The end of i Cadets?

[crewsunite]

Posted on Wannabes Forum:

You will see a change in hiring practices for next year. Apparently HK immigration approved work visas for the latest grad expat cadets, however indicated that there will be no future work visas for icadets as there were several formal complaints from HK locals filed lobbying that the cadet program was designed for locals to promote aviation careers for locals.
Latest requirement for 2011 is 350 pilots. Take your pick how CX will fill these positions.


Is this really the case?
It would be good if more locals could take a stand against this.
Spread the news and lodge complaints with Gov..

As it one thing to have expat I Cadets but totally another having Mainland Chinese I Cadets!

[betpump5]

Yes it is really the case. If you want the truth, come on PPrune

[HVY]

All this cadet program for locals is a joke. It was set up just before 1997 as a means of showing the Chinese government that Cx wasn’t just a British owned company milking Hong Kong for all it was worth. They took the Union Jacks off the planes, sent a few guys to Adelaide and voi-la, a company with Hong Kong’s best interests at heart.
When the program started they were taking on around 10 cadets a year. Now they’re looking at over 100. There is more opportunity for locals to get on the program now, not just because recruiting goes on all year round but there are more places available. If HK locals can meet the standard they will get in.
However, if the cadet program becomes the only route for second officers to join the company, in enough time, without direct entry or icadets, nearly every pilot for Cx will be a HK local. I don’t think there’s anything particularly wrong with that on the surface but consider this; With Mandarin being taught so widely in schools now there is less time to focus on English as a second language in the HK classroom. Will Cx be able to find 100 linguistically capable candidates with the right attributes every year indefinitely? Also, having a body of pilots who have all gone through the same or similar education channels will decrease the diversification in the cockpit. Aviation is a dynamic occupation and having a diverse selection of pilots from around the world makes our aircraft safer. Over specialise and breed in weakness.

[holdmetight]

HVY

However, if the cadet program becomes the only route for second officers to join the company, in enough time, without direct entry or icadets, nearly every pilot for Cx will be a HK local.

I don't think that will happen - if the entire concept of icadets is cancelled, the pilot recruitment framework of the past would reappear, with an ab initio cadet scheme for locals and a DESO program targetting expats. Regardless of English or lack of background/educational diversification, it would be impossible to rely solely on HKG for new pilots because there simply are not enough people who are interested and have the necessary aptitude or skills. If that wasn't true then local pilots would have begun to dominate the Cathay pilot ranks, just like other airlines in the world that set up cadet programs for its nationals.

[Monkiexecutioner]

Letter to Immigration Department

hello everyone, i have been a long time reader of this forum but this is my first post. I agree with those of you who believe the Cadet Program should only be limited to locals and that they should start hiring SOs directly again. So, i have typed a letter planning to send it to the immigration department. Let me know if anyone has suggestions or comments for me to make this letter more convincing. Thanks!


Dear Sir/Madam,
Recently, a group of Cadet Pilots from Cathay Pacific has graduated and returned to Hong Kong. Some of those that graduated are non-Hong Kong residents who are now waiting for the Immigration Department to issue them work visas. As a Hong Kong permanent resident and past applicant to the program, I strongly believe that such Visas should not be issued.
Due to the lack of training opportunities in Hong Kong, Cathay Pacific originally introduced the Cadet program so that locals with no flying experience can have a chance into aviation. However, Cathay Pacific is now accepting applicants from all parts of the world regardless if they have HKIDs or not. Since Cadet Pilots are accepted on local terms, Cathay Pacific can substantially save on housing reimbursements if they are able to employ their whole pilot body under this program.
I applied to the program in 2009 but unfortunately was rejected after two stages of interviews and tests. During the two stages, I met many other applicants and was surprised to see only 1 out of 3 applicants were holders of a HKID. All of the non-HKID holders that I met had some sort of aviation license already (ranging from a Private Pilot License to Commercial Pilot License). At that point, it was very clear to me that my competition was immense. While speaking to them, I found out that most of them plan on working with Cathay Pacific only for a few years after they receive the free training. If this is the case, a Hong Kong based company will be training people of other countries for free rather than training their own people. This is truly unfair to all of the residents of Hong Kong.
As a profit seeking company, Cathay Pacific will continue to accept experienced international applicants over inexperienced local applicants as long as they are allowed to do so—such applicants are just easier to train. This significantly reduces the chance of any Hong Kong resident to be accepted to the program.
Other than protecting the people of Hong Kong, the denial of work visas to international Cadet Pilots also protects the applicants themselves. Much of the international applicants come from countries that are a complete opposite of Hong Kong. They are used to living in houses that are at least 1,000 square foot and getting around in personal automobiles. However, with the pay scale that they are going to get and no housing allowance, the lifestyle that they are used to in their home country is impossible. Those who never planned on leaving Cathay after the free training will be forced to leave eventually. This can be prevented if work visas are not issued to them.
To protect the employment opportunities for the people of Hong Kong, the hiring of non-local Cadet Pilots should stop immediately. The only way this can be stopped is if the Immigration Department denies request of work visas to Cadet Entry Pilots. Since Cadets are not required to have any flying experience, there should be an abundant amount of applicants in Hong Kong that can be successful pilots if they are provided Cathay’s training. Work visas should only be issued to those who are already experienced enough to take the job of an airline pilot (Direct Entry Pilots) and should not be issued to those who need further training (Cadet Entry Pilots).

[RookieRookie]

MonkieExcutioner,

As much as I agree with you that the company is taking advantage of experienced candidates with the i-cadet program, I still found that you are a little pathetic. Yeah, write a letter to mommy and complain. I think it's clear that the company is determined to get rid of the expenisive housing allowances. So even if you can stop them hiring i-cadet, they will come up with another programme called something else. In regard to whether or not the i-cadet programme is jeopardizing local HK's opportunities to become pilot, it is very difficult to prove. There is a benchmark that one needs to meet. One got rejected simply because he/she is below this benchmark; not because there is an i-cadet programme. If the company would have to go back the the old cadet scheme(required hk id), then they will constantly struggle to hire enough cadets for each year. The point is if one can meet the benchmark, they will be hired; on the contrary, candidates who fail to meet the benchmark will be rejected, regardless of their flying experience. Lastly, most candidates who have applied to the i-cadet program probably have done some extensively research on the standard of living in HK. In fact, this point will be stressed by the HR department. If you'd really like to protect the candidates, you should write another letter to the labor department in HK and convince them that housing allowances should be paid to these guys. Lastly, if you are really keen to get into this program, figure why you failed. I assure you that this is not because you have less flying experience than the others. The big corporation will always get what they want. Just look at the SO court case.
I hope you can find your peace after sending this letter!

[hongkongfooey]

Yes, let's not try polishing a turd here, the cadet scheme is all about cheaper labour ( no offense intended to the natives ) and the Swine group will just offer the 5hit conditions to expat DESOs instead, and the saddest thing of all is you will still get killed in the sucker stampede.

[boxjockey]

Quickly everyone, let's capitulate, capitulate, capitulate!!!! Morons!

box

[Monkiexecutioner]

RookieRookie,

Please understand that I'm not writing this letter to vent out my anger since I did not get in. It is not a complaint of anything but simply it is only a letter of my opinion of what I see and feel as necessary. I truly believe that applicants need to meet a benchmark in order to get in and I agree that I was not a suitable applicant for the program during my Stages.

My goal for the letter is to make it fair for the people of Hong Kong. I feel that it is ridiculous for a Hong Kong based company to train people for other countries for free. Half of them plans to leave within a few years, and the other half will most likely be forced to leave due to the differences in the living conditions. If local applicants do not meet their benchmark, then don't hire any, don't go out and look for them, they should only look for airline ready pilots. Bring back the DESO hiring.

If Cathay really plans on employing the whole pilot body through the Cadet program, then it will become very risky for Cathay themselves as they can't be sure how long the Cadet Entry Pilots will stay. In the future, their pilots will all come from the Cadet program and they wouldn't have any diversity. Cathay can't put all their eggs in one basket. They need to accept pilots from all supply channels.

[Iron Skillet]

You might have to reword your letter, because the iCadets are not being trained for free the way HK Cadets were/are. The company is giving experienced iCadets, who previously would have been hired as DESO or DEFO, a new "short course" to appear as if they are still cadets in need of training. Heard there has been a 5000-hour jet captain offered a position as iCadet SO, and various similar examples.

[betpump5]

In the future, their pilots will all come from the Cadet program and they wouldn't have any diversity.

The fact that the icadets come from all over the world means there is diversity - as opposed to pure Hong Kong Locals?

Cathay can't put all their eggs in one basket. They need to accept pilots from all supply channels.

They aren't putting all their eggs in one basket. There are currently 3 diffrent courses available in the cadet scheme. The cadets range from ab-inito's to ex-instructors with +1500 hours.

Sorry mate. Your letter and thread is pointless. You should know that many of the cadets - pre Icadet - were HK-ID holders but not necessarily Hong Kong born. Many were the kids of expats (Cathay employees and Non-Cathay Employees).

Would you still be writing the same letter if one CP course was made up of 12 caucasians, but who have held HK-ID cards due to their parents working in Hong Kong?

You may argue otherwise, but it is more than obvious that your post is to vent out your bitterness and frustration.....you are very well at home here in pprune

[Air Profit]

...also heard that the company has offered 50+ people job offers this past month....with only ONE accepting the position....and I suspect he will come to his senses soon...!

[jriv]

"Heard there has been a 5000-hour jet captain offered a position as iCadet SO, and various similar examples. "

That might have been me. 8000 hours, A320 captain. Obviously, I declined.

This letter from Monkiexecutioner has now been mocked from several different angles. Perhaps one might consider that he has a valid point? That allowing the immigration of any person, from any country, to work for your company simply puts downward pressure on wages and working conditions for all workers in that job category in that country.

Any of us should expect that our government would not allow their own citizens to be undercut by foreigners.

If a country doesn't have enough people to fill that job, then THAT is the time to hire expats, on expat terms.

[tiger321]

Agreed

Well said jriv.

I think writing the letter to immigration is a very good idea.

What CX is trying to achieve with this programme ie. removing all expat terms (even for expats) is a disgrace.

............and yes I do work there and have for over a decade.

p.s. I would leave tomorrow if they removed the housing allowance

[cxorcist]

Betpump5,

I almost 100% convinced that you are a mngmt mole on these forums. If I were a betting man, I'd wager that you are IR (SK's mini-me). What a sad existence for you. Sorry mate.

Cxorcist

[Check and Checker]

Good work Monkie, someone who walks the walk.

[crewsunite]

@ Betpump5,

Compared to bottling up, venting ones frustrations is very healthy esp in this unjust world in which Cathay thrives in.

On the other hand, you don't even realize that you look the other way when looking in the mirror. (Sad that you don't realize that you have little Empathy)

@Monkie - Go ahead and write a letter to HK immigration, spread the word to other locals to do the same.

CX should be investing & employing local pilots. When those skills are short as they will always be, then they should employ expats on expat terms. Finished!

You locals need to take a stand. As the next thing we'll see is loads of Mainland Chinese taking this job away from HK Locals.

Fight against injustice.

[betpump5]

Same question still stands with respect to the locals.

Where is the line? Do we have a cadet programme that discriminates against caucasian HK-ID holders? Would we still be fighting for the "local" when already, many ex and current cadets are made up of caucasians who hold ID cards?

CX should be investing & employing local pilots. When those skills are short as they will always be, then they should employ expats on expat terms. Finished!

Ouch. Crewsreunite? More like Crewsfallapart. And you guys say its management dividing the workforce?

With opinions like that, who needs management to stir the sh!t.

[Loopdeloop]

Rookie - The problem with your "making the benchmark" argument is that the benchmark simply moves depending on the quality of the applicants. We've seen this in recent years as the quality of applicants for DEFO goes up and down depending on the state of the industry and the Cx package. If the training dept are to be believed, the benchmark has been lowered significantly a couple of times in the last 10 years just to get bums on seats.
To get back to the case in point, if a whole load of folk with flying experience from abroad apply for the same jobs as the locals are applying for then they're likely to have a better success rate with their Cx applications. Whether the locals are true locals or offspring of expats doesn't really matter - if the latter then they've still probably spent at least 7 years growing up here so have had the same restrictions as the true locals in terms of the limitations of growing up in Hong Kong and the availability of flying here. The company can hardly put "must look Chinese" in the job spec!
Monkie, I think you should go ahead and send as you're making a valid point.

[Monkiexecutioner]

Iron Skillet,

Thanks for the advice, I will mention the new "short-course" in the letter.

Betpump5,

The fact that the icadets come from all over the world means there is diversity - as opposed to pure Hong Kong Locals?

I do not mean racial diversity, I mean diversity in experience. I did say "In the future, their pilots will all come from the Cadet program".

They aren't putting all their eggs in one basket. There are currently 3 diffrent courses available in the cadet scheme. The cadets range from ab-inito's to ex-instructors with +1500 hours.

Well last time I read, most didn't accept into this scheme. But maybe you are right on one thing...

Yes it is really the case. If you want the truth, come on PPRuNe

I guess it's possible that all those candidates accepted the "Short-Course", but I can highly doubt that. Even though they are accepting such applicants, it doesn't mean anything if no applicants are willing to join!

Would you still be writing the same letter if one CP course was made up of 12 caucasians, but who have held HK-ID cards due to their parents working in Hong Kong?

I have no problem with Caucasians that have HKIDs from getting into the program. They have lived there for at least 7 years, so I'm guessing they know about the living conditions of HK. On the back of each HKID does state "The holder of this card has the right of abode in Hong Kong". I am only trying to fight Cathay here, not going to try and fight the HK government.

You should know that many of the cadets - pre Icadet - were HK-ID holders but not necessarily Hong Kong born. Many were the kids of expats (Cathay employees and Non-Cathay Employees).

Hmm...where did you get the information from? PPRuNe? From my Stage 1 and 2 and also from people I have talked to, there was only 1 Caucasian holding a HKID. Unless you are really from management then I can trust you on that

Everyone else,

Thank you much for the support! Agree with all your points! I will send this letter and urge anyone else to do the same