CX Sponsoring Illegal Pilots
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CX Sponsoring Illegal Pilots
The flight department has finally discovered that most of the Canadians based in the US have been working there illegally for years and are trying to make things right with the US government.
They are now paying $50k USD per Canadian captain to get them US visas that will eventually lead to them getting green-cards.
Another example of inequity amongst the pilot group, and lack of respect for US employment law. I wonder how long this will be allowed to go on before the US pilots revolt and start sending off emails to US ALPA, ICE, government officials, etc., about foreign workers being brought-in to take American jobs??
Discuss..
They are now paying $50k USD per Canadian captain to get them US visas that will eventually lead to them getting green-cards.
Another example of inequity amongst the pilot group, and lack of respect for US employment law. I wonder how long this will be allowed to go on before the US pilots revolt and start sending off emails to US ALPA, ICE, government officials, etc., about foreign workers being brought-in to take American jobs??
Discuss..
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Soooo, i'm a Canadian captain based in Canada. Some of my fellow Canadian colleagues are going to be sponsored by CX to the rare and valuable US Green Card...? Ok, so, I would like that same benefit thanks. I am sure the company is keen on being seen to be fair. Please Mr. L, where can I pick up my application paperwork? And of course, seniority will be honoured in this case as usual....right? A few other questions to follow....
(...um, how do the REAL Americans in the company feel about the precious US base slots being filled for many many years by Canadians....and thereby keeping those properly entitled out of their own county's base....? just wondering...)
(...um, how do the REAL Americans in the company feel about the precious US base slots being filled for many many years by Canadians....and thereby keeping those properly entitled out of their own county's base....? just wondering...)
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Employment Without a Work Permit
The following are additional examples of employment in which a foreign national may engage within Canada without the requirement of a work permit:
as a member of a crew who is employed by a foreign company aboard a means of transportation that
(i) is foreign-owned and not registered in Canada, and
(ii) is engaged primarily in international transportation;
The following are additional examples of employment in which a foreign national may engage within Canada without the requirement of a work permit:
as a member of a crew who is employed by a foreign company aboard a means of transportation that
(i) is foreign-owned and not registered in Canada, and
(ii) is engaged primarily in international transportation;
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Hi Moose
The statute you're quoting is aboot irregular employment, as in aircrew in transit and so on, not permanent employment on a base, resident or non-resident in Canada. I am pretty sure that the intent of the law wrt crew in transit is definitive, eh.
I guess you could always claim "natural person" status and unencumbered by national laws.
Oh yes, that doesn't work.
The statute you're quoting is aboot irregular employment, as in aircrew in transit and so on, not permanent employment on a base, resident or non-resident in Canada. I am pretty sure that the intent of the law wrt crew in transit is definitive, eh.
I guess you could always claim "natural person" status and unencumbered by national laws.
Oh yes, that doesn't work.
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Hey Mooseflyer
The law does not apply. You are not employed by a foreign employer but rather a Canadian, the onshored CX, as far as the Canadian authorities are concerned. Why do you need a Canadian SIN, had to fill out a T1 and receive T4's? Why are you responsible to pay CPP and EI? Don't be confused with how CX onshored, because this is causing all the problems at the moment. The only reason why this is not an issue at the moment is that the Canadian immigration authorities are not aware that these American individuals are employed in Canada as the CRA does not forward this information to them.
Apple
Where did you hear the 50k per captain for a visa? The number I have heard is not even 5% of your claim!
The law does not apply. You are not employed by a foreign employer but rather a Canadian, the onshored CX, as far as the Canadian authorities are concerned. Why do you need a Canadian SIN, had to fill out a T1 and receive T4's? Why are you responsible to pay CPP and EI? Don't be confused with how CX onshored, because this is causing all the problems at the moment. The only reason why this is not an issue at the moment is that the Canadian immigration authorities are not aware that these American individuals are employed in Canada as the CRA does not forward this information to them.
Apple
Where did you hear the 50k per captain for a visa? The number I have heard is not even 5% of your claim!
Last edited by GTC58; 5th Apr 2011 at 10:47.
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I read the title of the thread and thought you were talking about Mexicans....
Sponsoring Canadians in US bases...pisses me off. I'd love be based in Toronto and fly the 777. But... CAN NOT since I am US Citizen, and YES I have the Seniority.. Fair? I think NOT.
It is strange since there are a bunch of DEFO's (US and junior to me) that are in Toronto... it is all a mess.. Seniority means NADA...CX does as it wants, when it wants, how it wants..PERIOD.
Sponsoring Canadians in US bases...pisses me off. I'd love be based in Toronto and fly the 777. But... CAN NOT since I am US Citizen, and YES I have the Seniority.. Fair? I think NOT.
It is strange since there are a bunch of DEFO's (US and junior to me) that are in Toronto... it is all a mess.. Seniority means NADA...CX does as it wants, when it wants, how it wants..PERIOD.
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They are now paying $50k USD per Canadian captain to get them US visas that will eventually lead to them getting green-cards.
I thought to keep a green card one has to reside in the U.S. I doubt most of the Canadians are willing to move their families south.
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Haha, yea, you're right....why would you want to live in Phoenix when you could live in Edmonton (in January!). Seriously, CX lurches from one fiasco to the next, and all the time messing up the lives and finances of it's own employees. The ONLY requirement is to cover CX's own ass. When are we going to make a stand against ALL the gross violations of our career conditions, and the ongoing assault against our financial security. As it stands now, I am expected to pay full tax in both Canada AND HK. What little gem will the basings office throw our way next?
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Haha, yea, you're right....why would you want to live in Phoenix when you could live in Edmonton (in January!).
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Why can't they just move to U.S. guys to U.S. and Canadian back to Canada...I know some might need to change fleet..but the training cost is lot less than what they are trying to do....
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HDFU CX is a prick of airline to work for, if you decide to work for it expect 3rd world working conditions it's in China!
I'm afraid aviation is supply and demand now, don't expect anything more from CX it's no longer a Legacy carrier.
I'm afraid aviation is supply and demand now, don't expect anything more from CX it's no longer a Legacy carrier.
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you want my base!
This is the first time I've posted here after observing this forum for years. I just couldn't let this one fly without comment. First off we need to distill this discussion down to what all the complaints directed at the Canadians is all about. This isn't about the legal issues or how the company could of set things up differently, this is about jealousy plain and simple.
Apple 314, how long have you been here? I've been here for 17 years and based in LAX for 11 and commuting to Canada. The company had me sign up for an ITIN an American tax payer identification number and I file along with every other Canadian based in the US every year based on a percent of time flown in US airspace and from there a tax exposure is determined, so go ahead and approach the gov authorities, sorry to disappoint you but it's already been done, I guess you won't be able to take any pleasure by exposing all of us (Illegal workers) and by the way you wouldn't be the first American to contact the authorities recently to pursue personal gain. In addition what has changed recently since you joined Apple 314, were these policies of allowing anybody on any base within Cathay's network not in effect when you joined and suddenly all these snowbacks have come down and taken your job, of course not, many of us were there long before you even heard of the name Cathay, you just don't like the conditions you joined under and are now having a hissy fit trying to get them changed and trying to screw me an my family for personal gain.
Before you start throwing numbers out (50K) due your homework and go talk to the basings manager the figure is 2500.00 usd but you we're close. If it makes you feel any better I'm a young captain and I'll have your coveted base for another 20 years. I've provided you with all the info you need to identify me so feel free to contact me or should I just wait to have your government official arrest me the next time I pass through immigration. This all seems to be a all to common theme on pprune, if you don't like the conditions you signed up for blame someone else for your poor decision making.
Apple 314, how long have you been here? I've been here for 17 years and based in LAX for 11 and commuting to Canada. The company had me sign up for an ITIN an American tax payer identification number and I file along with every other Canadian based in the US every year based on a percent of time flown in US airspace and from there a tax exposure is determined, so go ahead and approach the gov authorities, sorry to disappoint you but it's already been done, I guess you won't be able to take any pleasure by exposing all of us (Illegal workers) and by the way you wouldn't be the first American to contact the authorities recently to pursue personal gain. In addition what has changed recently since you joined Apple 314, were these policies of allowing anybody on any base within Cathay's network not in effect when you joined and suddenly all these snowbacks have come down and taken your job, of course not, many of us were there long before you even heard of the name Cathay, you just don't like the conditions you joined under and are now having a hissy fit trying to get them changed and trying to screw me an my family for personal gain.
Before you start throwing numbers out (50K) due your homework and go talk to the basings manager the figure is 2500.00 usd but you we're close. If it makes you feel any better I'm a young captain and I'll have your coveted base for another 20 years. I've provided you with all the info you need to identify me so feel free to contact me or should I just wait to have your government official arrest me the next time I pass through immigration. This all seems to be a all to common theme on pprune, if you don't like the conditions you signed up for blame someone else for your poor decision making.
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If you look into it a little further, there are criminal and monetary penalties if a Crew-member does not have a C-1 and D-1 Visa AS well as if the crew-member makes false statements to the immigration officer. With a green card, the Canadians will have to finally pay US tax. Maybe this will lead to triple taxation for them. It would be nice if these violators of law would be required to return to Hong Kong (both US citizens in Canada and Canadian citizens in the US) and the bases rebid in seniority order. That would solve everything.
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As with the Amsterdam base situation, I think, the company is doing the right thing, to make sure the Canadian guys can stay at their US bases. I'm a US citizen and possibly affected by this, but come on, there are more important moral issues at hand here. To do something by choice is not the same as being forced to.
The canadian guys took the bases when they were available to them and under the premise, that they will be able to commute to and from work. They have done absolutely nothing wrong.
Given that assurance, their families have adjusted their entire lives and to take that away -just because some government buerocrats changed their mind- is just plain wrong.
I would expect the company to do the same thing for me and my family if it was the other way around.
Some people on this forum are talking as if seniority is the "holy grail" of everything. It might be so for the initial bidding of a base, but once based, many other criteria come into play, seniority being just one of them.
That is how it works everywhere in the world - except the USA. Personally, I believe, the US style seniority system is nothing but a form of ponzi scheme, that has helped to create unprofitable Airlines, resulting in equal dissatisfaction amongst airline employees, passengers and shareholders alike.
A system with no winners, except the few with tenure at the top of the seniority lists.
The canadian guys took the bases when they were available to them and under the premise, that they will be able to commute to and from work. They have done absolutely nothing wrong.
Given that assurance, their families have adjusted their entire lives and to take that away -just because some government buerocrats changed their mind- is just plain wrong.
I would expect the company to do the same thing for me and my family if it was the other way around.
Some people on this forum are talking as if seniority is the "holy grail" of everything. It might be so for the initial bidding of a base, but once based, many other criteria come into play, seniority being just one of them.
That is how it works everywhere in the world - except the USA. Personally, I believe, the US style seniority system is nothing but a form of ponzi scheme, that has helped to create unprofitable Airlines, resulting in equal dissatisfaction amongst airline employees, passengers and shareholders alike.
A system with no winners, except the few with tenure at the top of the seniority lists.
Last edited by Avius; 6th Apr 2011 at 09:26.
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Any illegal being harbored at CX should be given the chance to return to HKG immediately, or find other employment. Then a massive new bid can take place throughout the system in order to rectify the current issue. Those senior enough to hold a base in their home country can certainly take any position available, and if an aircraft type change is required, use their joker. I guess then we would really be able to see how many Canadians are in US bases, and American's are in Canadian bases.
If you are telling me that those pilots violating immigration law throughout the system have done so without understanding the consequences, then I would respond to you that they should have read their contract and the basings agreement before bidding on a base. I realize these guys have families; so do I. Not only are they illegal, but they are not contributing to the tax base of the US government - something that those US citizens in HKG that want a base would be happy to do. Kind of like hiring a Mexican without a green-card as a nurse, when there are plenty of US citizen/green card holders that may be looking for a nursing job.
CX managers and CX are liable for harboring these employees as per the US immigration regulations. If they are not careful, some manager may be surprised when Swire does not come to bail them out; and some pilots may be surprised when the US government informs them that not only are they forbidden from entering the US and it's territories, but also that they owe $300k in back taxes, fines, and fees.
For those that are worried; look at the law, don't make excuses why you are special and can get around it. It's not going to be fun if you show up at work in the USA 5 hours before your flight, only to be informed that you are being deported.
If you are telling me that those pilots violating immigration law throughout the system have done so without understanding the consequences, then I would respond to you that they should have read their contract and the basings agreement before bidding on a base. I realize these guys have families; so do I. Not only are they illegal, but they are not contributing to the tax base of the US government - something that those US citizens in HKG that want a base would be happy to do. Kind of like hiring a Mexican without a green-card as a nurse, when there are plenty of US citizen/green card holders that may be looking for a nursing job.
CX managers and CX are liable for harboring these employees as per the US immigration regulations. If they are not careful, some manager may be surprised when Swire does not come to bail them out; and some pilots may be surprised when the US government informs them that not only are they forbidden from entering the US and it's territories, but also that they owe $300k in back taxes, fines, and fees.
For those that are worried; look at the law, don't make excuses why you are special and can get around it. It's not going to be fun if you show up at work in the USA 5 hours before your flight, only to be informed that you are being deported.
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If all the Canadian Captains would have to vacate their US bases and these 45 slots would be made available for bid, most would be not filled.
Most Americans at CX are not senior enough to hold a Passenger Command. Proof me wrong, but last time I checked there are not too many Americans with a seniority # in the high 900s. As we all know all new command positions are within seniority offered in Hong Kong. Only captains or when commenced the command course one is able to bid a base slot.
In reality this means that most of these US positions could not be filled if offered and these flights would be crewed with Hong Kong crews.
Plain and simple.
Most Americans at CX are not senior enough to hold a Passenger Command. Proof me wrong, but last time I checked there are not too many Americans with a seniority # in the high 900s. As we all know all new command positions are within seniority offered in Hong Kong. Only captains or when commenced the command course one is able to bid a base slot.
In reality this means that most of these US positions could not be filled if offered and these flights would be crewed with Hong Kong crews.
Plain and simple.