolerable. I miss the fact I can pick up a phone and get something sorted without having to go via three people, each as clueless as the other, just to hear "sorry cannot". The list goes on but I'm not going to bore you with it all. Basically, adapting to Chinese customs is something you need to be able to do...and that's easier said than done!
Regarding expenses, house prices are so expensive that I can almost guarantee it will be too expensive for you to buy into. A 4-bedroom house in Discovery Bay with a garden will cost around 30+ million (look here if you don't believe me: Buy & Rent Homes - Squarefoot - Hong Kong Apartments, Homes, Real Estate for Sale). Imported food is quadruple the price it is back home. Schooling is ridiculous with the better schools having limited spaces. Debentures have therefore gone through the roof and it will be out of your reach unless you're joining with already very deep pockets. I personally don't find bills too expensive with my gas, water and electric coming in at about $1,000 per month. Cable TV is rubbish but the internet is fast so a good VPN will give you access to all the stuff back home. If you chose to have a car, fueling it and finding a place to park will be your biggest issues as used cars are pretty cheap. The transport system is great though so you probably won't need a car unless you live on South Lantau or out in the New Territories.
If you plan on moving to HK with children then you really need to think hard about this, and I personally think Hong Kong may not be the right place for you. It will require a huge amount of sacrifice from yourself and your wife, which ultimately could lead to unnecessary strain on your marriage. However, if your current job has a whole host of other problems then it may be a no brainier for you.
At the end of the day, we're all adults here and you ultimately need to decided what's best for yourself and your family. If you're coming as a single guy to get a free type rating, some experience and then run, it may be a great deal. If you plan on having a future here, buying a house and raising a family, then I think it will be out of your reach on the current offerings.
Good luck to you all
Firstly, people like Dan Buster and Chinabeached are the last people in the world you should be listening to. These are seasoned 'old timers' that are so out of touch with the real world that their opinions are just beyond irrelevant. Unfortunately, these are the guys who joined in the golden era and feel entitled to insult anyone who joins on lesser contracts than them. However, it's still rather comical to find these 'seasoned veterans' sitting on their supposed gold mines whingeing away on PPrune day-in day-out...and it's because they have no one and nothing else to do with their life. Their third wife has already left them, they're feeling lower than low, and the only remedy to their loneliness is to come on PPrune and insult everyone. It's getting old...!
I'm not going to lie, Hong Kong is a difficult place to live and after spending 5 years here I am ready to leave. However, that's not to say it isn't for everyone as my reasons for wanting to flee are mostly non-financially related. I'm a year 2 FO at the other "dreadful airline" and all-in I get around $100,000HKD per month. I'm not too sure what the HKA package offers but I assume it's relatively comparable. I'm married, no kids and with tax at 15%, a decent flat (2-3 bedroom, 600-800sq') costing around $20-32K in rent, it's not all too bad. For me though, the most difficult aspects of life in Hong Kong is the daily living. For example: living in such close proximity to everyone else, having to deal with smells and noises you may not be used to, having to listen to the Chinese people hock, burp, fart, slurp almost everywhere is just intolerable. I miss the fact I can pick up a phone and get something sorted without having to go via three people, each as clueless as the other, just to hear "sorry cannot". The list goes on but I'm not going to bore you with it all. Basically, adapting to Chinese customs is something you need to be able to do...and that's easier said than done!
Regarding expenses, house prices are so expensive that I can almost guarantee it will be too expensive for you to buy into. A 4-bedroom house in Discovery Bay with a garden will cost around 30+ million (look here if you don't believe me: Buy & Rent Homes - Squarefoot - Hong Kong Apartments, Homes, Real Estate for Sale). Imported food is quadruple the price it is back home. Schooling is ridiculous with the better schools having limited spaces. Debentures have therefore gone through the roof and it will be out of your reach unless you're joining with already very deep pockets. I personally don't find bills too expensive with my gas, water and electric coming in at about $1,000 per month. Cable TV is rubbish but the internet is fast so a good VPN will give you access to all the stuff back home. If you chose to have a car, fueling it and finding a place to park will be your biggest issues as used cars are pretty cheap. The transport system is great though so you probably won't need a car unless you live on South Lantau or out in the New Territories.
If you plan on moving to HK with children then you really need to think hard about this, and I personally think Hong Kong may not be the right place for you. It will require a huge amount of sacrifice from yourself and your wife, which ultimately could lead to unnecessary strain on your marriage. However, if your current job has a whole host of other problems then it may be a no brainier for you.
At the end of the day, we're all adults here and you ultimately need to decided what's best for yourself and your family. If you're coming as a single guy to get a free type rating, some experience and then run, it may be a great deal. If you plan on having a future here, buying a house and raising a family, then I think it will be out of your reach on the current offerings.
Good luck to you all