Hong Kong Schooling, is your child primary 1 Sep 2012?
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I don't pity anyone who signed a contract, just to be sure have they removed housing from the contract you signed with the other airline in HKG? If they have that is terrible and you should fight to get it back or leave. If it was never there in the first place 
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Turnandburn
There education is paramount.
There are millions of chinese not 20 km from here trying to get there kids educated here.
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Learn to read, we did the research, we applied when we had too, our kids have not failed there interviews, they have not been offered interviews. Going by your argument because an apartment was brought during SARS for 2mil a new joiner today could buy the same one for 2mil.... Times change and regarding schooling if you read any newspaper you will read that only in the last 12-18 months the schools have become extremely overfilled, so of course hundreds of pilots before us have not had an issue but from the PMs I have received it definitely is now.
Last time I checked ESF nor other schools accepted bribes so unless you think paying a 400000 debenture at discovery college is what we should all be doing to get our kids into school then you are as self-conceited as you come across.
Regarding selection at ESF they use a lottery system to select candidates for interviews we hand delivered our applications on the first day they were open.
So if you don't like the current RP's, or housing do you just pack up and go home or do you raise the subject so that it can be addressed, my post is aimed at getting further evidence of others in the same situation so we can maybe convince the AOA and the company this is an issue.
Thanks for the PMs please keep them coming.
Last time I checked ESF nor other schools accepted bribes so unless you think paying a 400000 debenture at discovery college is what we should all be doing to get our kids into school then you are as self-conceited as you come across.
Regarding selection at ESF they use a lottery system to select candidates for interviews we hand delivered our applications on the first day they were open.
So if you don't like the current RP's, or housing do you just pack up and go home or do you raise the subject so that it can be addressed, my post is aimed at getting further evidence of others in the same situation so we can maybe convince the AOA and the company this is an issue.
Thanks for the PMs please keep them coming.
Last edited by flyingkiwi; 8th Jan 2012 at 12:27.
my post is aimed at getting further evidence of others in the same situation so we can maybe convince the AOA and the company this is an issue.
If you did convince the company that it is an issue, what is the solution?
i.e.
What is the next step, and the step after that?
What do you want the company to do with regards to the HK Schooling system?
(not having a go if you're trying to read tone into this post, am I very interested in this subject)
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Good question,
There are a number of issues, the ESF was always the affordable choice ie you were always certain of getting into the likes of Kowloon junior (this school being in our zone, to date we are 430 on the list, their are 90 siblings this year to be placed at KJS for 160 slots) , it is 90% covered with no capital fees or debenture. Now this choice is closed unless lucky enough to be selected for an interview one has to look at either paying a 400000 debenture for the likes of discovery college(non refundable) or go to a school with high fees and a capital levy on top of the fees.(Cx don't include capital levies in there fees.)
Possible solution options
Provide 90% for any school as the choice of Esf has been taken away
Include capital levies in the 90%
If the school offers a refundable debenture then provide an interest only loan.
If the school offers a non refundable debenture, then offer an interest free loan for full amount not just the current 30k,
This would allow people to look at other options out of ESF system.
There are a number of issues, the ESF was always the affordable choice ie you were always certain of getting into the likes of Kowloon junior (this school being in our zone, to date we are 430 on the list, their are 90 siblings this year to be placed at KJS for 160 slots) , it is 90% covered with no capital fees or debenture. Now this choice is closed unless lucky enough to be selected for an interview one has to look at either paying a 400000 debenture for the likes of discovery college(non refundable) or go to a school with high fees and a capital levy on top of the fees.(Cx don't include capital levies in there fees.)
Possible solution options
Provide 90% for any school as the choice of Esf has been taken away
Include capital levies in the 90%
If the school offers a refundable debenture then provide an interest only loan.
If the school offers a non refundable debenture, then offer an interest free loan for full amount not just the current 30k,
This would allow people to look at other options out of ESF system.
Last edited by flyingkiwi; 8th Jan 2012 at 22:20.
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Flyingkiwi
this school being in our zone, to date we are 430 on the list, their are 90 siblings this year to be placed at KJS for 160 slots
This one should be "there".
Ironic that the thread on schooling shows that nobody knows the difference between "there" and "their".
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If you want to reproduce, how about you take care of your kids' education yourself, just like everyone else has to? I don't see why it is the company's or the AOA's responsibility to ensure your descendents receive the expensive and private education of your liking.
The company has a policy with good and bad points, just like all their policies, that may or may not suit your personal choices and circumstances. Deal with matters as per the policy or find another company with a policy that suits you. If you think a policy change is in order and a properly documented campaign for change has any hope of success, I suggest that Pprune is not the proper avenue.
Also, the more you reproduce, and the more you expect increasing sums of money from the company to fund your personal lifestyle decisions, the less profit the company will make. That means less money and profit for everyone else, particularly those who choose not to reproduce or do not have school-age kids in Hong Kong (approximately 50-75% of pilots?) so I am not convinced you would find much support to take more money from their pockets to put into yours.
The company has a policy with good and bad points, just like all their policies, that may or may not suit your personal choices and circumstances. Deal with matters as per the policy or find another company with a policy that suits you. If you think a policy change is in order and a properly documented campaign for change has any hope of success, I suggest that Pprune is not the proper avenue.
Also, the more you reproduce, and the more you expect increasing sums of money from the company to fund your personal lifestyle decisions, the less profit the company will make. That means less money and profit for everyone else, particularly those who choose not to reproduce or do not have school-age kids in Hong Kong (approximately 50-75% of pilots?) so I am not convinced you would find much support to take more money from their pockets to put into yours.
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I don't see why it is the company's or the AOA's responsibility to ensure your descendents receive the expensive and private education of your liking.
A shortage to school positions is going to present a real issue to CX families in the future. We are only just seeing the beginning.
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Iron skillet. I'm sorry to say so...your point is the most simplistic and dimmest point I have read on prune for a long time. I bet in your superficial life everything boil down to money! I really feel sorry for you and for your sad single life.
Last edited by Frogman1484; 9th Jan 2012 at 09:41.
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Strangely enough, when Airbus had problems with mobility of its own English speaking staff to Toulouse, they funded and built their own international school. So company intervention is not entirely without precedent. 
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Wow, who is this Iron Skillet guy? "Reproduce" man brother, get a life. They aren't reproductive cells, they are our kids. Every child we have is a gift from God. Deal with it.
"Bye Honey! I'm off to take our reproductions to School."
Butthead.
"Bye Honey! I'm off to take our reproductions to School."
Butthead.
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Well said Ash? Name calling and incorrect knowledge of science is rewarded with compliments?
1. All plants and animals reproduce. It's not rocket science, or a gift from whichever of the 2000+ gods man has created: It's just evolution. (Before anyone starts this again, any opposing personal opinion about evolution is as invalid and irrelevant as your opinion about gravity, atomic structure and heliocentrism, etc.)
2. Assumptions and opinions about my single vs. married status, reproductive history and reproductive capability are also irrelevant.
3. Were all child-free people living "superficial" lives until they reproduced, or after they discovered they were unable to reproduce? Your own life before kids, or if your kids died, or if you can't have any, had/has no value to you or others around you?
4. Is it only through reproduction that someone's life is elevated in value from such "superficial" lack of meaning as those who have not reproduced?
5. Yes, money can buy happiness: It buys shelter, nutrition, health care, entertainment and security. And yes, more money can buy more happiness, if the things you need and/or want for happiness cost money, and they all do. Note that I said "can buy happiness" which does not equal "will buy happiness." Conversely, a lack of money cannot buy happiness. I believe this thread contains several dollar amounts and the parents' concern over the cost of schooling.
6. Yes, my point was very simple: If you want to raise new humans, that is each person's choice and their responsibility. As a society, we have agreed to all share the financial burden of your choice to a large extent already. The company does provide some assistance at great cost that many do not benefit from in other ways, and in fact accept a financial burden in taxation and reduced profits. Choosing to leave your country (for money, incidentally...) and its social support network is also each individual's choice. Some relief is made available by the company, some is not. I say: Deal with it.
7. If the company has problems getting and retaining employees because of this issue, they will do something about it, as they do with housing in HKG (whichever deal, if it's enough for their plans, not yours).
8. Yes, like most with common sense, I am aware that reproductive cells are not kids, and that kids are not reproductive cells (other than before/at conception), but pairing up males and females to create new humans is certainly called reproduction (online dictionaries are available). Despite your apparent confusion and lack of scientific comprehension, even reproduced humans aren't any more of a gift from god (whichever you like to imagine) than the horse's or sparrow's or worm's or lobster's offspring (bacteria too!), no matter how much you love and want and enjoy your kids.
9. Are all the young soldiers coming home without genitals, and other victims of violence, disease or medical issues, also going to be called "Tools" and "Buttheads" and "superficial" by you guys, since they "obviously can't reproduce?"
Sounds to me like a whole bunch of people shouldn't be too proud of reproducing their genetic traits and are probably raising an entitled and mean generation of science deniers.
So, back to the school system and education allowance thing now?
1. All plants and animals reproduce. It's not rocket science, or a gift from whichever of the 2000+ gods man has created: It's just evolution. (Before anyone starts this again, any opposing personal opinion about evolution is as invalid and irrelevant as your opinion about gravity, atomic structure and heliocentrism, etc.)
2. Assumptions and opinions about my single vs. married status, reproductive history and reproductive capability are also irrelevant.
3. Were all child-free people living "superficial" lives until they reproduced, or after they discovered they were unable to reproduce? Your own life before kids, or if your kids died, or if you can't have any, had/has no value to you or others around you?
4. Is it only through reproduction that someone's life is elevated in value from such "superficial" lack of meaning as those who have not reproduced?
5. Yes, money can buy happiness: It buys shelter, nutrition, health care, entertainment and security. And yes, more money can buy more happiness, if the things you need and/or want for happiness cost money, and they all do. Note that I said "can buy happiness" which does not equal "will buy happiness." Conversely, a lack of money cannot buy happiness. I believe this thread contains several dollar amounts and the parents' concern over the cost of schooling.
6. Yes, my point was very simple: If you want to raise new humans, that is each person's choice and their responsibility. As a society, we have agreed to all share the financial burden of your choice to a large extent already. The company does provide some assistance at great cost that many do not benefit from in other ways, and in fact accept a financial burden in taxation and reduced profits. Choosing to leave your country (for money, incidentally...) and its social support network is also each individual's choice. Some relief is made available by the company, some is not. I say: Deal with it.
7. If the company has problems getting and retaining employees because of this issue, they will do something about it, as they do with housing in HKG (whichever deal, if it's enough for their plans, not yours).
8. Yes, like most with common sense, I am aware that reproductive cells are not kids, and that kids are not reproductive cells (other than before/at conception), but pairing up males and females to create new humans is certainly called reproduction (online dictionaries are available). Despite your apparent confusion and lack of scientific comprehension, even reproduced humans aren't any more of a gift from god (whichever you like to imagine) than the horse's or sparrow's or worm's or lobster's offspring (bacteria too!), no matter how much you love and want and enjoy your kids.
9. Are all the young soldiers coming home without genitals, and other victims of violence, disease or medical issues, also going to be called "Tools" and "Buttheads" and "superficial" by you guys, since they "obviously can't reproduce?"
Sounds to me like a whole bunch of people shouldn't be too proud of reproducing their genetic traits and are probably raising an entitled and mean generation of science deniers.
So, back to the school system and education allowance thing now?
Last edited by Iron Skillet; 9th Jan 2012 at 14:31.
"Reproduce" man brother, get a life. They aren't reproductive cells, they are our kids. Every child we have is a gift from God.
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Some examples
Fees divided by 12 not 10 as some school pay schedules are.
Aussie school
Fees $97500 per year (to which you will pay $24375 per year plus tax) (75% sub)
Yearly Levy $13500 (no subsidy, non-refundable)
Bus from lantau area $3000 per month ($36000 per year NO subsidy)
Total $6156.25 per child per month plus the tax of your fees
ESF primaries except Renaissance and Discovery collage as they have higher fees. (The preferred road by many due to the cost)
Fees $63000 per year (to which you pay $6300.00 plus tax per year) (90% sub)
Bus from lantau to KJS for an example $1400.00 per month (16800 per year No subsidy)
Total $1925.00 per month plus the tax of your fees
plus
Refundable capital levy of $25000 one off
Harrow
Fees $125000 per year (to which you pay $31250 per year plus tax) (75% sub)
Yearly Levy $50000 (no subsidy, non-refundable)
Bus from Lantau $1400 per month (16800 per year No subsidy)
Total $8170.00 per month plus the tax of your fees
Now here are more points
Point 1-
The current CX education allowance could be reviewed because of the following
Getting an interview at a 90 per cent subsidized school is very difficult (The preferred road by many due to the cost)
Some more examples
800 applications at Renaissance College for 160 spots
All ESF primary 1 combined not including Renaissance or Discovery - 2300 applications for 1020 spots for 2012
Point 2-
The following would be fair to many but probably not those already in the ESF and as turnandburn pointed out they will be the ones who get there subsidy decreased, should the company reduce the 90 percent.
Make the subsidy the same across the board
Include the yearly levies as a fee
To quote you turnandburn “You may open a can of worms and get offered less in the long term. Everything I have seen from them in the past has reduced benefits over time. An example change the system to cover all schools but only 80%”
You could just tell us all what school system your kids are in and then give us an account of what you did to get there, one application or did you apply to many, did you educate them in the right pre-school perhaps?, maybe give us all some insightful knowledge.
Point 3 –
In this current climate, education is one of the most stress full components to living in Hong Kong for families and the CX education allowance was negotiated many years ago. (If you know when I would like to know)
However TIMES HAVE CHANGED
Iron Skillet - I would like to quote you on another part of the forum
“the AOA takes years to send a rarely-effective email about anything”
This gets to my 4th point – I have had a pm from an AOA GC asking me to submit our research, which I want to do.
The AOA have other issues to deal with and like the PM said any research we have done is greatly appreciated. I am curious have you got off your A… and assisted the AOA with ideas about their ineffective emailing or do you just pay your fees and then get pissed off when it does not go your way.
I think I have already used this phase - getting further evidence of others in the same situation is what I am aiming to achieve, this is quite useful when something is challenged such as education, your housing, taxes All of these are benefits of your contract but sometimes a review can make the difference and to many an education review maybe needed.
Fees divided by 12 not 10 as some school pay schedules are.
Aussie school
Fees $97500 per year (to which you will pay $24375 per year plus tax) (75% sub)
Yearly Levy $13500 (no subsidy, non-refundable)
Bus from lantau area $3000 per month ($36000 per year NO subsidy)
Total $6156.25 per child per month plus the tax of your fees
ESF primaries except Renaissance and Discovery collage as they have higher fees. (The preferred road by many due to the cost)
Fees $63000 per year (to which you pay $6300.00 plus tax per year) (90% sub)
Bus from lantau to KJS for an example $1400.00 per month (16800 per year No subsidy)
Total $1925.00 per month plus the tax of your fees
plus
Refundable capital levy of $25000 one off
Harrow
Fees $125000 per year (to which you pay $31250 per year plus tax) (75% sub)
Yearly Levy $50000 (no subsidy, non-refundable)
Bus from Lantau $1400 per month (16800 per year No subsidy)
Total $8170.00 per month plus the tax of your fees
Now here are more points
Point 1-
The current CX education allowance could be reviewed because of the following
Getting an interview at a 90 per cent subsidized school is very difficult (The preferred road by many due to the cost)
Some more examples
800 applications at Renaissance College for 160 spots
All ESF primary 1 combined not including Renaissance or Discovery - 2300 applications for 1020 spots for 2012
Point 2-
The following would be fair to many but probably not those already in the ESF and as turnandburn pointed out they will be the ones who get there subsidy decreased, should the company reduce the 90 percent.
Make the subsidy the same across the board
Include the yearly levies as a fee
To quote you turnandburn “You may open a can of worms and get offered less in the long term. Everything I have seen from them in the past has reduced benefits over time. An example change the system to cover all schools but only 80%”
You could just tell us all what school system your kids are in and then give us an account of what you did to get there, one application or did you apply to many, did you educate them in the right pre-school perhaps?, maybe give us all some insightful knowledge.
Point 3 –
In this current climate, education is one of the most stress full components to living in Hong Kong for families and the CX education allowance was negotiated many years ago. (If you know when I would like to know)
However TIMES HAVE CHANGED
Iron Skillet - I would like to quote you on another part of the forum
“the AOA takes years to send a rarely-effective email about anything”
This gets to my 4th point – I have had a pm from an AOA GC asking me to submit our research, which I want to do.
The AOA have other issues to deal with and like the PM said any research we have done is greatly appreciated. I am curious have you got off your A… and assisted the AOA with ideas about their ineffective emailing or do you just pay your fees and then get pissed off when it does not go your way.
I think I have already used this phase - getting further evidence of others in the same situation is what I am aiming to achieve, this is quite useful when something is challenged such as education, your housing, taxes All of these are benefits of your contract but sometimes a review can make the difference and to many an education review maybe needed.
Last edited by flyingkiwi; 9th Jan 2012 at 13:28.