CX Sponsoring Illegal Pilots
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GTC,
Please tell me how you check who has what nationality to 'proof' you wrong on your statement that there would not be enough US pilots to hold US passenger commands? There are enough US FO's that are on BPP and extremely close to command to fill any gaps that may ensue in CX's bid to comply with the law. There also are enough FO's and possibly SO's waiting for a slot in certain bases around the US. There has been a lack of slots available for bid in the last few years in the US bases, and pent up demand remains.
Please tell me how you check who has what nationality to 'proof' you wrong on your statement that there would not be enough US pilots to hold US passenger commands? There are enough US FO's that are on BPP and extremely close to command to fill any gaps that may ensue in CX's bid to comply with the law. There also are enough FO's and possibly SO's waiting for a slot in certain bases around the US. There has been a lack of slots available for bid in the last few years in the US bases, and pent up demand remains.
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Airplaneridesfun
Just an educated guess, as CX was not hiring too many Americans until 8-9 years ago.
you said
My Basings agreement says the following:
Doesn't say anything about my base.
Anyways, your interpretation of the law is incorrect at least according to DL and CXs immigration lawyers. Presently it is absolutely legal to commute for Canadians to the US, employed by a foreign company, operating foreign aircraft. However, when a visa application will be made (like CX is doing now) and the INS would deny issuing a visa then it becomes for the Canadian individual illegal to be based in the US.
I don't understand where this sudden anger is coming from. Most of the Canadians are on their US bases for many years. Nothing will change with the visa application as these are for Canadians already on a US base.
The Americans working for the onshored CX Canada are actually illegals plus seem to be on the bottom of the seniority list and I recommend you try to write your posts not so confrontational as I can see some of my Canadian co-workers getting pi$$ed off and tipping off the Canadian authorities. That wouldn't be nice as we are all seem to get along on the line and in the bar without having any issues.
On a side note these Visa's are for Canadian nationals only, if you have another nationality you are out of luck.
Just an educated guess, as CX was not hiring too many Americans until 8-9 years ago.
you said
If you are telling me that those pilots violating immigration law throughout the system have done so without understanding the consequences, then I would respond to you that they should have read their contract and the basings agreement before bidding on a base.
16.5 Based Officers will be responsible for ensuring that they comply with any immigration and/or visa requirements of the relevant authorities in the Officers choice of residence although the Company will render Officers reasonable assistance wherever possible.
Anyways, your interpretation of the law is incorrect at least according to DL and CXs immigration lawyers. Presently it is absolutely legal to commute for Canadians to the US, employed by a foreign company, operating foreign aircraft. However, when a visa application will be made (like CX is doing now) and the INS would deny issuing a visa then it becomes for the Canadian individual illegal to be based in the US.
I don't understand where this sudden anger is coming from. Most of the Canadians are on their US bases for many years. Nothing will change with the visa application as these are for Canadians already on a US base.
The Americans working for the onshored CX Canada are actually illegals plus seem to be on the bottom of the seniority list and I recommend you try to write your posts not so confrontational as I can see some of my Canadian co-workers getting pi$$ed off and tipping off the Canadian authorities. That wouldn't be nice as we are all seem to get along on the line and in the bar without having any issues.
On a side note these Visa's are for Canadian nationals only, if you have another nationality you are out of luck.
Last edited by GTC58; 6th Apr 2011 at 16:51.
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airplaneridesrfun,
It seems you want to use a machete where a scalpel is more appropriate. I believe the goal should be to create as little as possible pain.
Sorry, if your personal agenda is being altered by this (so is mine) but as I said before, there are more important issues here. Seniority is not the only parameter here. In life sometimes you give and sometimes you get. Maybe it is now the time to give. Over the longer term, everybody will be happier.
Agree with GTC58, there is nothing illegal about commuting to the US for work, as CX is a non US company. It certainly did not appear illegal, when the guys took a base.
FedEx has a base in HKG, UPS a base in Germany and all these positions are filled with US guys. I don't see any Germans protesting and claiming entitlement to these jobs.
It seems you want to use a machete where a scalpel is more appropriate. I believe the goal should be to create as little as possible pain.
Sorry, if your personal agenda is being altered by this (so is mine) but as I said before, there are more important issues here. Seniority is not the only parameter here. In life sometimes you give and sometimes you get. Maybe it is now the time to give. Over the longer term, everybody will be happier.
Agree with GTC58, there is nothing illegal about commuting to the US for work, as CX is a non US company. It certainly did not appear illegal, when the guys took a base.
FedEx has a base in HKG, UPS a base in Germany and all these positions are filled with US guys. I don't see any Germans protesting and claiming entitlement to these jobs.
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Avius, your mention of Fedex having pilots in HK is a bit deceptive. The significant difference is that Fedex ONLY hires US citizens, thereby making the verifiable claim that due to US law they have to have those people flying their aircraft, no matter where based. CX however has already demonstrated a prima facie case that they can and have hired US citizens where needed. Therefore, to claim that the US based Canadians are 'essential' has already been undermined, as they have US citizens ready and able to do the job. An immigration court in the US would quickly see this argument.
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Air profit,
The last time I checked, HKG was not part of the United States, therefore US law is rather irrelevant.
Point is US pilots are based in many foreign countries, despite the availability of local pilots, thus taking local jobs. The policy to hire only US citizens is nothing more than protectionism.
The last time I checked, HKG was not part of the United States, therefore US law is rather irrelevant.
Point is US pilots are based in many foreign countries, despite the availability of local pilots, thus taking local jobs. The policy to hire only US citizens is nothing more than protectionism.
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Air Profit
The first visas are already approved. I guess the INS has a different view than you. You can complain all you want, but that will not change the outcome of the visa process.
The first visas are already approved. I guess the INS has a different view than you. You can complain all you want, but that will not change the outcome of the visa process.
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...that would also presume an outcome based on what US immigration was told during the application process. I do wonder if they were made aware that there are many US citizens ready to fill those slots other than a/c type issues to be resolved. It will be interesting to see how certain 'enquiries' of the process will work out over coming months.
ps. I really am waiting for a visa...so i'm hoping for the best...but a top $ immigration lawyer that I engaged tells me that this won't work. Time will tell...but I sure don't want to move my family to the US if it is only going to be unwound later....
ps. I really am waiting for a visa...so i'm hoping for the best...but a top $ immigration lawyer that I engaged tells me that this won't work. Time will tell...but I sure don't want to move my family to the US if it is only going to be unwound later....
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Air Profit
You have a point nobody knows how CX is spinning it. I don't think any FOs will be approved for a visa however talking to DL it sounded like captains are no problem.
If you don't think you get a visa are you ok with being forced back to Hong Kong?
You have a point nobody knows how CX is spinning it. I don't think any FOs will be approved for a visa however talking to DL it sounded like captains are no problem.
If you don't think you get a visa are you ok with being forced back to Hong Kong?
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First of all, there is not doubt that the Canadians have been knowingly working illegally in the US for years. Their regular place of business, where the majority, if not all of their work originates, is the US. When crossing the border, they are specifically prohibited from engaging in employment, which they chose to ignore. However they and the company try to justify it in their minds, it's still illegal, or why would they now be applying for, and paying alot or money for: WORK VISA'S.
Im sure the company hasn't provided US Immigration with the entire truth also. They are claiming that these captains are "essential" to the operation and that no other suitably qualified US citizen can do the job. Obviously a bold faced lie. If you think that because one or two have already got these visa approved that its a sure thing, you are mistaken. US Immigration is just a small insignificant pawn in this game. Do you think any Congressional Representatives know about this? Senators? Local media outlets looking for a story about the pillaging of American jobs to Canada? Think Customs and Border Control has any idea of foreigners coming in and out of the country under the radar to operate Large Airliners without proper documentation? Think ALPA lawyers would say its okay for foreign pilots to be flying out of a LAX base claiming that no American can do the job? Do the Teamsters know that US based Canadians without visas are operating internal flights: ANC-SFO-LAX, MIA-DFW, ATL-MIA, etc? What about the California State Tax Agency, who also claims a ~10% tax on World Wide Income for California based jobs? Ever reported to them with your tax waiver Sadde6?
Though it may seem otherwise, my anger is NOT directed at Canadians, it is against a morally corrupt company, that shows favoritism to some, and utter disregard to others. Just like you Sadde6, I have a family to look after. The company wont allow Americans to have a base anywhere else, but allow, promote, and now assist others to come onto the only base we are capable of getting. Just as you said, you got my base for the next 20 years. FO pay aint going to cut it that long. So just like you have to do right for your family, I must for mine.
The company AND the AOA(dont know why i still pay dues) have tried to keep this quiet and out of sight, for obvious reasons, but if we are to make this an equitable environment for ALL our pilots, then this cannot be allowed to go on. This isnt a vendetta against the Canadians, its a call for change and equality for the pilot group. For those senior who want the base, for those who would like to get a visa paid for and organized by the company, and also for my future. How many "exceptions" should be allowed? None. If so then everyone would claim a right to one and keep screwing each other.
So if you agree, then email your Congressman, your local news station, the AOA, the company, US Immigration, US ALPA, the Teamsters Union, California State Tax Agency, Obama, let them know how you feel about this issue. They all love a good cause...
(by the way, thanks for motivating me Sadde6, I was happy to just discuss this and vent a little on PPrune, but now you've inspired me. see you in LAX, if they open up the base that is)
Im sure the company hasn't provided US Immigration with the entire truth also. They are claiming that these captains are "essential" to the operation and that no other suitably qualified US citizen can do the job. Obviously a bold faced lie. If you think that because one or two have already got these visa approved that its a sure thing, you are mistaken. US Immigration is just a small insignificant pawn in this game. Do you think any Congressional Representatives know about this? Senators? Local media outlets looking for a story about the pillaging of American jobs to Canada? Think Customs and Border Control has any idea of foreigners coming in and out of the country under the radar to operate Large Airliners without proper documentation? Think ALPA lawyers would say its okay for foreign pilots to be flying out of a LAX base claiming that no American can do the job? Do the Teamsters know that US based Canadians without visas are operating internal flights: ANC-SFO-LAX, MIA-DFW, ATL-MIA, etc? What about the California State Tax Agency, who also claims a ~10% tax on World Wide Income for California based jobs? Ever reported to them with your tax waiver Sadde6?
Though it may seem otherwise, my anger is NOT directed at Canadians, it is against a morally corrupt company, that shows favoritism to some, and utter disregard to others. Just like you Sadde6, I have a family to look after. The company wont allow Americans to have a base anywhere else, but allow, promote, and now assist others to come onto the only base we are capable of getting. Just as you said, you got my base for the next 20 years. FO pay aint going to cut it that long. So just like you have to do right for your family, I must for mine.
The company AND the AOA(dont know why i still pay dues) have tried to keep this quiet and out of sight, for obvious reasons, but if we are to make this an equitable environment for ALL our pilots, then this cannot be allowed to go on. This isnt a vendetta against the Canadians, its a call for change and equality for the pilot group. For those senior who want the base, for those who would like to get a visa paid for and organized by the company, and also for my future. How many "exceptions" should be allowed? None. If so then everyone would claim a right to one and keep screwing each other.
So if you agree, then email your Congressman, your local news station, the AOA, the company, US Immigration, US ALPA, the Teamsters Union, California State Tax Agency, Obama, let them know how you feel about this issue. They all love a good cause...
(by the way, thanks for motivating me Sadde6, I was happy to just discuss this and vent a little on PPrune, but now you've inspired me. see you in LAX, if they open up the base that is)
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Apple 314,
So lets get this straight, you want to use every possible method conceivable to remove guys with 10+ years of seniority over you off a Base so that you can have it? What an absolute piece of #$@% you are!! Kinda like that other well known freighter weasel and his escapades.
You can be inspired all you want, it's unlikely you'd get through a Command anyway.
So lets get this straight, you want to use every possible method conceivable to remove guys with 10+ years of seniority over you off a Base so that you can have it? What an absolute piece of #$@% you are!! Kinda like that other well known freighter weasel and his escapades.
You can be inspired all you want, it's unlikely you'd get through a Command anyway.
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Let's put this in perspective a bit shall we. Imagine that the Sydney base was full of Americans....who the company is now going to get visa's for because the Aus govt has just said that they need to be documented. Then also imagine the Australians still stuck in HK are told that the base will remain full of Americans...and probably block the base slots for the next 10-20 years. No, I can't imagine that the Aussies would have a problem with that at all.
Right. Now why is it SO UNREASONABLE for most of us to think that this situation with the US base is a travesty??
Right. Now why is it SO UNREASONABLE for most of us to think that this situation with the US base is a travesty??
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I should add that the fact the US Govt has insisted on proper visas should be the point that the company says to those concerned that the gig is up. Time to go home, wherever that may be. If the US Govt has an issue with 'documentation', then basically it means they shouldn't have been there in the first place. Whether they have '10 years seniority' or not is irrelevant. How can ANYONE justify the company undermining the 'ownership' of a particular base slot against the interests of that country's own nationals. Imagine if they started doing that to other bases, there would be howls of protest. This issue is NOT going to go away quietly....I am sure of that.
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Apple
you said
If you go on the USCIS website and research the conditions attached to the L-1A visa you will see that
is not a requirement to receive the visa.
Don't forget you work for a foreign company.
you said
They are claiming that these captains are "essential" to the operation and that no other suitably qualified US citizen can do the job.
no other suitably qualified US citizen can do the job
Don't forget you work for a foreign company.
Playing Devils Advocate.
If we assume that guys are taken off bases at conflict with their nationality the next steps would be:_
1) Does CX declare a vacancy there, if not ( a possible surplus already) then no-one else will get the base until it is open again.
2) If a vacancy is announced it would be in seniority order and, if for a Captain ,he would have to have the appropriate citizenship. If no suitable Captain then it would have to be operated from HKG as a N/S.
There is no agreement for out of seniority commands to satisfy based Captain vacancies.
Personally, although I think seniority should be the final arbiter this thread is tainted by spite and vindictiveness which does not bode well for any consultations with CX.
If we assume that guys are taken off bases at conflict with their nationality the next steps would be:_
1) Does CX declare a vacancy there, if not ( a possible surplus already) then no-one else will get the base until it is open again.
2) If a vacancy is announced it would be in seniority order and, if for a Captain ,he would have to have the appropriate citizenship. If no suitable Captain then it would have to be operated from HKG as a N/S.
There is no agreement for out of seniority commands to satisfy based Captain vacancies.
Personally, although I think seniority should be the final arbiter this thread is tainted by spite and vindictiveness which does not bode well for any consultations with CX.
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No, it's not 'spite' and 'vindictiveness'. It's the fact that the company is once again playing fast and loose with the career expectations of a particular group of employees. The value of a base is a tangible thing, and to deliberately undermine the criteria of ONE base ONLY, in favour of a group of individuals against the reasonable expectations of those who by birth have the right and desire to be there is outrageous. As I said previously. I would like to be based in Sydney....so i'm sure it will be perfectly ok for the company to obtain a visa for me, and then I will block that slot from a HK based Aussie and his family for the next decade or so....? Seems fair doesn't it. Forget spite and vindictiveness.....how about just moral outrage? Good enough for you. I can assure you that this issue is going to be finding it's way to EVERY interested party until this CRAP is stopped dead in it's tracks. If you can't see the inherent unfairness in what's happening then you must be a Canadian based in the US.
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Tornado Ali
All these Canadians are on US bases for many years probably even before you got hired. What is changing you career expectations now with them getting visas???? Just curious .....
All these Canadians are on US bases for many years probably even before you got hired. What is changing you career expectations now with them getting visas???? Just curious .....
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The difference is prior to the NEW RULES, I had the opportunity to go and bid for ANY base, just like the Canadians are effectively still being allowed to do in the case of the USA. I no longer have the opportunity to bid on any other base, therefore my ONLY basings option is my HOME country....and that is now being LOCKED OUT by people that shouldn't be there UNDER THE NEW RULES. Not really that hard to understand....other than by Canadians who sense they have possibly won a lottery ticket.
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Another point: If I was an American on a Sydney base, and the Aus govt now came along and said only Aussies or documented workers allowed....it is highly likely CX would NOT go and get a visa for me. They are only trying to do this because they have a bigger problem on the US bases, because they allowed so many non-americans on the base. I don't think this issue will go quietly....as there are too many Americans who are being marginalised by this decision. Effectively, CX is helping a small group of employees 'steal' a very valuable asset from people who should rightfully have an expectation of moving themselves and their families back home. It would be nice to be able to have my children live near their grandparents back in Denver....but apparently CX thinks that not only should Canadians take up the Canadian bases....they should also lock up all the American ones too. Yea, I think i'll just roll over and let that happen without a fight. Letters and visits to certain politicians offices will be the order of the day going forward.