Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.


Old 1st Mar 2012, 06:24
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Nirvana
Posts: 473
Iron Skillet, thanks for that reference. Yes, that certainly is interesting reading and I agree that it might be just that, the placebo effect. What's the answer; don't do shift work, fly long haul, or stress to much. In these modern times it is harder to avoid and certainly with the demand on schedules it's not likely to change.

It really is indicative of our business and I hazard to guess they are going to want more productivity but will not balance that with the detrimental physiological effects of Long Haul/Back of the Clock Flying.

In order to cope, people will use strategies like sleeping tablets, melatonin and even the magnetic bracelet, if that helps them. All about treating the symptoms and not the cause, unfortunately.
Bob Hawke is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2012, 10:42
  #22 (permalink)  
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,066
Conclusions There is no evidence that melatonin is effective in treating secondary sleep disorders or sleep disorders accompanying sleep restriction, such as jet lag and shiftwork disorder.
As I discovered, and beware what it says on the box too, if it says '5mg' is it 5mg of Melatonin per a tablet, or, with additives, a 5mg, (or 3mg) tablet?

And we should remember that there is nothing on God's earth that is worth giving up, (including sleeping tablets!), for the sake of an extra four years in a nursing home.
parabellum is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2012, 12:26
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 38
Sorry everyone for the slight thread drift, but Skillet I simply can't resist. Your comment "But if you conduct a properly-designed scientific study and let the results speak for themselves, and keep building on that with more properly-derived evidence, then you have yourself a reliable conclusion." makes me laugh just a little.

Properly designed scientific studies unambiguously show that life only comes from life, but obviously this 'scientific' evidence can't be right can it?

Once again sorry to everyone else, for the record I don't think any sleeping medication is a good idea but only being an SO I acknowledge I probably have yet to see the worst of the rosters.
Gigaboomer is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2012, 14:56
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Up in the air
Age: 54
Posts: 195
I sometimes use Zopiclon, however I do feel the side effects like slight drowsiness the next day. I still think it is madness to drug oneself just to be able to work the next day, hurray capitalism...
711 is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2012, 18:32
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: home
Posts: 31

I also had CX induced sleep problems. I never took anything till 2 months ago.
On a freighter trip I flew with a captain and he used to have sleep problems.
He is taking stuff from Germany, Minerals/Vitamins which work on a cellular level.
this guy was nice enough to give me some of this stuff to try.
Lots of pro sporters in Germany use it.
Basically, you take a power cocktail in morning, just mix it in water. Before you go to bed you take restorate, again in water.
So during day, more energy, at night, rest!

My sleep patern went from, 2-3hours, piss, awake, 2-3 hours, piss etc...
After taking this stuff I now sleep 8 hours straight, have more energy, basically
A game changer for me!
Downside it's expensive, but for me it's worth it.
I use powercocktail and restorate.

FitLine - Experience Results.

Sleep well!
shimmydamper is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2012, 21:27
  #26 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 155
Properly designed scientific studies unambiguously show that life only comes from life, but obviously this 'scientific' evidence can't be right can it?
Yet again you demonstrate a complete misunderstanding of the scientific method.

(trying hard not to hijack this thread into another pointless fantasy friend in the sky discussion.....)
joebanana is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2012, 23:08
  #27 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cupboard
Posts: 264
Giga, when you Google the things you read to come to your evidence-ignoring conclusions, I think you could at least find out whether they are reliable scientific sources or immediately dismiss the ones that are not (as well as those purporting to be, specially those by junk scientists pretending to be scientists).

In the meantime, try to keep up with the latest in laboratory experiments that demonstrate the ability of self-replicating nucleotides occurring under natural conditions.
Iron Skillet is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2012, 23:56
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: No where
Posts: 1
Iron....please buddy....let it go. You don't believe, we do. Enough said. Science has never been able to 'create' life. Until you manage that, you really don't have an answer as to how it came about. Also, perhaps you can explain the recent quote of your 'god'....Richard Dawkins: 'I can't prove that God doesn't exist'. Perhaps the seed of doubt is starting to creep into his mind eh...?
Air Profit is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2012, 00:10
  #29 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Sai Kungah
Posts: 199
Perhaps the seed of doubt is starting to creep into his mind eh...?
AP: no, and it is either very disengenious of you to suggest that, or you are not very well educated.

You should know that our system of science and logic and rational thought does not allow a negative to be proven.

It's that simple.

PS If we could prove a negative, I suggest that we wouldn't be having this conversation! (edited to add: one way or another!)
jed_thrust is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2012, 01:06
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Nirvana
Posts: 473
Thread Drift again!

AP: Richard Dawkins, ain't NO God, like Atheism is NOT a religion, like OFF is not a TV channel. Further, you have taken that quote completely out of context, that RD made; as Jed Thrust said, "You can't prove a negative!"
Keep religion, belief and pseudoscience out of this!

Now back to the thread, it's great to see the discussion on sleeping problems and strategies employed by various people. It seems that it requires different means to overcome dysfunctional/disturbed sleep patterns. Again these are symptoms, and not the problem. What should be looked at is rostering practices. Unfortunately, there appears to be a lot or resistance to this by our managers, as it would impact on crewing levels (increase), and as previously mentioned, their bonuses and dividends to shareholders. Whilst they cling to the word legal, they will only pay lip service to "safety" in so far as it is "legal."

I understand from reading previous threads, that in some NA carriers there are comprehensive and large contractual agreements between pilots and their respective companies on managing rosters, al la, fatigue management. Agreements that can't be twisted, misconstrued, misinterpreted and abused.
These type of agreements which are comprehensive should be considered as a benchmark when negotiating Rostering Practices. So, we should get THIS legal, and safe! Thus, there will be no need for sleeping tablets and such like other than for personal issues that disrupts ones life.
Bob Hawke is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2012, 01:25
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 38
Skillet, could you provide a link please to those experiments, I would really like to see that!

Secondly, if you are referring to the RNA world hypothesis, there is one minor point you should consider. RNA is made up from proteins, these proteins are coded in the RNA, the complex cellular machinery required to decode the DNA to make the proteins that make the RNA are also coded in the DNA so what we have is a rather vicious circle here. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Of course you will claim that the way the modern cell works could not have been the way it began, but this simply proves my point. Real observable science, now, in the present (remember the scientific method?) shows that living things require living things so any conjecture about how life may have started, and there are many huge problems with all this conjecture, is simply not science by your own definition. So you claim observable evidence when it suits but observable evidence undermines your entire worldview!

Apologies once again to everyone else who doesn't want to see this thread hijacked by a religious debate. I'll leave it here, no doubt Skillet will want to reply so please allow him that.
Gigaboomer is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2012, 03:26
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 601
Forget drugs...

Anyone who is sleep deprived should simply log on to this forum and start trying to follow the interminably boring discussions between Gigaboomer et al and Iron Skillet et al about science versus you know what - you'll be pushing out high quality zeds (or zees for our NA colleagues) before you can spell "Stilnox" backwards (now that method does NOT work).

I actually find the "attempt to follow a thread that started as a straightforward enquiry and was hijacked to become a discussion on something completely unrelated but guaranteed to start a pseudo-intellectual debate on who's penis is bigger than someone else's" method, far more effective than the tried and tested Ops Part A method.

Having said that, I freely admit this trial isn't very scientific inasmuch that the sample size is relatively small at one (me), zzzzzzzzzzzz

Steve the Pirate is offline  
Old 2nd Mar 2012, 04:47
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 60

Steve . . . . dead right about the deadly boring inducing drowsiness. Where I worked we called our many company issued manuals BIG RED SLEEPING PILLS.

For some there is soft music or soporific poetry to lull them into sleepiness.
The lullaby goes back centuries of course.

Kenneth Slessor was an Australian poet of the highest distinction. (He was also a war correspondent whose 'Beach Burial' is well worth a look, based on his experiences in Crete after the Germans over ran Greece. )

Another of his he called simply SLEEP -

Do you give yourself to me utterly,
Body and no-body, flesh and no-flesh,
Not as a fugitive, blindly or bitterly,
But as a child might, with no other wish?
Yes, utterly.

Then shall I bear you down my estuary,
Carry you and ferry you to burial mysteriously,
Take you and receive you,
Consume you, engulf you,
In the huge cave, my belly, lave you
With huger waves continually.

And you shall cling and clamber there
And slumber there, in that dumb chamber,
Beat with my blood's beat, hear my heart move
Blindly in bones that ride above you,
Delve in my flesh, dissolved and bedded,
Through viewless valves embodied so–

Till daylight, the expulsion and awakening,
The riving and driving forth,
Life with remorseless forceps beckoning–
Pangs and betrayal of harsh birth.
Fantome is offline  

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