Forthcoming Book on The 49ers
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...can not believe that someone would actually publish this drivel!!
I expect they will keep on bloviating about the '49er saga' for the next twenty years.
They fought city hall and lost.
A predictable outcome, considering the location.
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411A - 8,464 posts
Ah! Dear 411A
Every time he posts, on whatever topic, I visualise a geriatric redneck lying back on a rocking-chair, on a verandah in an oxygen-starved part of Arizona with a 20-Gallon hat (10 Gallons would not be anywhere near enough) cowboy boots, blue jeans, a checked shirt, and, of course, chewing tobacco.
In addition, there would be a 1/15th scale model of a Tristar suspended from the verandah ceiling.
Mrs 411A? She left years ago; which explains why he has so much spare time to post his diatribes on PPRuNe.
Every time he posts, on whatever topic, I visualise a geriatric redneck lying back on a rocking-chair, on a verandah in an oxygen-starved part of Arizona with a 20-Gallon hat (10 Gallons would not be anywhere near enough) cowboy boots, blue jeans, a checked shirt, and, of course, chewing tobacco.
In addition, there would be a 1/15th scale model of a Tristar suspended from the verandah ceiling.
Mrs 411A? She left years ago; which explains why he has so much spare time to post his diatribes on PPRuNe.
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...on a verandah
Presently in central America, sipping bloody marys, smoking my trusty Havana, and for tomorrow, recurrent training (in the actual airplane) for our guys.
I can only LOL at the antics of the CX (especially the AOA) crowd...I suspect they couldn't come in out of the rain...if they tried.
Never mind trying to dictate to the company...that was tried before and 49...went away.
One then wonders...when will the next 49...go?
Was it somehow 'fair'?
Quite likely not, however, the company rules in HKG, or at least the courts seem to agree.
Throwing peanuts, anyone?
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Neptunus Rex, you got a few things wrong about 411A.
Firstly his missus is still alive but actually left him, his missus is actually his daughter, but since she left he now keeps a gimp in his basement !
Secondly, his checked shirt was ruined trying to wipe up the puddle of black oil pooling under his beloved three holer corroding away on a low humidity desert plain. He often leaves 'other' pudles underneath the old aircraft while he fantasizes about the good ol days. His only remaining shirt is actually a stained blue trucker's singlet. Recent untraviolet DNA testing of the mentioned singlet revealed sunstances that simply cannot be mentioned in a public forum.
Thirdly, he will not buy this book as he prefers to read books like 'Man and Beast' (rated x) and he likes to thumb through his EBay collection of old trident manuals while sitting in the outhouse.....
Firstly his missus is still alive but actually left him, his missus is actually his daughter, but since she left he now keeps a gimp in his basement !
Secondly, his checked shirt was ruined trying to wipe up the puddle of black oil pooling under his beloved three holer corroding away on a low humidity desert plain. He often leaves 'other' pudles underneath the old aircraft while he fantasizes about the good ol days. His only remaining shirt is actually a stained blue trucker's singlet. Recent untraviolet DNA testing of the mentioned singlet revealed sunstances that simply cannot be mentioned in a public forum.
Thirdly, he will not buy this book as he prefers to read books like 'Man and Beast' (rated x) and he likes to thumb through his EBay collection of old trident manuals while sitting in the outhouse.....
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411A
Like a connoisseur, when trying to determine the quality of a wine, will slosh a small amount in his mouth before spitting it out ...to those of us who have been here 15-20 years, your tone has a familiar ring to it. The arrogance is unmistakable.
You remind me of someone who, through nothing but blind luck, scores big in a rising housing market and then convinces himself it's because he's smart. You, sir, scored by joining in the late 70's or early 80's. But you were lucky, that's all.
Those of us, who were first officers in the late 80's /early 90's, and except for your type, had the pleasure of flying with some pretty spectacular guys. On the other hand, your type sold out your fellow pilots because you thought it would ingratiate you to your superiors. You poor fool…karma will take care of you.
Yes, we poor sods, while trying to stand against tyranny, may have lost countless lopsided battles in the courts of Hong Kong. But that will be an enduring legacy that will forever attest to our honour.
As for you…..
If you were a wine, I'd say you were a saucy GC or PH….or perhaps a perky little KB.
Like a connoisseur, when trying to determine the quality of a wine, will slosh a small amount in his mouth before spitting it out ...to those of us who have been here 15-20 years, your tone has a familiar ring to it. The arrogance is unmistakable.
You remind me of someone who, through nothing but blind luck, scores big in a rising housing market and then convinces himself it's because he's smart. You, sir, scored by joining in the late 70's or early 80's. But you were lucky, that's all.
Those of us, who were first officers in the late 80's /early 90's, and except for your type, had the pleasure of flying with some pretty spectacular guys. On the other hand, your type sold out your fellow pilots because you thought it would ingratiate you to your superiors. You poor fool…karma will take care of you.
Yes, we poor sods, while trying to stand against tyranny, may have lost countless lopsided battles in the courts of Hong Kong. But that will be an enduring legacy that will forever attest to our honour.
As for you…..
If you were a wine, I'd say you were a saucy GC or PH….or perhaps a perky little KB.
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food for thought
Raven,
Even as an outsider that has nothing to do with Cathay, I wholeheartedly agree. The fact that all battles in the courts of HKG against CX seem hopeless does not mean they should not be fought. What is not right is not right and should be acted against. Nothing ever got better on it's own. It does indeed attest to your and your colleagues honour. Keep on appealing and appealing until there is nowhere else to appeal. If we don't even have the illusion of justice anymore, what else is there left? The persona depicted in my nickname sold his soul to the devil. I'm glad to see that there are still righteous men and women amongst us that have not done the same.
faust
PS: Why does anyone waste their valuable time answering to 411A? After all, after 8.5 thousand posts, one should be able to conclude that this guy has a miserable existence and should not be taken seriously.
Even as an outsider that has nothing to do with Cathay, I wholeheartedly agree. The fact that all battles in the courts of HKG against CX seem hopeless does not mean they should not be fought. What is not right is not right and should be acted against. Nothing ever got better on it's own. It does indeed attest to your and your colleagues honour. Keep on appealing and appealing until there is nowhere else to appeal. If we don't even have the illusion of justice anymore, what else is there left? The persona depicted in my nickname sold his soul to the devil. I'm glad to see that there are still righteous men and women amongst us that have not done the same.
faust
PS: Why does anyone waste their valuable time answering to 411A? After all, after 8.5 thousand posts, one should be able to conclude that this guy has a miserable existence and should not be taken seriously.
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Might help if you knew that 411A has never worked for CX!
The problem now with many of the older CX FD crew is that they have a severe sense of entitlement, and desire the way things were in CX...long ago.
IE: large salaries, secure job until retirement, management that went along...well, that's all changed, in todays dog-eat-dog airline environment, and these older guys just simply cannot cope with the changes.
The blunt truth is...the gravy train that was once packed with CX flight deck crew, has promptly derailed, so...either put up with it, or leave.
Their choice.
Confronting CX management will not work, because...the HKG fix is in, with the regulatory authority, and the HKG courts.
Think I'm wrong?
Try and see...the 49ers found out first hand, much to their considerable dismay.
Not sure who invented the myth about the 'old guys' who live in the past and dream whimsically about days gone by. I know lots of Senior pilots in CX who think it's still great and really enjoy what they do. Speak for yourself 411 because you ain't talkin' for anyone I know.
Cool as a moosp
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Neptunus you are right, 411 is part of the furniture here and whilst showing frayed edges and scuff marks should not be consigned to the tip.
A healthy rebuttal in argument is vital. A reminder from the Fox News point of view is sometimes interesting so as to help formulate your reply.
411 sure pxxes a lot of people off, including myself, but he is a constant reminder of the character and moral code of an airline manager.
A healthy rebuttal in argument is vital. A reminder from the Fox News point of view is sometimes interesting so as to help formulate your reply.
411 sure pxxes a lot of people off, including myself, but he is a constant reminder of the character and moral code of an airline manager.
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Bleating "Red Raggers"
As one who did work for CX, in the so-called "Good Old Days", I read the same bleating posts from the same malcontents time after time. Maybe things have changed in terms of T's & C's, but the one constant is that no-one is nailed to the floor. I'll wager there are far more people employed by CX who believe they are better off than they were before joining than those who feel otherwise. If CX management is so tyrannical why not simply leave and find a "greener grass" employer? I suspect that the "belly acher's" would be whingeing no matter by whom they were employed. Before you start throwing hand grenades in my direction I did not leave with a big fat provident fund payout, but with abiding memories of a Company which always treated me fairly and paid me a just wage. Maybe some of those with a grievance should consider their options. Constant complaint will not sway the company and will serve only to heighten your own personal distress. John Warham's book will tell the 49er's story, from their point of view. Balanced account? I doubt it.
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Old Fella,
I doubt the book is meant to be balanced.
I suspect that he is keen to tell the truth instead - big difference.
As far as being paid a just wage, I earn about 80% less (in ppp) than you did, for about the same 70 stick hours.
Am I happy about it? No, but I can't find anywhere else to go that will take me on my current postion. A QF or BA pilot with my time in earns significantly more than I do, but as yet they havent replied to my job application.
The moment I can move my skill and experience around the world like other professionals, I will.
In the meantime, I remain a member of my AOA and do my best to keep the work/reward balance acceptable.
When the mortgage is paid and the kids are off my hands, well, then more options open up to me.
I doubt the book is meant to be balanced.
I suspect that he is keen to tell the truth instead - big difference.
As far as being paid a just wage, I earn about 80% less (in ppp) than you did, for about the same 70 stick hours.
Am I happy about it? No, but I can't find anywhere else to go that will take me on my current postion. A QF or BA pilot with my time in earns significantly more than I do, but as yet they havent replied to my job application.
The moment I can move my skill and experience around the world like other professionals, I will.
In the meantime, I remain a member of my AOA and do my best to keep the work/reward balance acceptable.
When the mortgage is paid and the kids are off my hands, well, then more options open up to me.
"with abiding memories of a Company which always treated me fairly and paid me a just wage."
I'm sure that all here wish they could say the same but unfortunately after you left those features disappeared
I'm sure that all here wish they could say the same but unfortunately after you left those features disappeared
I worked for cx a fair time ago and indeed in the 80s those were halcyon days. 411A - you can make some interesting points but you would be well- served to show a little compassion to the unwitting victims of grotesque cx mismanagement that became the 49-ers.
The arguments ref individuals in terms of their previous 'form' within the company are irrelevant. If a cx pilot had transgressed there was and remains a disciplinary process. The disgraceful and random, subjective and sudden sacking without appeal is a modern scar on the global airline industry. I will be buying John's book and I wish him and his fellow 49-ers best wishes and better fortunes.
The arguments ref individuals in terms of their previous 'form' within the company are irrelevant. If a cx pilot had transgressed there was and remains a disciplinary process. The disgraceful and random, subjective and sudden sacking without appeal is a modern scar on the global airline industry. I will be buying John's book and I wish him and his fellow 49-ers best wishes and better fortunes.
Good points olster. The point is that Cathay's 'shoot-from-the-hip' actions were designed to put the workforce into its place and forever enhance the perpetrator's careers in the minds of Swires in London. They've all done pretty well out of it and have earned themselves some serious 'stripes' when it comes to who has the biggest cahoonas.
Remember that this action would have been illegal in most civilised countries and pretty undesirable too in modern Western democracies. The perpetrators are still around and sound ever so nice babbling about how they thank 'the team' etc in good and bad times. They'll ditch you in a heartbeat if it suits them with not even a backward glance.
Best not forget that.
Remember that this action would have been illegal in most civilised countries and pretty undesirable too in modern Western democracies. The perpetrators are still around and sound ever so nice babbling about how they thank 'the team' etc in good and bad times. They'll ditch you in a heartbeat if it suits them with not even a backward glance.
Best not forget that.
Busy
Well said.
I have ordered the book and wish JW all the best.
As someone who has been around this train set for quite a few years I will stick my oar into this thread, albeit with some trepidation.
There is more than enough blame to go around for everyone in the whole sorry episode.
There are, however, a few facts that seem to have vanished over time. Some of them still live in the search function of pprune but after a decade most young turks in CX have the gloss but not the detail.
Firstly we must start from the basic understanding that all history is revisionist.
The actions of management were basically unconscionable.I suspect no-one disputes that fact given their were D&G processes in the system. One only has to look at the list that IW gave to DG to get a feel for how amateur the whole process was.
That said, what is often overlooked is the fact that a strong majority of Star Chamber members were actually our professional colleagues. By my count 70%.
The DFO at the time is the key to this whole episode and hopefully spending his retirement with a good dose of insomnia (although I doubt it). He also should have hosed down the 'Peanut' incident but didn't.
He said to the senior Swire management that he would fix it.
JW always had a a bullseye on his forehead after taking a position at negotiations that 'this is a fish heads & rice offer' while we expect 'cabernet and caviar'. Not sure whether this is mentioned in the book but I must assume it is not.
KB said he would fix it and foolishly management accepted his bravado.
And as they say, the rest is history.
Well said.
I have ordered the book and wish JW all the best.
As someone who has been around this train set for quite a few years I will stick my oar into this thread, albeit with some trepidation.
There is more than enough blame to go around for everyone in the whole sorry episode.
There are, however, a few facts that seem to have vanished over time. Some of them still live in the search function of pprune but after a decade most young turks in CX have the gloss but not the detail.
Firstly we must start from the basic understanding that all history is revisionist.
The actions of management were basically unconscionable.I suspect no-one disputes that fact given their were D&G processes in the system. One only has to look at the list that IW gave to DG to get a feel for how amateur the whole process was.
That said, what is often overlooked is the fact that a strong majority of Star Chamber members were actually our professional colleagues. By my count 70%.
The DFO at the time is the key to this whole episode and hopefully spending his retirement with a good dose of insomnia (although I doubt it). He also should have hosed down the 'Peanut' incident but didn't.
He said to the senior Swire management that he would fix it.
JW always had a a bullseye on his forehead after taking a position at negotiations that 'this is a fish heads & rice offer' while we expect 'cabernet and caviar'. Not sure whether this is mentioned in the book but I must assume it is not.
KB said he would fix it and foolishly management accepted his bravado.
And as they say, the rest is history.
Last edited by VR-HFX; 21st Jan 2011 at 08:39.
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The 49ers, The True Story
The 49ers, The True Story
By John Warham
Published by Book Guild Publishing
ISBN: 978-1-8462-4587-9
£12.95 (hardback)
This book is a cautionary tale for all pilots, both union and non-union.
In it, John sets out his experience and career path prior to the events surrounding the 49ers debacle, thereafter giving a full and robustly frank account of exactly what happened in the lead up to, and after, the infamous sacking of that group from Cathay Pacific. He covers the years of conflict after the event, culminating in the legal defeat of Cathay Pacific in the courts and the full vindication of the unfortunate pilots whose employment was terminated. There are one or two areas where it is quite hard going (legal transcripts necessary to the story), but for the most part it is a riveting read and has some serious salutary lessons for all professional pilots. John writes in a matter for fact and down-to-earth manner, doesn’t mince words and calls a spade a shovel!
Names are named, and I believe the contents to be the frankest account that I have read concerning any union dispute in any industry. If BALPA was a school, it would be compulsory reading!
It will be available from Amazon on 24th March and I can heartily recommend it.
Sandy Easton
The Log
By John Warham
Published by Book Guild Publishing
ISBN: 978-1-8462-4587-9
£12.95 (hardback)
This book is a cautionary tale for all pilots, both union and non-union.
In it, John sets out his experience and career path prior to the events surrounding the 49ers debacle, thereafter giving a full and robustly frank account of exactly what happened in the lead up to, and after, the infamous sacking of that group from Cathay Pacific. He covers the years of conflict after the event, culminating in the legal defeat of Cathay Pacific in the courts and the full vindication of the unfortunate pilots whose employment was terminated. There are one or two areas where it is quite hard going (legal transcripts necessary to the story), but for the most part it is a riveting read and has some serious salutary lessons for all professional pilots. John writes in a matter for fact and down-to-earth manner, doesn’t mince words and calls a spade a shovel!
Names are named, and I believe the contents to be the frankest account that I have read concerning any union dispute in any industry. If BALPA was a school, it would be compulsory reading!
It will be available from Amazon on 24th March and I can heartily recommend it.
Sandy Easton
The Log