new recruiting grounds for CX
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Dragon Air's new Standard contract
Im with Aquis on his comments.
If your a first officer xpat in this town with wife and kids, there is nothing left at the end of the month.
THe locals, are a lot younger on average, so a lot of them live with their parents and single. Those that are married with kids can send their kids to local schools, albeit they would love the choice to send them to better schools.
The housing that they end up buying is suitable if thats how you were bought up, but if you want a big apartment the "special allowance" will get you sweet FA.
I came here for the Capts salary diff from the FO's and the Housing purchase.
Even with the USD were it is (hkd pegged), I'd be having second thoughts, considering the lifestyle sacrifice and moving away from clean air.
This below has just been posted on the union website:
MUST KNOW FOR PROSPECTIVE DRAGONAIR PILOTS - the Standard Contract
Effective as of 1 April 2012, all pilots recruited by Dragonair will be employed on
the Standard Conditions of Service (CoS) regardless of background or experience.
The Standard COS was unilaterally introduced by the Company, without input and
consultation with the Dragonair Pilots Association (DPA). The DPA has attempted to
rectify this without success thus far.
The Standard CoS is an inferior contract compared to the Expatriate B Scale that all
previous pilots recruited from overseas were offered. Cadet entry and local
citizens are employed on a 'Local' CoS, which is at a lower total remuneration than
the Standard CoS and Expatriate CoS.
Standard CoS Details
The Standard CoS is made up of three parts;
1. Part 1 - contains Contractual Agreements that affect your condition of service
and will only be changed with your consent,
2. Part 2 - contains Company Policies that are written for your information only.
It does not confer contractual rights to you and may be unilaterally amended or
removed by the Company at it's sole discretion, and
3. Part 3 - Agreed Policies which are agreements between the DPA and Dragonair.
Agreed policies may only be amended after mutual agreement between the DPA and Dragonair.
Unfortunately, benefits and provisions that may affect your decision to join
Dragonair, such as Credit Hour Provisions, Child Education Allowance Policy and
Medical Benefits are now Part 2, which means they can be amended or removed
unilaterally if and when the company sees fit.
Importantly, your credit hours could be amended from 75 per month (as currently set)
to a higher level without your approval, or a salary increase. Housing and Education are very
expensive in Hong Kong, and the medical benefits have not been adequately increased
for over 15 years.
Spaces for International schools are limited and require up front debentures typically between HKD $100,000 and $400,000 . Some of these debentures are non refundable. This is in additon to annual fees of approximately HKD $100,000. per child.
Conclusion
All currently employed pilots were given the opportunity to sign over to the
Standard CoS.
However due to the 'open to change' nature of the Standard CoS, the overwhelming
majority of the pilots employed on the Local CoS did not switch over to this
Standard CoS. This despite it providing provision for SUBSTANTIAL increases to
Child Education Allowance and Special Allowance compared to the current Local CoS of
around HKD 20k to 30 k per month.
The Standard CoS is about 40% below the Expatriate CoS.
The DPA advises all prospective new joiners to study and evaluate the Standard CoS
prior to accepting employment with Dragonair and consider the impact it could
have on your career and lifestyle in Hong Kong.
If your a first officer xpat in this town with wife and kids, there is nothing left at the end of the month.
THe locals, are a lot younger on average, so a lot of them live with their parents and single. Those that are married with kids can send their kids to local schools, albeit they would love the choice to send them to better schools.
The housing that they end up buying is suitable if thats how you were bought up, but if you want a big apartment the "special allowance" will get you sweet FA.
I came here for the Capts salary diff from the FO's and the Housing purchase.
Even with the USD were it is (hkd pegged), I'd be having second thoughts, considering the lifestyle sacrifice and moving away from clean air.
This below has just been posted on the union website:
MUST KNOW FOR PROSPECTIVE DRAGONAIR PILOTS - the Standard Contract
Effective as of 1 April 2012, all pilots recruited by Dragonair will be employed on
the Standard Conditions of Service (CoS) regardless of background or experience.
The Standard COS was unilaterally introduced by the Company, without input and
consultation with the Dragonair Pilots Association (DPA). The DPA has attempted to
rectify this without success thus far.
The Standard CoS is an inferior contract compared to the Expatriate B Scale that all
previous pilots recruited from overseas were offered. Cadet entry and local
citizens are employed on a 'Local' CoS, which is at a lower total remuneration than
the Standard CoS and Expatriate CoS.
Standard CoS Details
The Standard CoS is made up of three parts;
1. Part 1 - contains Contractual Agreements that affect your condition of service
and will only be changed with your consent,
2. Part 2 - contains Company Policies that are written for your information only.
It does not confer contractual rights to you and may be unilaterally amended or
removed by the Company at it's sole discretion, and
3. Part 3 - Agreed Policies which are agreements between the DPA and Dragonair.
Agreed policies may only be amended after mutual agreement between the DPA and Dragonair.
Unfortunately, benefits and provisions that may affect your decision to join
Dragonair, such as Credit Hour Provisions, Child Education Allowance Policy and
Medical Benefits are now Part 2, which means they can be amended or removed
unilaterally if and when the company sees fit.
Importantly, your credit hours could be amended from 75 per month (as currently set)
to a higher level without your approval, or a salary increase. Housing and Education are very
expensive in Hong Kong, and the medical benefits have not been adequately increased
for over 15 years.
Spaces for International schools are limited and require up front debentures typically between HKD $100,000 and $400,000 . Some of these debentures are non refundable. This is in additon to annual fees of approximately HKD $100,000. per child.
Conclusion
All currently employed pilots were given the opportunity to sign over to the
Standard CoS.
However due to the 'open to change' nature of the Standard CoS, the overwhelming
majority of the pilots employed on the Local CoS did not switch over to this
Standard CoS. This despite it providing provision for SUBSTANTIAL increases to
Child Education Allowance and Special Allowance compared to the current Local CoS of
around HKD 20k to 30 k per month.
The Standard CoS is about 40% below the Expatriate CoS.
The DPA advises all prospective new joiners to study and evaluate the Standard CoS
prior to accepting employment with Dragonair and consider the impact it could
have on your career and lifestyle in Hong Kong.
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it is time the hkaoa does something about this sub-standard contract!
Else you can see what will happen: all new joiners get in without a proper expat package, next thing: all expats are to sign the new package or get fired (not now, as we're still short of crew, but in a few years?)
Man, these are the important things! c scale, 25 years housing, bases, double tax...
AOA, please focus on this, and not how your federation is (not) working!
When are the next GC election due?
Else you can see what will happen: all new joiners get in without a proper expat package, next thing: all expats are to sign the new package or get fired (not now, as we're still short of crew, but in a few years?)
Man, these are the important things! c scale, 25 years housing, bases, double tax...
AOA, please focus on this, and not how your federation is (not) working!
When are the next GC election due?
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I've said this before and I will keep saying it.
1. Have a plan B.
2. Have the equivalent of 6mths salary in a liquid asset: ready to go.
I am not saying to give up, but when this crewing issue solves itself I see hard times ahead.
1. Have a plan B.
2. Have the equivalent of 6mths salary in a liquid asset: ready to go.
I am not saying to give up, but when this crewing issue solves itself I see hard times ahead.
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I think they will have much more luck in Pakistan than in India. Pakistan is basically a failed State and I think you will get pilots applying just so they can get the Permanent HK ID after 7yrs and thus get their families out of the country.
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So, no need to go to Adelaide for some?
...applicants with sufficient experience and impressive credentials may skip the training process and be invited directly to Hong Kong, Hodges explains.
Is this in fact an old story, of which the upshot was that four Pakistani pilots were offered positions but the deal CX offered was so bad even they turned it down?
If not, how will Pakistani pilots get on with our relatively large numbers of Indian cabin crew?
Will they be able to operate to BOM, DEL and Chennai?
How will these pilots get on with CX cockpit crew of Indian extraction?
Will there be adequate background and security checks on these individuals?
How will the company check the professional credentials of these pilots, from one of the most corrupt countries on the planet, very close to a 'failed state'? And if no flight grading for some at ADL is correct, will some of them slip through the wicket keeper?
Is the Parker pen company setting up an outlet (specialising in refills) in Karachi?
What will happen if the Captain takes the chicken leaving only the pork as a meal choice?
So many questions...
If not, how will Pakistani pilots get on with our relatively large numbers of Indian cabin crew?
Will they be able to operate to BOM, DEL and Chennai?
How will these pilots get on with CX cockpit crew of Indian extraction?
Will there be adequate background and security checks on these individuals?
How will the company check the professional credentials of these pilots, from one of the most corrupt countries on the planet, very close to a 'failed state'? And if no flight grading for some at ADL is correct, will some of them slip through the wicket keeper?
Is the Parker pen company setting up an outlet (specialising in refills) in Karachi?
What will happen if the Captain takes the chicken leaving only the pork as a meal choice?
So many questions...
Last edited by Captain Dart; 12th Apr 2012 at 02:50. Reason: More questions
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it is time the hkaoa does something about this sub-standard contract!
Else you can see what will happen: all new joiners get in without a proper expat package, next thing: all expats are to sign the new package or get fired (not now, as we're still short of crew, but in a few years?)
Man, these are the important things! c scale, 25 years housing, bases, double tax...
AOA, please focus on this, and not how your federation is (not) working!
Else you can see what will happen: all new joiners get in without a proper expat package, next thing: all expats are to sign the new package or get fired (not now, as we're still short of crew, but in a few years?)
Man, these are the important things! c scale, 25 years housing, bases, double tax...
AOA, please focus on this, and not how your federation is (not) working!
There is no way a new hire with no hours is ever going to get full expat allowances, and why should they? In the past it was a reward for your experience and hard work in your previous life. If you all expect to be spoon fed for your whole life, NEWSFLASH!!!!!
Shoot me I don't give a f@ck, just understand that if none of you had taken the package then yes, it would have been better in the long run.
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LMAO...wow..
I assume Cathay is inviting more applicants for the AE-SO programme. The HR dept. may have accidentally sent emails to the candidates who sat for/passed the Stage 1 interview in Mumbai. I'll get that confirmed tomorrow.
I really don't think there is an issue with the 250 hours requirement at the moment. Pilots from Cathay's traditional recruiting grounds may be declining the offer which could be the reason they're coming back to India again. This is just an assumption and it will be good news for the pilot community in India.
bond - We did the Stage 1 interview. Cathay sent us the email 3 weeks ago clearly mentioning that we have been shortlisted for the Stage 2 interview in Hong Kong. Why do you think this could be the end of the line?
I assume Cathay is inviting more applicants for the AE-SO programme. The HR dept. may have accidentally sent emails to the candidates who sat for/passed the Stage 1 interview in Mumbai. I'll get that confirmed tomorrow.
I really don't think there is an issue with the 250 hours requirement at the moment. Pilots from Cathay's traditional recruiting grounds may be declining the offer which could be the reason they're coming back to India again. This is just an assumption and it will be good news for the pilot community in India.
bond - We did the Stage 1 interview. Cathay sent us the email 3 weeks ago clearly mentioning that we have been shortlisted for the Stage 2 interview in Hong Kong. Why do you think this could be the end of the line?
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No touching...
When I worked with the Paks they said would not shake hands with the female cabin crew as it was against their religion.. That will be interesting in dispatch. Maybe so their hands don't slip off the controls? 9Mind you BM (ex?) wouldn't either due to 'germs'.
What happens at prayer time? Our lot used to disappear with flip flops to head butt the floor. Will the FMC have to have a MECCA waypoint so they can point head in right direction? Will they eat on day flights in Ramadam? Will they work in Ramadam? Will they get extra hols for EID al Adha and EID al Fitre? Will all our meals have to be Halal? How will they learn good aviation stuff without drinking down route? Will we have to have help me Allah prayers stuck on the consol? Will they even FLY with a lady pilot?
Bet RH didn't think of that lot!!!
Allah Akbar but CX is greater.........
What happens at prayer time? Our lot used to disappear with flip flops to head butt the floor. Will the FMC have to have a MECCA waypoint so they can point head in right direction? Will they eat on day flights in Ramadam? Will they work in Ramadam? Will they get extra hols for EID al Adha and EID al Fitre? Will all our meals have to be Halal? How will they learn good aviation stuff without drinking down route? Will we have to have help me Allah prayers stuck on the consol? Will they even FLY with a lady pilot?
Bet RH didn't think of that lot!!!
Allah Akbar but CX is greater.........
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@jetsam,
In my opinion, they have to integrate.. But there is a problem, they never had to integrate.. They were born and raised up in there homecountry.. So it will become an issue if they can't or don't want to integrate..
I'm a muslim, but I'm a foreigner in a country where I'm now living in.. I'm born and raised up here so not really a big issue.. But again, even integrating here was hard for me and even more for my parents (doh).
- I shake hans with women;
- I even don't pray (I'm sorry), sometimes on fridays when I don't have to go to school or work;
- Halal food, that will become an issue.. They have to bring their own meals I think or not??
In my opinion, they have to integrate.. But there is a problem, they never had to integrate.. They were born and raised up in there homecountry.. So it will become an issue if they can't or don't want to integrate..
I'm a muslim, but I'm a foreigner in a country where I'm now living in.. I'm born and raised up here so not really a big issue.. But again, even integrating here was hard for me and even more for my parents (doh).
- I shake hans with women;
- I even don't pray (I'm sorry), sometimes on fridays when I don't have to go to school or work;
- Halal food, that will become an issue.. They have to bring their own meals I think or not??
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You are right with that, you never know if it is REALLY halal or not..
But, you have to do something to eat halal.. and buying food with a sticker halal on it, will consist..(I hope)
But, you have to do something to eat halal.. and buying food with a sticker halal on it, will consist..(I hope)
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You "hope?"
Some Fridays (which may actually be Thursdays or Saturdays) you don't talk to yourself?
Seriously, do you hear yourself now? Can you not see for yourself how crazy this stuff is? It's a piece of food. No other animals worry about the slaughtering of their food. Ever wonder why? When you see other people talking to themselves or into the air, do you think they are sane? Ever wonder why?
And they let you fly airplanes?
Some Fridays (which may actually be Thursdays or Saturdays) you don't talk to yourself?
Seriously, do you hear yourself now? Can you not see for yourself how crazy this stuff is? It's a piece of food. No other animals worry about the slaughtering of their food. Ever wonder why? When you see other people talking to themselves or into the air, do you think they are sane? Ever wonder why?
And they let you fly airplanes?
Iron skillet
They let you fly aeroplanes with all of your religious ramblings as well.
You guys are forgetting the point of the thread and focusing on pointless information. The point is Cx will not recruit the best pilots anymore only the cheaper pilots whatever colour, gender, race or religion that may be. Stop concerning yourself with the dietary requirements of others.
They let you fly aeroplanes with all of your religious ramblings as well.
You guys are forgetting the point of the thread and focusing on pointless information. The point is Cx will not recruit the best pilots anymore only the cheaper pilots whatever colour, gender, race or religion that may be. Stop concerning yourself with the dietary requirements of others.
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I think you're confusing religious ramblings with evidence-based reasoning. The dietary requirements of others are why we have to be nearly strip searched in many places before getting into the cockpits for work.
Do you have a plan to stop your employer from choosing who they want to hire?
Do you have a plan to stop your employer from choosing who they want to hire?
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Sleepy Air Canada pilot dives plane; 16 injured
Toronto: A sleepy Air Canada pilot who mistakenly believed his jet was about to crash into a U.S. military plane forced a sudden dive that caused 16 injuries among passengers and crew on a transatlantic flight, a report says.
The Transportation Safety Board report released on Monday describes the 46 seconds in which the plane dived and lurched back up during an overnight Air Canada flight from Toronto to Zurich in January 2011. Those hurt weren't wearing seatbelts, the report said.
According to the report, the plane's first officer was napping during a rest period aimed at combating pilot fatigue when the captain's report on their position woke him.
At the same time, a U.S. Air Force plane was approaching about 300 yards (meters) below. That set off cockpit alerts, which the captain mentioned to the first officer.
The "confused and disoriented" co-pilot at first mistook the planet Venus for the approaching plane, the report said. When he did spot it, he thought it was coming straight at them. He overrode the auto-pilot by forcefully pressing on the control column, pushing the jet into a dive.
Fourteen passengers and two flight attendants among the mostly 103 sleeping people aboard slammed into parts of the plane, getting cuts and bruises.
The captain regained control as the U.S. military plane passed safely and returned the plane to its cruising altitude.
"This occurrence underscores the challenge of managing fatigue on the flight deck," Jon Lee, the investigator in charge, said in a statement.
Seven of the injured were treated in the hospital on arrival in Zurich three hours later. The investigation found that the first officer, who had been asleep for about 75 minutes, was suffering "sleep inertia" magnified by fatigue.
The report said flight crews were not following standard procedures for "strategic napping," which is normally of 40 minutes duration. Pilots are supposed to have 15 minutes after a nap to awaken properly before taking control, according to safety protocols.
Capt. Paul Strachan, President of the Air Canada Pilots Association, said the incident shows Canada needs to mandate a third pilot for eastbound transatlantic flights instead of the inflight rest periods.
"Canada's regulations are stark in their insensitivity to the science of fatigue," Strachan said.
Air Canada spokesman Peter Fitzpatrick said the company had already taken steps to address the fatigue issues. Pilots who feel they are too tired to fly have to report it, and a non-punitive system allows them to withdraw from assignments.
The Transportation Safety Board report released on Monday describes the 46 seconds in which the plane dived and lurched back up during an overnight Air Canada flight from Toronto to Zurich in January 2011. Those hurt weren't wearing seatbelts, the report said.
According to the report, the plane's first officer was napping during a rest period aimed at combating pilot fatigue when the captain's report on their position woke him.
At the same time, a U.S. Air Force plane was approaching about 300 yards (meters) below. That set off cockpit alerts, which the captain mentioned to the first officer.
The "confused and disoriented" co-pilot at first mistook the planet Venus for the approaching plane, the report said. When he did spot it, he thought it was coming straight at them. He overrode the auto-pilot by forcefully pressing on the control column, pushing the jet into a dive.
Fourteen passengers and two flight attendants among the mostly 103 sleeping people aboard slammed into parts of the plane, getting cuts and bruises.
The captain regained control as the U.S. military plane passed safely and returned the plane to its cruising altitude.
"This occurrence underscores the challenge of managing fatigue on the flight deck," Jon Lee, the investigator in charge, said in a statement.
Seven of the injured were treated in the hospital on arrival in Zurich three hours later. The investigation found that the first officer, who had been asleep for about 75 minutes, was suffering "sleep inertia" magnified by fatigue.
The report said flight crews were not following standard procedures for "strategic napping," which is normally of 40 minutes duration. Pilots are supposed to have 15 minutes after a nap to awaken properly before taking control, according to safety protocols.
Capt. Paul Strachan, President of the Air Canada Pilots Association, said the incident shows Canada needs to mandate a third pilot for eastbound transatlantic flights instead of the inflight rest periods.
"Canada's regulations are stark in their insensitivity to the science of fatigue," Strachan said.
Air Canada spokesman Peter Fitzpatrick said the company had already taken steps to address the fatigue issues. Pilots who feel they are too tired to fly have to report it, and a non-punitive system allows them to withdraw from assignments.