Thanks ...
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CX had a unique opportunity to cement good relations with their pilots some time ago by accepting local recruits, training them to proficiency, thereby creating rapport with the locals in HKG.
Management tried this for awhile, trained local guys, but apparently they were not liked by the expats in the training department because several left the company, hounded out no doubt by those who wanted to keep it an "'ole boys club", expats only. How do I know? Because I have flown (in another company) with one or two of these local guys, and their stories are the same and confirmed by several other retired CX guys. Failure of management to back these local guys up together with the "'ole boys club" to keep it that way has fostered absolutely no support for the HKAOA "action" in the local media. The AOA is seen for what it is....a group that only wants more, never mind the realities of the present economic climate.
The seeds of discontent were sown a long time ago.
Management tried this for awhile, trained local guys, but apparently they were not liked by the expats in the training department because several left the company, hounded out no doubt by those who wanted to keep it an "'ole boys club", expats only. How do I know? Because I have flown (in another company) with one or two of these local guys, and their stories are the same and confirmed by several other retired CX guys. Failure of management to back these local guys up together with the "'ole boys club" to keep it that way has fostered absolutely no support for the HKAOA "action" in the local media. The AOA is seen for what it is....a group that only wants more, never mind the realities of the present economic climate.
The seeds of discontent were sown a long time ago.
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Your a LYING **** 411A
Tell me right now which airline you flew with where there were local pilots that were hounded out of CX.
I bet you wont because it will expose you as the lying **** that you are.
No local pilots have ever been hounded out of CX, quite the opposite!!!!!
Just **** off you shi! stiring old *****
It must of really hurt you when Cathay rejected you
BTW have a go at this heartless ******'s comment on the Middle east forum RE: Gulf air 320 crash.
HUSTLER
(you might try moderating your own language ! On this occaision I have saved you the trouble)
Tell me right now which airline you flew with where there were local pilots that were hounded out of CX.
I bet you wont because it will expose you as the lying **** that you are.
No local pilots have ever been hounded out of CX, quite the opposite!!!!!
Just **** off you shi! stiring old *****
It must of really hurt you when Cathay rejected you
BTW have a go at this heartless ******'s comment on the Middle east forum RE: Gulf air 320 crash.
HUSTLER
(you might try moderating your own language ! On this occaision I have saved you the trouble)
Last edited by Jetdriver; 29th Apr 2002 at 17:58.
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Well then HUSTLER, the airline was AirAtlanta Icelandic, and one of these fellows (a superb pilot) has moved on to Dragon Air, and the feedback I get is that the atmosphere there is rather more local friendly.
Truth hurts just a bit, yes? And, I never applied to CX.
Next Question? OVER
Truth hurts just a bit, yes? And, I never applied to CX.
Next Question? OVER
Last edited by 411A; 29th Apr 2002 at 17:48.
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Well hello there 41 "eye" A, you must a second cousin of 4 eye eye A that was on the forum some time ago.
Sorry 1-stripper, the rules say no names...but think back to about 1995...you should be able to figure it out.
As I mentioned before, the AOA cannot turn the clock back. Yes indeed the CX crews of yesteryear had a very sweet deal....but the operative word is....HAD. Also suspect that the company management will not accept any more nonsence from the "association"...hard times ahead guys. Even the California courts gave you a cold shoulder.
Can't you'all take a hint? And as for the UN.......
Sorry 1-stripper, the rules say no names...but think back to about 1995...you should be able to figure it out.
As I mentioned before, the AOA cannot turn the clock back. Yes indeed the CX crews of yesteryear had a very sweet deal....but the operative word is....HAD. Also suspect that the company management will not accept any more nonsence from the "association"...hard times ahead guys. Even the California courts gave you a cold shoulder.
Can't you'all take a hint? And as for the UN.......
Goondi,
I'm sorry we have to converse in between rants from that tosser 411a.
Please believe I have the utmost sympathy for your position and DO NOT think you or your mates deserved your sackings. They were totaly motivated by power mongering on the part of Cathay management. My problem with the ban is it is using less financailly able, less qualified pilots as sacrificial lambs in your dispute.
To answer your queries:-
1. IFALPA instigated the ban on your behalf at your request.
2. Obviously you are fairly senior or you would have corrected me, but even someone with 2 years at Cathay is in a better position than someone with 5 years flying a 206 out of Kunanurra
3. Anyone who joins under the ban has been quite overtly threatened with a Scab title and ostricisation. Read your own last comment. If that's not a threat, I don't know what is.
4. See my opening comments. You got screwed. It's a discrace. But is it right to use the careers of people you've never met as weapons in your fight?
5. I doubt that you can't find another job because you're a 49er. There are thousands of pilots out of work. You are in the same position you want to put Cathay aspirants in, just another pilot in a tough job market. If you are offered another job, and a ban is put on your accepting it, how will you feel?
6. It is arogant in the extreme to lecture others as to what is or isn't moral. Have patients? Easy for you to say, as your association is paying you. Will you in turn lend financial support to an out of work pilot who throws away their chance to work for Cathay? I doubt it.
7. "Management don't like it". Well that's all right them. Guys will have a rosy inner glow about that while their house gets re-possessed.
I consider the ban immoral. Why not take direct industrial action against Cathay? Because you may suffer consequences. Solution, have others fight the battles for you.
Not the action of honourable professtionals
Edited because I can't spell
I'm sorry we have to converse in between rants from that tosser 411a.
Please believe I have the utmost sympathy for your position and DO NOT think you or your mates deserved your sackings. They were totaly motivated by power mongering on the part of Cathay management. My problem with the ban is it is using less financailly able, less qualified pilots as sacrificial lambs in your dispute.
To answer your queries:-
1. IFALPA instigated the ban on your behalf at your request.
2. Obviously you are fairly senior or you would have corrected me, but even someone with 2 years at Cathay is in a better position than someone with 5 years flying a 206 out of Kunanurra
3. Anyone who joins under the ban has been quite overtly threatened with a Scab title and ostricisation. Read your own last comment. If that's not a threat, I don't know what is.
4. See my opening comments. You got screwed. It's a discrace. But is it right to use the careers of people you've never met as weapons in your fight?
5. I doubt that you can't find another job because you're a 49er. There are thousands of pilots out of work. You are in the same position you want to put Cathay aspirants in, just another pilot in a tough job market. If you are offered another job, and a ban is put on your accepting it, how will you feel?
6. It is arogant in the extreme to lecture others as to what is or isn't moral. Have patients? Easy for you to say, as your association is paying you. Will you in turn lend financial support to an out of work pilot who throws away their chance to work for Cathay? I doubt it.
7. "Management don't like it". Well that's all right them. Guys will have a rosy inner glow about that while their house gets re-possessed.
I consider the ban immoral. Why not take direct industrial action against Cathay? Because you may suffer consequences. Solution, have others fight the battles for you.
Not the action of honourable professtionals
Edited because I can't spell
Last edited by Wizofoz; 30th Apr 2002 at 06:13.
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Good gosh, it's 41 eye A...again.
Generally find that those that shout the loudest...have something nasty to hide.
Could this be....you?
As I said before, the seeds of discontent were sown a long time ago.
Thanks for proving my point.
Generally find that those that shout the loudest...have something nasty to hide.
Could this be....you?
As I said before, the seeds of discontent were sown a long time ago.
Thanks for proving my point.
um....411A dear chap. Have watched your contributions with some merriment for a while now. May I suggest your criticisms of others as illinformend are as relevant to your good self?
First of all you criticised the AoA "Come to think of it, that's all the AOA has...dreams"...forgive me for not being fully up with your movements, but weren't you going to set up some big Tristar operation ex HKG. How's that going?
Your comments re CX being an old boys club are wrong. Trust me on this, they are trying desparately to recruit locals but the candidates just aren't there. They would love to crew their fleet with locals but very few individuals in Hong Kong (locals) are interested in lowly paid jobs such as aircrew. Stockbroking, Medicine yes indeed but flying is not an interest generally. Another big problem is the disruption to family life - a big negative for the locals. The locals that are in CX are great guys/gals and it would be nice to have more but the proble is categorically supply-based, so you are way off the mark.
Finally, Dragon Air are in essence the same as CX. Different (lower) payscales than even CX B-Scale, moderately better morale but rotten destinations. Similar problems with trying to recruit locally. Locals within the airline are great but even fewer want to fly for Dragon when they could chose the 'heavy metal at Cathay.
So all in all, I would have to say sir, your frequent posts contain nearly all of the errors you so venomously attack others for. It is a little hard to take you very seriously.
============
PS: I don't work for Cathay, I'm not a member of the AoA and I ain't one of your loathed goddamned Limeys that seem to cause you so much angst
First of all you criticised the AoA "Come to think of it, that's all the AOA has...dreams"...forgive me for not being fully up with your movements, but weren't you going to set up some big Tristar operation ex HKG. How's that going?
Your comments re CX being an old boys club are wrong. Trust me on this, they are trying desparately to recruit locals but the candidates just aren't there. They would love to crew their fleet with locals but very few individuals in Hong Kong (locals) are interested in lowly paid jobs such as aircrew. Stockbroking, Medicine yes indeed but flying is not an interest generally. Another big problem is the disruption to family life - a big negative for the locals. The locals that are in CX are great guys/gals and it would be nice to have more but the proble is categorically supply-based, so you are way off the mark.
Finally, Dragon Air are in essence the same as CX. Different (lower) payscales than even CX B-Scale, moderately better morale but rotten destinations. Similar problems with trying to recruit locally. Locals within the airline are great but even fewer want to fly for Dragon when they could chose the 'heavy metal at Cathay.
So all in all, I would have to say sir, your frequent posts contain nearly all of the errors you so venomously attack others for. It is a little hard to take you very seriously.
============
PS: I don't work for Cathay, I'm not a member of the AoA and I ain't one of your loathed goddamned Limeys that seem to cause you so much angst
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Wizofoz
My final comments on this thread.
1. When you are in a Union and your management does this to you, you'll be glad that IFALPA can instigate this ban for you. I hope that you never need its services.
2. What's wrong with making it 5 and 1/2 years at Kununurra and then taking the job. At least they do have a job. Yes, I am being supported by my Union. But by God I'd trade places with the guys that are paying their dues any day, if for no other reason than pride.
3. Being ostracised is a fact not a threat. I considered joining Ansett in '89 until I realised that it would a) be wrong and b) I would have been ostracised. I knew the score. I made my decision. No threats there, were there? I did not feel threatened.
4. I wish I could give you the info re why I can't get a job and by whom I've been blackbanned. I'm keeping my powder dry. But please accept the fact that I've tried and been not just refused but totally ignored. I do have some leads but to tell you would give away my identity; sorry.
5. I'm sorry if you feel I'm being arrogant and that I'm lecturing. Don't pay me any attention if you think that! I know what I consider right and wrong. You in turn have your own values. I can look at myself in the mirror in the morning and see no hypocrisy, nor reason to feel guilty at my actions. I have a conscience. It is clear. If you can do the same, then that is all well and good. I doubt that the people that broke the ban are so able. If they are, I do not wish to ever know them.
6. I don't think anyone who says "no" now is throwing away their chance. I believe it'll come back. When it does, the company they join will be a much better one than the one they would have joined if the ban had not occurred. I regard their delay as an investment in a better and more secure future. That too is what I am striving for. Don't think for a minute that I would not love to be in a position to support my fellow 49ers. However, I'm not sure that I would feel any compunction to support someone already in a job that is considering becoming a replacemnet worker at my colleagues' expense. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
7. You missed the point about management not liking it. The fact that they don't like the ban means that the tactic is having the desired effect. That does give me a rosy glow even though it's me that's having my house repossessed.
8. Finally, as for Direct Action. If you only knew who I was you'd know that I stood up several times at Union meetings and Focus nights and advocated strike action. I would have put my money where my mouth is. Unfortunately, I got knocked out of the ring in the first round. I'm sorry to keep on about consciences but mine is absolutely clear on this one. I would have gone on strike for this dispute and have paid the ultimate price anyway.
9. I am very conscious of the demands that I ask of others when I request thier assistance in this fight. Believe me, I'd like not to have to ask. One day though I'll repay the favour with interest.
My final comments on this thread.
1. When you are in a Union and your management does this to you, you'll be glad that IFALPA can instigate this ban for you. I hope that you never need its services.
2. What's wrong with making it 5 and 1/2 years at Kununurra and then taking the job. At least they do have a job. Yes, I am being supported by my Union. But by God I'd trade places with the guys that are paying their dues any day, if for no other reason than pride.
3. Being ostracised is a fact not a threat. I considered joining Ansett in '89 until I realised that it would a) be wrong and b) I would have been ostracised. I knew the score. I made my decision. No threats there, were there? I did not feel threatened.
4. I wish I could give you the info re why I can't get a job and by whom I've been blackbanned. I'm keeping my powder dry. But please accept the fact that I've tried and been not just refused but totally ignored. I do have some leads but to tell you would give away my identity; sorry.
5. I'm sorry if you feel I'm being arrogant and that I'm lecturing. Don't pay me any attention if you think that! I know what I consider right and wrong. You in turn have your own values. I can look at myself in the mirror in the morning and see no hypocrisy, nor reason to feel guilty at my actions. I have a conscience. It is clear. If you can do the same, then that is all well and good. I doubt that the people that broke the ban are so able. If they are, I do not wish to ever know them.
6. I don't think anyone who says "no" now is throwing away their chance. I believe it'll come back. When it does, the company they join will be a much better one than the one they would have joined if the ban had not occurred. I regard their delay as an investment in a better and more secure future. That too is what I am striving for. Don't think for a minute that I would not love to be in a position to support my fellow 49ers. However, I'm not sure that I would feel any compunction to support someone already in a job that is considering becoming a replacemnet worker at my colleagues' expense. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
7. You missed the point about management not liking it. The fact that they don't like the ban means that the tactic is having the desired effect. That does give me a rosy glow even though it's me that's having my house repossessed.
8. Finally, as for Direct Action. If you only knew who I was you'd know that I stood up several times at Union meetings and Focus nights and advocated strike action. I would have put my money where my mouth is. Unfortunately, I got knocked out of the ring in the first round. I'm sorry to keep on about consciences but mine is absolutely clear on this one. I would have gone on strike for this dispute and have paid the ultimate price anyway.
9. I am very conscious of the demands that I ask of others when I request thier assistance in this fight. Believe me, I'd like not to have to ask. One day though I'll repay the favour with interest.
Goondi,
Let me stress that I have the utmost repect for you and sympathy for your position.
Both you and Saint Paul Island have stated a belief that pilots who turn Cathay down now will be employed in the future.When pressed SPI retreated from that position and has been silent on the issue ever since.
To my mind the only way you could justify the ban is if you gave a concrete assurance that anyone who knocks Cathay back will be treated in the same way as a 49er, e.g the ban will only be lifted if they are employed along side the guys that were sacked.That is the only way you can "pay them back with interest".
If you recieve your job back because of the sacrifice of others, and then do not do at least as much for them, I would hope that look in the mirror gets just a little difficult.
Let me stress that I have the utmost repect for you and sympathy for your position.
Both you and Saint Paul Island have stated a belief that pilots who turn Cathay down now will be employed in the future.When pressed SPI retreated from that position and has been silent on the issue ever since.
To my mind the only way you could justify the ban is if you gave a concrete assurance that anyone who knocks Cathay back will be treated in the same way as a 49er, e.g the ban will only be lifted if they are employed along side the guys that were sacked.That is the only way you can "pay them back with interest".
If you recieve your job back because of the sacrifice of others, and then do not do at least as much for them, I would hope that look in the mirror gets just a little difficult.
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No dog in this fight!!!
But I would doubt that CP would hire people who turned them down due to the ban, unless there were no other suitable candidates. CP management sounds rather vindictive and this would be right up their alley.
Sounds like the ban is slowly having an effect. However, I still wonder about the people who upgraded and why there has been no strike. Yes, I am aware of the laws in HK, well some of them at least through reading them here, but if all the pilots walked out, CP would be hard pressed to find anyone to operate and doubt they could afford to fire all.
I do so strongly hope, that the union will stand up for those, who turns the opportunity down now and by that shows solidarity. How the union can know who these people are, I do not know, but suffice to say, they make a big sacrifice and quite possibly, with the way the market is right now, will lose their opportunity to pilots with lesser morals.
Best of luck to all involved!!
D8
But I would doubt that CP would hire people who turned them down due to the ban, unless there were no other suitable candidates. CP management sounds rather vindictive and this would be right up their alley.
Sounds like the ban is slowly having an effect. However, I still wonder about the people who upgraded and why there has been no strike. Yes, I am aware of the laws in HK, well some of them at least through reading them here, but if all the pilots walked out, CP would be hard pressed to find anyone to operate and doubt they could afford to fire all.
I do so strongly hope, that the union will stand up for those, who turns the opportunity down now and by that shows solidarity. How the union can know who these people are, I do not know, but suffice to say, they make a big sacrifice and quite possibly, with the way the market is right now, will lose their opportunity to pilots with lesser morals.
Best of luck to all involved!!
D8
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Well Al E. Vator, our operation will not be in HKG, but located 570nm SE, HKG will be used for heavy letter checks only. And not a large operation either, small and friendly, with NO "union" problems.
You could be right of course about the lack of local recruits. SQ found this same problem, but solved same by going to Malaysia for many of their pilots. Wonder why CX did not do the same as there were quite a few very good candidates there....I should know as I trained many at SQ on the 707. Some very talanted guys, especially directly onto the 707, not an easy thing for a pilot with only 270 hours of light aircraft experience, as many of the locals had. But then SQ had a rather large training budget at the time....surely CX could have done the same.
You could be right of course about the lack of local recruits. SQ found this same problem, but solved same by going to Malaysia for many of their pilots. Wonder why CX did not do the same as there were quite a few very good candidates there....I should know as I trained many at SQ on the 707. Some very talanted guys, especially directly onto the 707, not an easy thing for a pilot with only 270 hours of light aircraft experience, as many of the locals had. But then SQ had a rather large training budget at the time....surely CX could have done the same.
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you tired old Spanish Athlete...
Say it...PHILIPPINES
I might have to eat my fedora if you ever get an aircraft up, odds against 200:1
You say you were in SQ 25 years ago. Personally, I have my doubts. Whatever the case, it's time to move on, old man. Things have changed. Stop living in the past (or whatever dimension you're in) ...and leave your paranoia behind.
Say it...PHILIPPINES
I might have to eat my fedora if you ever get an aircraft up, odds against 200:1
You say you were in SQ 25 years ago. Personally, I have my doubts. Whatever the case, it's time to move on, old man. Things have changed. Stop living in the past (or whatever dimension you're in) ...and leave your paranoia behind.
411a,
As your incesant BS makes this forum a joke and makes intelligent debate difficult, I'll do you a deal... PUT UP OR SHUT UP!!!
Give us a time limit by which your state-of-the-art L1011 airline will be operating, and agree that if it is not up by that time you will STOP USING THIS SERVICE.
I wish you would realise that your stupid comments do nothing but weaken the side of any debate you claim to be on.
As your incesant BS makes this forum a joke and makes intelligent debate difficult, I'll do you a deal... PUT UP OR SHUT UP!!!
Give us a time limit by which your state-of-the-art L1011 airline will be operating, and agree that if it is not up by that time you will STOP USING THIS SERVICE.
I wish you would realise that your stupid comments do nothing but weaken the side of any debate you claim to be on.
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Wizofoz--
You may consider my comments inappropriate...but I certainly do not. I have been around a long time in aviation....and find that the CX guys are living in the past....expecting the same perks that many of them enjoyed many years ago. But times change....but their thought process apparently does not...to bad for them.
Have been informed that our financing was approved today...so expect ops to start shortly...many things to do so cannot give an exact date. It will depend very much on the maintenance state of the aeroplanes...and not limited to the L10 either.
Will be in HKG in June...usually stay at the Excelsior....come around and have a beer and I will fill you in....if you're interested.
You may consider my comments inappropriate...but I certainly do not. I have been around a long time in aviation....and find that the CX guys are living in the past....expecting the same perks that many of them enjoyed many years ago. But times change....but their thought process apparently does not...to bad for them.
Have been informed that our financing was approved today...so expect ops to start shortly...many things to do so cannot give an exact date. It will depend very much on the maintenance state of the aeroplanes...and not limited to the L10 either.
Will be in HKG in June...usually stay at the Excelsior....come around and have a beer and I will fill you in....if you're interested.
411a,
I don't live in Honkers and won't be there in June, but I'll monitor your progress with baited breath!!
What's the name of your outfit?
I don't live in Honkers and won't be there in June, but I'll monitor your progress with baited breath!!
What's the name of your outfit?