2012-13 Leave allocation
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
From: Hong K ong
Complain bitch etc but don't change the system!!
The system works well!!! The only problem is CX
1) Don't allocate enough slots throughout the year. (but this has nothing to do with the system)
2) They work stack and as a result we should now get 3hrs credit per day!
Points - Are the best way! It allows more junior crew to build up points within 5yrs to enable to compete with others esp when they young and have kids.
It allows "smart" senior guys (whom have built points) to have a high chance of getting leave when they want.
I flew with a very senior Cpt whom was bitching about the system that needs to be changed into a "seniority based", as he has been here 20+ yrs and cannot get school holidays to enjoy being with his "2nd" family!
I then discussed points system - He did not even after 20yrs fully understand how it all works and as a result has not built sufficient points.
I almost lost it but kept it to myself. Since many older guys just don't plan correctly and end up playing the Seniority game to fix the wrongs of there past!
(Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of young guys without a clue as well)
The main point is if you don't understand the system - Don't complaint!
Educate yourselves! Then stick together "somehow, god help us" and try change the important things. Like Credit hrs, work stacking, and crew shortage! and the millions of other outstanding things..
And if you fatigued, stressed and your family does not know you and your wife threatens divorce etc. Go see the CX Doc and get a months off and create your own leave slot!
1) Don't allocate enough slots throughout the year. (but this has nothing to do with the system)
2) They work stack and as a result we should now get 3hrs credit per day!
Points - Are the best way! It allows more junior crew to build up points within 5yrs to enable to compete with others esp when they young and have kids.
It allows "smart" senior guys (whom have built points) to have a high chance of getting leave when they want.
I flew with a very senior Cpt whom was bitching about the system that needs to be changed into a "seniority based", as he has been here 20+ yrs and cannot get school holidays to enjoy being with his "2nd" family!
I then discussed points system - He did not even after 20yrs fully understand how it all works and as a result has not built sufficient points.
I almost lost it but kept it to myself. Since many older guys just don't plan correctly and end up playing the Seniority game to fix the wrongs of there past!
(Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of young guys without a clue as well)
The main point is if you don't understand the system - Don't complaint!
Educate yourselves! Then stick together "somehow, god help us" and try change the important things. Like Credit hrs, work stacking, and crew shortage! and the millions of other outstanding things..
And if you fatigued, stressed and your family does not know you and your wife threatens divorce etc. Go see the CX Doc and get a months off and create your own leave slot!
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 51
Likes: 1
From: London
Missing the Point
The Leave system is seriously flawed and has been since its inception.
A projection forward from day one through the term of a normal career reveals that an officer joining CX and following the expected path would, with a family, end up with a significant points deficit and hence, no 'choice' leave, ever!
Since the majority of us are still in the halcyon days of our youth, viewing the future in much the same way as crew control ie. about 12 hours in advance, we have yet to identify this as a significant problem.
But hey! that's the system....
What about the real issue...
CX is, probably, breaching it's obligations under the AOC requirements document which requires them to ensure sufficient crews are available for their planned operations.
The Company has a contractual (not beneficial) obligation to provide each officer with their annual leave entitlement and, looking at the pool and reading the comments posted above it is clear that this responsibility is being ignored; possibly to the extent that the Company is in breach of contract.
At the very least, is it not time to ensure that when the annual leave bid opens, the total commitment for the coming years' leave is available for bidding? 'Pool' activity would then be confined to its original intent, that of availing swaps between officers with undesirable allocations. Not as used now, to sort out GMA's incompetence.
Presently rostering and leave are a shambles and it's my expectation that 2012 will be a watershed. PRA's will abound. Fatigue and stress levels will peak and the resulting sickness levels will lead to massive roster disruptions, further exacerbating an already intolerable situation.
Happy New Year!
SR
A projection forward from day one through the term of a normal career reveals that an officer joining CX and following the expected path would, with a family, end up with a significant points deficit and hence, no 'choice' leave, ever!
Since the majority of us are still in the halcyon days of our youth, viewing the future in much the same way as crew control ie. about 12 hours in advance, we have yet to identify this as a significant problem.
But hey! that's the system....
What about the real issue...
CX is, probably, breaching it's obligations under the AOC requirements document which requires them to ensure sufficient crews are available for their planned operations.
The Company has a contractual (not beneficial) obligation to provide each officer with their annual leave entitlement and, looking at the pool and reading the comments posted above it is clear that this responsibility is being ignored; possibly to the extent that the Company is in breach of contract.
At the very least, is it not time to ensure that when the annual leave bid opens, the total commitment for the coming years' leave is available for bidding? 'Pool' activity would then be confined to its original intent, that of availing swaps between officers with undesirable allocations. Not as used now, to sort out GMA's incompetence.
Presently rostering and leave are a shambles and it's my expectation that 2012 will be a watershed. PRA's will abound. Fatigue and stress levels will peak and the resulting sickness levels will lead to massive roster disruptions, further exacerbating an already intolerable situation.
Happy New Year!
SR
Last edited by Silent Running; 31st December 2011 at 23:44.
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 67
Likes: 1
From: Canada
Joker Leave
What really hacks me off about the leave system is this Joker Leave. Why should STC get priority requesting leave? Go ahead and pay them more to do their jobs, but I object to taking away leave from everyone else so they can get what they want. No wonder there are no good slots left when the plebes finally get a chance to bid.
I don't begrudge them doing the STC job, just really disagree with them getting all the good leave as compensation.
I don't begrudge them doing the STC job, just really disagree with them getting all the good leave as compensation.
Joined: Nov 2007
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
From: hong kong
I agree that the system of STC's getting priority is wrong. Basically, the company is using our leave system to help compensate for a crappy roster for these guys. Using the leave system rather than the cheque book. Not the fault of the STC's.
Joined: Jul 2007
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 1,953
Likes: 172
From: with the ex-CX pond scum (a zoologist was once head of Flight Ops)
I have little sympathy for STC's and trainers. They have put their hands up for the position, and what's more, they will be training and checking the iKids, who are undercutting existing conditions of service...and so the eternal cycle continues.
If they don't like their 'crappy rosters', they can always go back to the line.
If they don't like their 'crappy rosters', they can always go back to the line.
Joined: Nov 2007
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
From: hong kong
Some (maybe not enough) of the training department were the staunchest of supporters for the AOA and CPU during the hard times. Divide and rule - reject the "trainers", is to play right into the management theme. Not too sure how we would proceed without any training department. Don't forget, we were keen to fill the boots of all the 49ers whilst asking outsiders to respect a recruitment ban. Banned the "scabs" , who accepted employment after the ban, from joining the AOA. We have only our collective stupity to blame.
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 264
Likes: 0
From: Cupboard
That's a great idea, and you're right.
But until "we" come up with a long list of what "they" should do that will make us happy, and "we" get together and agree to do something together to gain improvements from "them", "they" won't do anything for "us" just because we want it.
But until "we" come up with a long list of what "they" should do that will make us happy, and "we" get together and agree to do something together to gain improvements from "them", "they" won't do anything for "us" just because we want it.
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
From: ...where CrewControl won't find me!
Likewise. I got none of my requests, and the pool shows no slots available for the rest of the year! And now those clowns start giving me one week chunks in their usual fashion, past pool closure time, so I can' t give it back.
I'm sure they will also end my tour on a Sunday, to have me back working on Monday, effectively using my leave as G-days. They did it before.
Guys, this is calling for serious self-defense, if you know what I mean. They are abusing the system!
I'm sure they will also end my tour on a Sunday, to have me back working on Monday, effectively using my leave as G-days. They did it before.
Guys, this is calling for serious self-defense, if you know what I mean. They are abusing the system!
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: HKG
A couple of tweaks
When I was a lowly SO in HKG I requested leave to earn maximum points (no kids so leave dates not important. Back then there were also plenty of slots available. I don't want to loose those points to a seniority based system which would rewards those who have pissed their points away in the past.
It is CRAP that STCs get first shot at the leave slots. The company screws the rank and file to keep these company men happy.
It is CRAP that leave slots are allocated by base area. For those of us with kids school holidays become important. With a range of base areas and therefore a range of school dates, if slots were allocated by rank and fleet (not base area), more of us would get the leave we want. At the end of a ULH flight a crew member either goes home or to a company paid hotel. Merging the leave areas would not cost the company any more.
If you are allocated leave in a period which would earn you points, one should get those points. Therefore if the company is forcing you to take leave in a undesirable period at least you earn points so in due course your leave requests should be successful.
It is CRAP that STCs get first shot at the leave slots. The company screws the rank and file to keep these company men happy.
It is CRAP that leave slots are allocated by base area. For those of us with kids school holidays become important. With a range of base areas and therefore a range of school dates, if slots were allocated by rank and fleet (not base area), more of us would get the leave we want. At the end of a ULH flight a crew member either goes home or to a company paid hotel. Merging the leave areas would not cost the company any more.
If you are allocated leave in a period which would earn you points, one should get those points. Therefore if the company is forcing you to take leave in a undesirable period at least you earn points so in due course your leave requests should be successful.
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
From: UK
It doesn't matter what system you use (points or seniority), the problem is there aren't enough slots. Take a look at the availability. There's nothing this summer in my rank and I believe its the same story across the board.
The company has not released the slots because it can't spare the pilots. Over tasking with no end in sight. Simple as that. You could have a thousand points and it wouldn't change a thing. No slots = no chance.
The company has not released the slots because it can't spare the pilots. Over tasking with no end in sight. Simple as that. You could have a thousand points and it wouldn't change a thing. No slots = no chance.
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
From: USA
Dan,
I remember him too well. I was one of the suckers who fell for his drivel and now find myself fighting for school holiday scraps. By the time I manage to get my points back to a reasonable level they probably will have changed the system!
I remember him too well. I was one of the suckers who fell for his drivel and now find myself fighting for school holiday scraps. By the time I manage to get my points back to a reasonable level they probably will have changed the system!
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
From: UK
CXline guy:
and then:
You were fortunate enough to join the company when you didn't have kids and had the opportunity to build up points BEFORE you had children. A sensible move. However, that doesn't mean that those of us who joined the company having already had children 'pissed away our points'. School holidays are just as important to us as they are to you.
However, your point about being allocated crap leave and not receiving the appropriate points is an entirely fair one. My previous companies have always awarded points when allocating leave this way.
I don't expect to get every single week that I ask for - that's part of the job - but it is not unreasonable to at least have a couple of weeks off in the summer with my kids. I don't care when in the summer, just give me a 2 week block somewhere in the 6 weeks.
And while we're on the subject, what is the point of 'provisional' leave? Nothing can be booked and the company can change it at the drop of a hat.
CXline guy:
I don't want to loose (sic) those points to a seniority based system which would rewards those who have pissed their points away in the past.
I don't want to loose (sic) those points to a seniority based system which would rewards those who have pissed their points away in the past.
For those of us with kids school holidays become important.
However, your point about being allocated crap leave and not receiving the appropriate points is an entirely fair one. My previous companies have always awarded points when allocating leave this way.
I don't expect to get every single week that I ask for - that's part of the job - but it is not unreasonable to at least have a couple of weeks off in the summer with my kids. I don't care when in the summer, just give me a 2 week block somewhere in the 6 weeks.
And while we're on the subject, what is the point of 'provisional' leave? Nothing can be booked and the company can change it at the drop of a hat.
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 256
Likes: 1
From: Everywhere
So Dendee those leave slots you wanted released from planning finally arrived but too late for the first leave pool. I know why not make out there was a computer glitch and reopen the pool so you can get rid of them eh!!
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 51
Likes: 1
From: London
Catastrophe Theory
Word is that only 70% of annual leave entitlement has been released to the system for bidding.
'Planning' (sic) and management meanwhile want see how far they can stretch the rubber band by plundering all those wasteful G and O days on the roster.
The good news is that you probably wont have to wait long for the catastrophic rebound when the band snaps!
Just don't stand in the way in case you get caught in the backlash.
'Planning' (sic) and management meanwhile want see how far they can stretch the rubber band by plundering all those wasteful G and O days on the roster.
The good news is that you probably wont have to wait long for the catastrophic rebound when the band snaps!
Just don't stand in the way in case you get caught in the backlash.