Another degradation of our T&C
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They even call you "MR" on your G days when they call and offer you a flight. However, you can plainly see if "MR X" is cockpit crew and what rank, when they apply for the JS.
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...I stand corrected, you are of course correct about the way it displays on the request page. Still....after all the reductions to our staff travel benefits it is no wonder I thought the worst...!! 
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Are we merged now?
Oz2.
I agree with you on one point - the degradation continues. Now, the CX pilots have another degradation of their Benefits whilst KA pilots benefit. It's hardly rocket surgery why KA pilots are pleased with this eventuality. Someone mentioned an equitable arrangement. I can't begin to think how this is 'equitable'.( Why we're there no issues from CX Pilots regarding "equal Priority" with KA all these years?!)
Hot tip: the vast majority of CX pilots are none too pleased about this, just to put it incredibly mildly. My post may have been somewhat tongue in cheek, but please: DPS and PEN being on the KA route list hardly makes up for OZ, NZ, NA and all of EUR does it?? As for being elitist, ha. If that means wanting priority on your own airline for staff travel, then sure - I'm a regular Rockefeller.
Last time I checked, there had been no merger. This is a classic divide and conquer tactic from the Company, and now many CX pilots will struggle even more to get their own Airline's Staff travel flights with the recent two lots of policy changes.
As for working together as professional pilots, you absolutely have my support. If CX offered its pilots some of the KA travel fund, at KA's expense, you would damn well bet it wouldn't be acceptable to me nor the vast majority of CX pilots. It's not appropriate to rob Peter to pay Paul. That's all this is.
Don't try and kid yourself about it being more 'fair' and 'equitable'.
One final word of advice to the Pilots at KA, beware of Management 'Greeks bearing gifts'. Recent changes in CX staff travel have severely limited Pilots' ability to staff travel, and you may find trading away anything in your current Negs for this 'benefit' to be akin to selling the cow for some magic beans. CX cabin crew are now far more likely to "trump" you than you think.
I agree with you on one point - the degradation continues. Now, the CX pilots have another degradation of their Benefits whilst KA pilots benefit. It's hardly rocket surgery why KA pilots are pleased with this eventuality. Someone mentioned an equitable arrangement. I can't begin to think how this is 'equitable'.( Why we're there no issues from CX Pilots regarding "equal Priority" with KA all these years?!)
Hot tip: the vast majority of CX pilots are none too pleased about this, just to put it incredibly mildly. My post may have been somewhat tongue in cheek, but please: DPS and PEN being on the KA route list hardly makes up for OZ, NZ, NA and all of EUR does it?? As for being elitist, ha. If that means wanting priority on your own airline for staff travel, then sure - I'm a regular Rockefeller.
Last time I checked, there had been no merger. This is a classic divide and conquer tactic from the Company, and now many CX pilots will struggle even more to get their own Airline's Staff travel flights with the recent two lots of policy changes.
As for working together as professional pilots, you absolutely have my support. If CX offered its pilots some of the KA travel fund, at KA's expense, you would damn well bet it wouldn't be acceptable to me nor the vast majority of CX pilots. It's not appropriate to rob Peter to pay Paul. That's all this is.
Don't try and kid yourself about it being more 'fair' and 'equitable'.
One final word of advice to the Pilots at KA, beware of Management 'Greeks bearing gifts'. Recent changes in CX staff travel have severely limited Pilots' ability to staff travel, and you may find trading away anything in your current Negs for this 'benefit' to be akin to selling the cow for some magic beans. CX cabin crew are now far more likely to "trump" you than you think.
Last edited by superfrozo; 19th Apr 2014 at 15:14. Reason: speeling
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Australia2
You took a job at KA over CX because:
A) better housing straight off the bat at KA
B) No S/O bullsh*t to put up with
C) Left seat in 3 years
D) short patterns
E) travel allowance so you can buy full fare to get home
And having avoided the downsides that are a part of a career at CX you only feel it fair you should get CX staff travel too? You've got all that and you want more and you want to call others arrogant?
Mate we all work hard, we all end up in some ****ty hotel spending nights away from our family. And before you do the "we fly into China, we fly into China, we fly into China" that my KA mates keep telling me. Bless them. Yes you do fly into China but that's the job you took. It wasn't a Cairns-Brisbane shuttle that relocated to Hong Kong 5 yrs ago.......
Let's be honest, none of these changes cost the company a cent. This whole argument isn't about KA DOJ for staff travel, it's about future KA DOJ for CX bases isn't it?
You took a job at KA over CX because:
A) better housing straight off the bat at KA
B) No S/O bullsh*t to put up with
C) Left seat in 3 years
D) short patterns
E) travel allowance so you can buy full fare to get home
And having avoided the downsides that are a part of a career at CX you only feel it fair you should get CX staff travel too? You've got all that and you want more and you want to call others arrogant?
Mate we all work hard, we all end up in some ****ty hotel spending nights away from our family. And before you do the "we fly into China, we fly into China, we fly into China" that my KA mates keep telling me. Bless them. Yes you do fly into China but that's the job you took. It wasn't a Cairns-Brisbane shuttle that relocated to Hong Kong 5 yrs ago.......
Let's be honest, none of these changes cost the company a cent. This whole argument isn't about KA DOJ for staff travel, it's about future KA DOJ for CX bases isn't it?
Now, the CX pilots have another degradation of their Benefits whilst KA pilots benefit. It's hardly rocket surgery why KA pilots are pleased with this eventuality
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Dan
On the CX side of the road, we have been told nothing by the company nor the HKAOA.
To remove some of the speculation and mild hysteria developing in this thread, can you explain exactly what you have been offered?
I am also curious as to why you believe a lot of people won't sign up for it, what are the downsides?
Thanks.
To remove some of the speculation and mild hysteria developing in this thread, can you explain exactly what you have been offered?
I am also curious as to why you believe a lot of people won't sign up for it, what are the downsides?
Thanks.
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I am extremely disappointed the way this news is being received on this forum.
Back in 2008 all KA non flying staff were integrated into CX. We are talking a lot of people. All were given CX staff priority based on their DOJ with KA. There was not one whisper of protest from any pilots at CX.
The only KA people excluded from this were the flying staff.
Now after all these years of getting bumped by 19 year old office staff, CX has decided to address this anomaly and include us as part of the company. Amazingly the one group that is most vocal in raising opposition to this is our fellow pilots at CX.
There are less than 500 pilots at KA. at least half of them were hired after CX bought KA and as such have always been paid and worked for the CX group.
KA has been part of the CX " one team one dream" for 7 years now but only when it suits it seems.
As far as KA's destinations go the vast majority of jump seat requests I get are from CX employees ( admittedly there aren't many left at KA now). It may surprise you guys but there are a large amount of Chinese who work for CX who actually do want to travel to China. I'm sure they will appreciate the boost in their boarding priority. As well as the CX commuters from Phuket who are always after a JS. Plus the many CX cabin crew from Korea , Japan, Taiwan, Philippines India etc. KA is a regional airline and believe it or not most CX employees are from " the region" not everyone want to go to LA, London or Sydney.
As far as what's been offered. The barriers between the two airlines will be removed. Priority 25 on either carrier based on DOJ. FOCs on either carrier. ID 90 on freight ( we had this before but lost it when all our freighters went to CX).
Some of the down side is we lose the cost of an ID 50 from our travel fund. The big one though is KA recognizes common law spouses where as CX don't. This deal not only does not recognize CLS for staff travel But also takes away the medical benefit for the CLS they currently enjoy. Many of the guys with CLS have said they won't be signing over to the scheme as it's too big a financial hit for them. Many other guys are unwilling to give up the cash from their travel fund and would rather stay where they are and buy a full fare with the cash they saved.
Not sure what the take up rate will be. If you're married on a local contract then it's a no cost item and the take up will be 100% from that group. If you're an expat or have a CLS ( or both) then there is a financial hit. Each individual will have to weigh it up if it's worth it. Some will some won't.
Back in 2008 all KA non flying staff were integrated into CX. We are talking a lot of people. All were given CX staff priority based on their DOJ with KA. There was not one whisper of protest from any pilots at CX.
The only KA people excluded from this were the flying staff.
Now after all these years of getting bumped by 19 year old office staff, CX has decided to address this anomaly and include us as part of the company. Amazingly the one group that is most vocal in raising opposition to this is our fellow pilots at CX.
There are less than 500 pilots at KA. at least half of them were hired after CX bought KA and as such have always been paid and worked for the CX group.
KA has been part of the CX " one team one dream" for 7 years now but only when it suits it seems.
As far as KA's destinations go the vast majority of jump seat requests I get are from CX employees ( admittedly there aren't many left at KA now). It may surprise you guys but there are a large amount of Chinese who work for CX who actually do want to travel to China. I'm sure they will appreciate the boost in their boarding priority. As well as the CX commuters from Phuket who are always after a JS. Plus the many CX cabin crew from Korea , Japan, Taiwan, Philippines India etc. KA is a regional airline and believe it or not most CX employees are from " the region" not everyone want to go to LA, London or Sydney.
As far as what's been offered. The barriers between the two airlines will be removed. Priority 25 on either carrier based on DOJ. FOCs on either carrier. ID 90 on freight ( we had this before but lost it when all our freighters went to CX).
Some of the down side is we lose the cost of an ID 50 from our travel fund. The big one though is KA recognizes common law spouses where as CX don't. This deal not only does not recognize CLS for staff travel But also takes away the medical benefit for the CLS they currently enjoy. Many of the guys with CLS have said they won't be signing over to the scheme as it's too big a financial hit for them. Many other guys are unwilling to give up the cash from their travel fund and would rather stay where they are and buy a full fare with the cash they saved.
Not sure what the take up rate will be. If you're married on a local contract then it's a no cost item and the take up will be 100% from that group. If you're an expat or have a CLS ( or both) then there is a financial hit. Each individual will have to weigh it up if it's worth it. Some will some won't.
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Two tigers and Giggerty
Thanks for the sane replies.
Is this "deal" part of a wider deal on Pay and T&Cs or just limited to a trade off between Staff Travel priority and a portion of Travel Fund and benefits for CLS's.
Ps How do you prove someone is your CLS as opposed to a "special friend"?
Is this "deal" part of a wider deal on Pay and T&Cs or just limited to a trade off between Staff Travel priority and a portion of Travel Fund and benefits for CLS's.
Ps How do you prove someone is your CLS as opposed to a "special friend"?
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Liam
That's a bit of a contentious issue at the moment.
The DPA have concluded pay negotiations with the company. Predictably it has come out at the lower end of expectations. It's a three year deal of 3% / 2% /2% combined with a rise in FDP. Can't remember the exact figures but it's ends up being a 75% increase over 3 years. So it works out around 4 ish % per year if you work your standard 110 hours a month.
The company wants a COS change for this. They want to stop new joiners swapping fleets within the first 2 years of starting. Unlike CX we can swap fleets every two years but no such restriction applies to a new joiner.
We have a meeting on the 30 th to vote yes or no on this.
The conspiracy theory is that we were offered the staff travel deal to placate us for the low wage offer and COS change.
My personal opinion is that the deals aren't related. Both have pros and cons. The pay deal is not guaranteed of getting through. There is plenty of debate for and against. Plus as I said before not all want to take up the staff travel offer.
As to saying your CLS is a special friend. The staff travel deal allows a single crew to have a travel companion, but there are the normal restrictions with that plus they still lose the medical.
That's a bit of a contentious issue at the moment.
The DPA have concluded pay negotiations with the company. Predictably it has come out at the lower end of expectations. It's a three year deal of 3% / 2% /2% combined with a rise in FDP. Can't remember the exact figures but it's ends up being a 75% increase over 3 years. So it works out around 4 ish % per year if you work your standard 110 hours a month.
The company wants a COS change for this. They want to stop new joiners swapping fleets within the first 2 years of starting. Unlike CX we can swap fleets every two years but no such restriction applies to a new joiner.
We have a meeting on the 30 th to vote yes or no on this.
The conspiracy theory is that we were offered the staff travel deal to placate us for the low wage offer and COS change.
My personal opinion is that the deals aren't related. Both have pros and cons. The pay deal is not guaranteed of getting through. There is plenty of debate for and against. Plus as I said before not all want to take up the staff travel offer.
As to saying your CLS is a special friend. The staff travel deal allows a single crew to have a travel companion, but there are the normal restrictions with that plus they still lose the medical.
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Sorry, missed the common law spouse special friend bit.
In most western countries to prove you have a CLS you need to prove you live together and share finances. A joint bank account is a good start. Having kids will clinch it. This gives your CLS all the same rights a normal spouse, even in the case of divorce/ separation.
KA recognized this about 15 years ago or more. However neither the HK government or CX have entered the modern world and recognized the rights of a CLS. Unfortunately CX has chosen to take a backward step here and not take the opportunity to recognize CLS's like modern countries and companies do. It's the cheaper option not to.
Unfortunately those with a CLS are not only battling the company but the Government as well. It will be a long struggle I think
In most western countries to prove you have a CLS you need to prove you live together and share finances. A joint bank account is a good start. Having kids will clinch it. This gives your CLS all the same rights a normal spouse, even in the case of divorce/ separation.
KA recognized this about 15 years ago or more. However neither the HK government or CX have entered the modern world and recognized the rights of a CLS. Unfortunately CX has chosen to take a backward step here and not take the opportunity to recognize CLS's like modern countries and companies do. It's the cheaper option not to.
Unfortunately those with a CLS are not only battling the company but the Government as well. It will be a long struggle I think
Last edited by giggerty; 21st Apr 2014 at 15:34. Reason: Needed to add a bit
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Most KA *guys will be paying for the privilege of DOJ staff travel. The I'd 50 is worth around on average $10 k , and it's upto the individual wether they can justify that giveaway every year for a better priority and some extra bookable J class FOC on CX.
Personally I'd be happy to pay twice this to get my 20 years seniority recognized for KA DOJ staff travel. The arrogance of those CX white shirts on the bus from the p,aza after a few B scale beers has been a thorn in my crotch for many years. Now I can pick a flight with a few listed CX guys, with 19 years of service n say see ya in economy Loosers !*
Ah let's not get spiteful. It's the Devine right of all CX pilots from the day they walk out with their shiney one bar to take command of their widebody, from that cockpit middle seat .Complete with FCOMs and With their wobbly legs and stomach all butterflies. But hey the bravado on their return after spending a very rewarding trip to Paris or Amsterdam, alone in their rooms scratching their ball$, You are welcome to than. And I'm not even voting for the KA payrise. That's baloney . But bet CX get similar offer. 3/2/2 wow I'm loving it.*
And let's not forget the 1900 cabin crew who will get DOJ too. Welcome aboard !*
Personally I'd be happy to pay twice this to get my 20 years seniority recognized for KA DOJ staff travel. The arrogance of those CX white shirts on the bus from the p,aza after a few B scale beers has been a thorn in my crotch for many years. Now I can pick a flight with a few listed CX guys, with 19 years of service n say see ya in economy Loosers !*
Ah let's not get spiteful. It's the Devine right of all CX pilots from the day they walk out with their shiney one bar to take command of their widebody, from that cockpit middle seat .Complete with FCOMs and With their wobbly legs and stomach all butterflies. But hey the bravado on their return after spending a very rewarding trip to Paris or Amsterdam, alone in their rooms scratching their ball$, You are welcome to than. And I'm not even voting for the KA payrise. That's baloney . But bet CX get similar offer. 3/2/2 wow I'm loving it.*
And let's not forget the 1900 cabin crew who will get DOJ too. Welcome aboard !*
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Giggerty
Thanks for the explanation. In terms of HK, KA's acceptance of CLS for the past 15 years was quite progessive. HK is still very conservative (with a small 'c')
Final questions- honest. Is the Staff Travel Deal separate to the Pay Deal? Would I be correct in assuming the Pay Deal is a DPA negotiated deal and it is before the DPA membership now to vote to accept or reject by the end of the month. I assume the Staff Travel deal is a separate deal and is down to the individual to accept or reject and once you accept, you can't go back.... Presumably, individuals have to accept by a certain date.
For the cabin crew or locally employed pilots I assume it's a similar choice, get DOJ but sacrifice CLS. I guess they don't have a travel fund, so the choice is more defined.
If my assumptions are correct, what's the date for acceptance of the Staff Travel deal?
Final questions- honest. Is the Staff Travel Deal separate to the Pay Deal? Would I be correct in assuming the Pay Deal is a DPA negotiated deal and it is before the DPA membership now to vote to accept or reject by the end of the month. I assume the Staff Travel deal is a separate deal and is down to the individual to accept or reject and once you accept, you can't go back.... Presumably, individuals have to accept by a certain date.
For the cabin crew or locally employed pilots I assume it's a similar choice, get DOJ but sacrifice CLS. I guess they don't have a travel fund, so the choice is more defined.
If my assumptions are correct, what's the date for acceptance of the Staff Travel deal?
trev
You Bloody Idiot. Belt up. Don't inflame the boy Captains on either side.
But really, what of the demographics of all this? Won't it benefit CX employees? Regional flying is going the way of KA according to scuttlebutt- Maldives and somewhere else next according to rumor.
Of our 500 pilots, only 150 at most are significantly beyond the ten year mark in seniority. Our cabin crew retire at 45 and the target employment for the last 10 years has been a group that don't travel terribly exotically- OK perhaps shopping trips to Tokyo but mostly they like Taiwan.
So CX employees over 10 years seniority are going to have priority access to a rapidly building regional network- some of it over their own routes. Well thought out from over the road I'd guess!
You Bloody Idiot. Belt up. Don't inflame the boy Captains on either side.
But really, what of the demographics of all this? Won't it benefit CX employees? Regional flying is going the way of KA according to scuttlebutt- Maldives and somewhere else next according to rumor.
Of our 500 pilots, only 150 at most are significantly beyond the ten year mark in seniority. Our cabin crew retire at 45 and the target employment for the last 10 years has been a group that don't travel terribly exotically- OK perhaps shopping trips to Tokyo but mostly they like Taiwan.
So CX employees over 10 years seniority are going to have priority access to a rapidly building regional network- some of it over their own routes. Well thought out from over the road I'd guess!
Last edited by Gnadenburg; 22nd Apr 2014 at 10:49.
Well thought out from over the road I'd guess!