new recruiting grounds for CX
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And why not fly them to hong kong for their second interview on the freighter.....it is a business class seat after all.
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Cpt. Underpants,
You're right, I have done it all wrong.
Life would have been so much easier to just buy my licence and clearly more usefull aswell.
I hope the idea of not being able to fly for my "childhood" airline wont hunt me forever
You're right, I have done it all wrong.
Life would have been so much easier to just buy my licence and clearly more usefull aswell.
I hope the idea of not being able to fly for my "childhood" airline wont hunt me forever
hahahaha
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I find it somewhat ironic that there have been discussions on this forum regarding Indian cabin crew, most of whom are highly thought of by the cockpit crew community for being well-educated, engaging and able to have meaningful discussions without descending into innuendo (and understanding any innuendo!).
By contrast, here we are slagging off potential recruits without knowing anything about them. The fact that there have been a significant number of pilots flying without proper qualifications in their country is naturally of concern. However, it would be unfair to make assumptions based on the actions of some - it's a bit like saying all Australians are boorish, or all Americans are obese, or all Brits are toffee-nosed public schoolboys - you get my drift.
I would have thought that any recruit would go through the same process. Assuming any of these candidates from the sub-continent are successful at interview, don' t they then have to go to flight screening before they're offered a course? Assuming they're successful at flight screening, don't they have to sit the same exams as everyone else? Assuming they're successful with their exams, don't they have to pass the same flying tests as everyone else? Assuming they pass they course in Adelaide, don't they undergo the same conversion training as everyone else?
I seem to remember that one of the doctors who used to revalidate aircrew medicals was of Indian origin and most people seemed happy to work with him - or doesn't that count? Or is it a case of us being happy for Indian girls to make our tea but not happy for any of their brothers to fly with us. Bigotry is a word that springs to mind.
STP
By contrast, here we are slagging off potential recruits without knowing anything about them. The fact that there have been a significant number of pilots flying without proper qualifications in their country is naturally of concern. However, it would be unfair to make assumptions based on the actions of some - it's a bit like saying all Australians are boorish, or all Americans are obese, or all Brits are toffee-nosed public schoolboys - you get my drift.
I would have thought that any recruit would go through the same process. Assuming any of these candidates from the sub-continent are successful at interview, don' t they then have to go to flight screening before they're offered a course? Assuming they're successful at flight screening, don't they have to sit the same exams as everyone else? Assuming they're successful with their exams, don't they have to pass the same flying tests as everyone else? Assuming they pass they course in Adelaide, don't they undergo the same conversion training as everyone else?
I seem to remember that one of the doctors who used to revalidate aircrew medicals was of Indian origin and most people seemed happy to work with him - or doesn't that count? Or is it a case of us being happy for Indian girls to make our tea but not happy for any of their brothers to fly with us. Bigotry is a word that springs to mind.
STP
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You have a good point, Steve, one must not stereotype. But you must admit that the timing is very suspicious.
Remember when all that tainted milk was making the headlines in China? What would you think of your local supermarket if they decided to import a boatload of Chinese milk soon thereafter, instead of the usual, more expensive imported milk from countries with regulations to reduce the risk of such an occurrence?
You have to admit, there are LOADS of countries from which Cathay could recruit. There are many pilots living all over the world. If the package is competitive, as Cathay claim it to be, then recruiting pilots should not be a problem, regardless of location. But you and I both know what is going on here. Politically correct BS aside, do you honestly think they are in "Incredible India" because they welcome adding so much diversity to the CPA group?
Come on, I know you operate into India, it is hard to avoid no matter what fleet you are on. As a whole, how much respect do you have for Indian Aviation? I'm sure there are some sharp knives in the drawer, like you say, we can't generalize. But you can't shut your eyes and plug your ears and just pretend it ain't so. The mess that is flying in India can't be blamed on anyone else but India.
Keep in mind, not every country excels in everything they do. I can accept that the US is probably not leading the pack when it comes to nutrition or even education. And maybe China won't win any awards for the most clean and polite country to visit - Hong Kong is certainly no place to take a "deep breath". But really, India? Is that what it really comes down to? Is saving pennies on recruitment worth the millions it will cost in training and liability?
Remember when all that tainted milk was making the headlines in China? What would you think of your local supermarket if they decided to import a boatload of Chinese milk soon thereafter, instead of the usual, more expensive imported milk from countries with regulations to reduce the risk of such an occurrence?
You have to admit, there are LOADS of countries from which Cathay could recruit. There are many pilots living all over the world. If the package is competitive, as Cathay claim it to be, then recruiting pilots should not be a problem, regardless of location. But you and I both know what is going on here. Politically correct BS aside, do you honestly think they are in "Incredible India" because they welcome adding so much diversity to the CPA group?
Come on, I know you operate into India, it is hard to avoid no matter what fleet you are on. As a whole, how much respect do you have for Indian Aviation? I'm sure there are some sharp knives in the drawer, like you say, we can't generalize. But you can't shut your eyes and plug your ears and just pretend it ain't so. The mess that is flying in India can't be blamed on anyone else but India.
Keep in mind, not every country excels in everything they do. I can accept that the US is probably not leading the pack when it comes to nutrition or even education. And maybe China won't win any awards for the most clean and polite country to visit - Hong Kong is certainly no place to take a "deep breath". But really, India? Is that what it really comes down to? Is saving pennies on recruitment worth the millions it will cost in training and liability?
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Sqwak7700,
Excellent retort!
STP,
I notice you did not defend Pakistan in your missive. Why's that? Perhaps PC only extends so far before it starts to look ridiculous.
One only need look at our current cadets to see that it is difficult (not impossible) to obtain a Western caliber aviator from a non-Western country. It's not bigotry so much as reality. It has to do with culture and the aviation environment in which we grow up, not race.
CXorcist
PS - I like Indian cabin crew as well, but anyone who knows anything about India knows their women are much more refined than their men, by Western standards at least
Excellent retort!
STP,
I notice you did not defend Pakistan in your missive. Why's that? Perhaps PC only extends so far before it starts to look ridiculous.
One only need look at our current cadets to see that it is difficult (not impossible) to obtain a Western caliber aviator from a non-Western country. It's not bigotry so much as reality. It has to do with culture and the aviation environment in which we grow up, not race.
CXorcist
PS - I like Indian cabin crew as well, but anyone who knows anything about India knows their women are much more refined than their men, by Western standards at least
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Sqwak7700, I like your analogy of the tainted milk. However, to continue your analogy, there is one fundamental difference in that the "produce" will have been tested at a number of different stages before "consumption". Both you and cxorcist either didn't read the questions I posed in my original post or simply chose to ignore them and I await anyone's reply with interest.
I agree that operating into India is challenging but I guess when there's been a goodness-knows-how-many percent increase in air traffic whilst trying to operate with ageing infrastructure (and hence procedures) then, on reflection, they (ATC) do a reasonable job.
Not at all.
I agree but flying is a skill, much the same as cricket is a skill - some countries excel, England for instance, and others would suck if they played it. India plays a pretty mean game of cricket.. Going on from your point about a few sharp knives, in a country of 1 billion people I would hazard a guess that, statistically, there are one or two who might fit the bill - if they want to come to Hong Kong that is.
What is the basis for this comment? Do you think that anyone from the sub-continent would not receive the same training (and checking) that our current pilots do? If they receive the same training and checking then surely that would be the deciding factor for underwriters, not the percentage breakdown of nationalities?
cxorcist - long time no debate, how are you?
I didn't defend Pakistan but my comments apply equally to applicants from there or, for that matter, any country. Why should one's country of origin be an impediment to joining a company? I've heard it said that eyebrows were raised when the first Canadians were recruited, and look at how many excellent Canadian pilots we have now eh? Further, I'm not being PC - surely if someone is good enough then they should be offered a position rather than not if the only criterion for not offering the position is a perception that their employment will lower the standards of the airline.
I disagree. The reality is that we are all making assumptions - yes, me too - with the vast majority of respondents on this thread assuming that all iCadets are going to be useless , especially those who are the subject of this particular thread. The reality is that that this perception is driven by the fact that because they are willing to accept a lower package then they are assumed to be sub-standard and I simply can't see how such an assertion can be made without personal (or corporate) experience. So I still think bigotry is involved here.
Presumably by this you mean something like the aviation environment in which many of our Hong Kong pilots grew up? I'm sure that some had a lifelong passion for flying but I also would hazard a guess that many of our current local pilots hadn't even thought about a career in aviation until they saw an advert in a newspaper.
So, I'll ask again, will these boys and girls have to go through the same selection, exams, flying tests and on-going checking as everyone else?
STP
I agree that operating into India is challenging but I guess when there's been a goodness-knows-how-many percent increase in air traffic whilst trying to operate with ageing infrastructure (and hence procedures) then, on reflection, they (ATC) do a reasonable job.
Politically correct BS aside, do you honestly think they are in "Incredible India" because they welcome adding so much diversity to the CPA group?
Keep in mind, not every country excels in everything they do.
Is saving pennies on recruitment worth the millions it will cost in training and liability?
cxorcist - long time no debate, how are you?
I notice you did not defend Pakistan in your missive. Why's that? Perhaps PC only extends so far before it starts to look ridiculous.
It's not bigotry so much as reality.
It has to do with culture and the aviation environment in which we grow up, not race.
So, I'll ask again, will these boys and girls have to go through the same selection, exams, flying tests and on-going checking as everyone else?
STP
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STP-
I'm well. Thanks for asking.
You're correct. They will sit them same exams and checks we did, but does that mean they will perform to the same standard? I think not.
If the economics require a lower checking standard to put butts in seats, that is what we'll get. Does anyone really think that the standard hasn't been lowered over the last five years? Of course it has. Some of this was necessary and overdue as CX has a tendency to master the unnecessary. However, there are quite a few FOs and SOs here now that would have been terminated in the past.
The truth is that CX should not be anyone's first flying gig. My opinion is that this lends to a lack of perspective, but I suppose we don't need to argue that again.
I'm well. Thanks for asking.
You're correct. They will sit them same exams and checks we did, but does that mean they will perform to the same standard? I think not.
If the economics require a lower checking standard to put butts in seats, that is what we'll get. Does anyone really think that the standard hasn't been lowered over the last five years? Of course it has. Some of this was necessary and overdue as CX has a tendency to master the unnecessary. However, there are quite a few FOs and SOs here now that would have been terminated in the past.
The truth is that CX should not be anyone's first flying gig. My opinion is that this lends to a lack of perspective, but I suppose we don't need to argue that again.
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cxorcist,
What's the basis for this statement?
So are you saying that all of our independent, CAD approved examiners have been allowing pilots to pass checks when, if fact, they should have failed? If so, what is your source to back up this assertion?
You know this as a fact or is it a perception you have from flying with those who you think aren't cutting the mustard? I must say, the vast majority of pilots I fly with are very, very good - maybe I'm either lucky or have no appreciation of what the standard should be.
I don't think that's the truth, merely your opinion and I respect that. It's a bit like saying, "Let's be honest" when a comparison is being made based on a biased point of view. As it happens, we have a significant number of locally employed pilots for whom CX is their "first gig", as you put it, and will probably be their only "gig". Do they lack perspective? Possibly. Would they have had a broader experience had they worked for other companies before coming here? Naturally. Does this lack of breadth of experience make them bad pilots? Probably not. That, of course, is my opinion.
STP
but does that mean they will perform to the same standard? I think not.
If the economics require a lower checking standard to put butts in seats, that is what we'll get.
However, there are quite a few FOs and SOs here now that would have been terminated in the past.
The truth is that CX should not be anyone's first flying gig.
STP
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STP,
I think you are being a bit pedantic. This is a rumor forum, not a scientific journal. All the evidence is empirical. I cannot apply the scientific method to any of our statements. However, I don't think that makes the statement invalid, just debateable. Hence, we have a forum where guys disagree.
With regard to standards, I will agree that most CX pilots are sharp. However, several things have dulled the blade over the last few years. RA65 has not helped. Some guys into their 60s start to lose what they once had, but they can still pull off a LC or PC. On the other end, some of our new SOs are so inexperienced that I cannot stop thinking about it when I take an inflight slash. Several FOs hired onto bases have survived multiple chop checks. That would not have happened several years back. One guy even busted a chop check but managed to get another to pass. This is definitely a kinder and gentler CX. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but you have to wonder how far it will go with recruitment working its way onto the subcontinent and beyond.
An obvious tell will be the English standard. If it starts to drop, we will know CX is truly bottom feeding and not just looking for the best applicants from around the world at the cheapest price. Do you disagree?
CXorcist
I think you are being a bit pedantic. This is a rumor forum, not a scientific journal. All the evidence is empirical. I cannot apply the scientific method to any of our statements. However, I don't think that makes the statement invalid, just debateable. Hence, we have a forum where guys disagree.
With regard to standards, I will agree that most CX pilots are sharp. However, several things have dulled the blade over the last few years. RA65 has not helped. Some guys into their 60s start to lose what they once had, but they can still pull off a LC or PC. On the other end, some of our new SOs are so inexperienced that I cannot stop thinking about it when I take an inflight slash. Several FOs hired onto bases have survived multiple chop checks. That would not have happened several years back. One guy even busted a chop check but managed to get another to pass. This is definitely a kinder and gentler CX. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but you have to wonder how far it will go with recruitment working its way onto the subcontinent and beyond.
An obvious tell will be the English standard. If it starts to drop, we will know CX is truly bottom feeding and not just looking for the best applicants from around the world at the cheapest price. Do you disagree?
CXorcist
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No matter where they are looking for new recruits, Cx is bottom feeding.
We have an SO from Canada, which is seriously bottom feeding stuff!
He is the worst I have seen in over 15 years at CX. I think he makes a low timer from India look good!
We have an SO from Canada, which is seriously bottom feeding stuff!
He is the worst I have seen in over 15 years at CX. I think he makes a low timer from India look good!
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cxorcist
I am being pedantic and, for that, I make no apologies. You're right, this is a rumour forum but when posters make statements that are nothing other than their opinions dressed up to be fact then that's when my pedanticometer goes off-scale. I also agree with your statement above but so often posters are reluctant to enter a debate when their posts have been ridiculed when all they're trying to do is offer an alternative point of view.
Perhaps you're right but unless there are facts to support this statement it is, once again, either your opinion or hearsay.
So presumably you're saying that if something were to happen whilst you were away from the controls you are concerned that these inexperienced SOs would be incapable of making the correct decision and taking appropriate action? May I ask how you felt when you were flying with some of our locally employed cadets who are now STCs? The fact is that everyone starts off inexperienced and they learn their trade and gain experience on the job.
As far as the English standard goes, I thought all pilots had to achieve and maintain a certain level from an ICAO standpoint to be able to hold a licence - I'm not sure this has anything to do with CX. Out of the 2500+ pilots we have at the moment I'm not sure how many aren't Level 6 but I was under the impression that those who aren't are evaluated on a regular basis - anyone?
Clearly only time will tell if either of us are right or wrong. If it transpires that this tranche of recruits is below standard then some of the comments on this thread will turn out to have been justified. I still stand by my opinion that many of the posts have the word 'bigot' stamped across them - and I'm not being PC here.
Frogman1484
I sincerely hope that you have taken your concerns about this particular individual to the 3rd floor as to do otherwise is being irresponsible.
STP
However, I don't think that makes the statement invalid, just debateable.
Some guys into their 60s start to lose what they once had, but they can still pull off a LC or PC.
On the other end, some of our new SOs are so inexperienced that I cannot stop thinking about it when I take an inflight slash.
As far as the English standard goes, I thought all pilots had to achieve and maintain a certain level from an ICAO standpoint to be able to hold a licence - I'm not sure this has anything to do with CX. Out of the 2500+ pilots we have at the moment I'm not sure how many aren't Level 6 but I was under the impression that those who aren't are evaluated on a regular basis - anyone?
Clearly only time will tell if either of us are right or wrong. If it transpires that this tranche of recruits is below standard then some of the comments on this thread will turn out to have been justified. I still stand by my opinion that many of the posts have the word 'bigot' stamped across them - and I'm not being PC here.
Frogman1484
I sincerely hope that you have taken your concerns about this particular individual to the 3rd floor as to do otherwise is being irresponsible.
STP
Steve the Pirate
If it is the person I think it is, the 3rd floor is very well aware of this problem child. His/her reputation precedes them from problems in ADL, conversion and LFUS training to line flights. If this person doesn’t wake up to themselves soon I’ll be very surprised if they make it to a JFO course let alone passing one.
Frogman1484
I sincerely hope that you have taken your concerns about this particular individual to the 3rd floor as to do otherwise is being irresponsible.
I sincerely hope that you have taken your concerns about this particular individual to the 3rd floor as to do otherwise is being irresponsible.
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404 Titan
Thanks for the clarification. It would be interesting to know what, if any, additional training and/or counselling this particular individual is receiving. Bit of a thread drift - apologies.
STP
Thanks for the clarification. It would be interesting to know what, if any, additional training and/or counselling this particular individual is receiving. Bit of a thread drift - apologies.
STP
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This isn't an issue of race or nationality. It is an issue of experience.
We have had numerous zero hour pilots join CX over the years, (Cadet Entry Pilots formerly known as LEPs) who have worked hard & achieved great success. The thing that has helped them along is the opportunity to learn from the experience of pilots around them.
What would happen if CX were to announce that effective today, the only entry point is for zero hour HKID holding cadets? IMHO we would see, over time, a gross dissolution of the experience levels of the pilots company wide. I'm not just simply referring to hours in the log book, but more fundamental things, like flight deck & bar discussions about topics such as "how I nearly killed myself flying a light twin at night in icing conditions". In an airline, due to the normally benign nature of the operation, people learn more from war-stories than they do from seeing things go awry in the aircraft.
The point is that there is nothing wrong with having SOME low or zero hour guys, but they need to be balanced with experienced recruits.
Have another look at the link to the thread on the India forum and ask yourself who these applicants are. Are they highly experienced pilots, or do most seem to struggle to meet the bare-minimum requirements?
Ts & Cs in India might not sound as good as other places on paper, but consider them in the context of the cost of living. My take is that any pilot in India already with a job where he can gain the type of experience we need will be taking a big chop in his lifestyle to move to CX, and won't want to do it. Which is exactly what they found when they tried to recruit in Pakistan.
Let me re-state my first line:
This isn't an issue of race or nationality. It is an issue of experience.
We have had numerous zero hour pilots join CX over the years, (Cadet Entry Pilots formerly known as LEPs) who have worked hard & achieved great success. The thing that has helped them along is the opportunity to learn from the experience of pilots around them.
What would happen if CX were to announce that effective today, the only entry point is for zero hour HKID holding cadets? IMHO we would see, over time, a gross dissolution of the experience levels of the pilots company wide. I'm not just simply referring to hours in the log book, but more fundamental things, like flight deck & bar discussions about topics such as "how I nearly killed myself flying a light twin at night in icing conditions". In an airline, due to the normally benign nature of the operation, people learn more from war-stories than they do from seeing things go awry in the aircraft.
The point is that there is nothing wrong with having SOME low or zero hour guys, but they need to be balanced with experienced recruits.
Have another look at the link to the thread on the India forum and ask yourself who these applicants are. Are they highly experienced pilots, or do most seem to struggle to meet the bare-minimum requirements?
Ts & Cs in India might not sound as good as other places on paper, but consider them in the context of the cost of living. My take is that any pilot in India already with a job where he can gain the type of experience we need will be taking a big chop in his lifestyle to move to CX, and won't want to do it. Which is exactly what they found when they tried to recruit in Pakistan.
Let me re-state my first line:
This isn't an issue of race or nationality. It is an issue of experience.
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We have an SO from Canada, which is seriously bottom feeding stuff!
He is the worst I have seen in over 15 years at CX.
He is the worst I have seen in over 15 years at CX.
No No No No No,
I have flown with loads of Canadians and they all tell me they are great at flying.
You must be mistaken.
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STP:
You speak of your posts as facts, what makes them any more fact than other's posts? Seems a bit pretentious to me buddy.
You want facts? Look at this link:
Panicking co-pilot put Air India Express jet into steep dive - The National
I don't have a problem with Indian pilots. We have some now which are fine individuals. My problem is with Cathay going to recruit specifically in India BECAUSE they can't attract any other crew in the current scheme, regardless of nationality or race.
But you ignore the fact that the recruitment drive in India is brought on by the fact that no-one is accepting the current package. So, an airline like Cathay who used to have a pile of resumes from all over the world to choose from, is reduced to slithering off to a third world country with systemic, SERIOUS aviation safety problems in order to find people willing to accept this crap deal.
That was the point of my post. You decided to focus on the race itself, my problem is recruiting from an area which is known to be deficient in quality and devoid of any safety culture. I don't care if they are Indian, African, Asian, Caucasian, or Latino. We have all of these at Cathay. The problem is not having different races, the problem is focusing your recruitment in an area plagued by problems because you no longer attract the best candidate.
Do you see the difference? I'm with you on the race discrimination stuff, but I think we are talking about different things really.
You speak of your posts as facts, what makes them any more fact than other's posts? Seems a bit pretentious to me buddy.
So presumably you're saying that if something were to happen whilst you were away from the controls you are concerned that these inexperienced SOs would be incapable of making the correct decision and taking appropriate action?
Panicking co-pilot put Air India Express jet into steep dive - The National
I don't have a problem with Indian pilots. We have some now which are fine individuals. My problem is with Cathay going to recruit specifically in India BECAUSE they can't attract any other crew in the current scheme, regardless of nationality or race.
But you ignore the fact that the recruitment drive in India is brought on by the fact that no-one is accepting the current package. So, an airline like Cathay who used to have a pile of resumes from all over the world to choose from, is reduced to slithering off to a third world country with systemic, SERIOUS aviation safety problems in order to find people willing to accept this crap deal.
That was the point of my post. You decided to focus on the race itself, my problem is recruiting from an area which is known to be deficient in quality and devoid of any safety culture. I don't care if they are Indian, African, Asian, Caucasian, or Latino. We have all of these at Cathay. The problem is not having different races, the problem is focusing your recruitment in an area plagued by problems because you no longer attract the best candidate.
Do you see the difference? I'm with you on the race discrimination stuff, but I think we are talking about different things really.