Local pilots fly off the handle at expat perks
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am also for it and I would like a refund for the difference in pay I got doing 10 ****ty years in GA instead of 10 years on CX seniority. I suppose thats only 10 years of command salary at 5% compound interest.
Can the AOA look at that next please, it is important we right all the wrongs and obviously I should have been able to join with a basic CPL all those years ago.
Can the AOA look at that next please, it is important we right all the wrongs and obviously I should have been able to join with a basic CPL all those years ago.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: asia
Posts: 947
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry Andthen, your warped logic is lost on me.
How you work out that people coming to airlines like HKA is effecting your package ( I assume in CX ) is completely beyond me, it does'nt seem to have hurt anyone else in CX
Local pilots should stand up for themselves and tell their story walking, as they have lowered the pay for all locals behind them, is'nt that right ? Why don't they go to Korean, Emirates, Etihad etc ? Why stay around here whining about the conditions ? If they are that bad surely you would be better off elsewhere.
Once again, at the risk of souding like a broken record, in most cases pilots joined airlines like HKA because they were lied to, the actual pay and conditions where nowhere near good enough to leave our homes for.
How you work out that people coming to airlines like HKA is effecting your package ( I assume in CX ) is completely beyond me, it does'nt seem to have hurt anyone else in CX
Local pilots should stand up for themselves and tell their story walking, as they have lowered the pay for all locals behind them, is'nt that right ? Why don't they go to Korean, Emirates, Etihad etc ? Why stay around here whining about the conditions ? If they are that bad surely you would be better off elsewhere.
Once again, at the risk of souding like a broken record, in most cases pilots joined airlines like HKA because they were lied to, the actual pay and conditions where nowhere near good enough to leave our homes for.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: York International
Posts: 677
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Competition
Oasis at least provided some competition for the employment of local pilots. A few FOs left KA for Oasis, this resulted in the "special allowance" for locals to try to stop anymore leaving.
It is all about supply and demand, long term not giving cadets housing may well cost more money as they will not be bound by the golden handcuffs.
It is all about supply and demand, long term not giving cadets housing may well cost more money as they will not be bound by the golden handcuffs.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Somewhere near IKATA
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hongkongfooey,
Your profound negativity towards the locals is disconcerting.
The majority of KA pilots are DPA members and support the DPA's aim to provide protection and continually improve the rights and working conditions of professional aircrew.
This includes local pilots.
Whilst you bleat off on this forum that you would've not been in HK if it wasn't for the expatriate package, that fact remains that YOU left your home country for an abysmal and inferior HKA package.
If you were foolish enough to leave your home country on a 'promise', then you deserve everything you got (or did not get) whilst in HKA.
Well said AndThen, I and many others share your sentiments!
Your profound negativity towards the locals is disconcerting.
The majority of KA pilots are DPA members and support the DPA's aim to provide protection and continually improve the rights and working conditions of professional aircrew.
This includes local pilots.
Whilst you bleat off on this forum that you would've not been in HK if it wasn't for the expatriate package, that fact remains that YOU left your home country for an abysmal and inferior HKA package.
If you were foolish enough to leave your home country on a 'promise', then you deserve everything you got (or did not get) whilst in HKA.
Well said AndThen, I and many others share your sentiments!
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: london
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It would seem that this debate is veering a bit of course. We need to find a common ground for the overall issue. Arguing on the basis of 'race' is a sure fire way to lose ground to the company's agenda. All pilot groups deserve an improvement on their package. How do we achieve that?
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: City of fog
Age: 41
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with sirhcttarp
It's all about bridging the gap between the pay of the expat and local. I for one agrees that expats should have housing allowance. Epats left their home countries for HK, it should be compensated for. But what demoralizing is that Cathay used it as an excuse to cap the LEP overall pay package. What level of accommodation is expected to cost 50k a month (FO housing allowance), really?
Again Cathay is and have been very good with the "divide and conquer" concept. This is what exactly Cathay wants. We are colleagues, friends. Lets stay unified.
It's all about bridging the gap between the pay of the expat and local. I for one agrees that expats should have housing allowance. Epats left their home countries for HK, it should be compensated for. But what demoralizing is that Cathay used it as an excuse to cap the LEP overall pay package. What level of accommodation is expected to cost 50k a month (FO housing allowance), really?
Again Cathay is and have been very good with the "divide and conquer" concept. This is what exactly Cathay wants. We are colleagues, friends. Lets stay unified.
Last edited by ColonialFlyer; 22nd Feb 2010 at 12:35.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Europe
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've registered just now only to say "what the hell is going on"
Expat benefits are just that. If you're a local (I am) you get local terms. To get expat terms go somewhere else. What is it you guys don't understand? I'd like more money, of course, but I signed for what I get - end of story!
If you want an expat package then go to Emirates, Qatar, Etihad whatever but if you want to stay where you come from accept what we get.
Expat benefits are just that. If you're a local (I am) you get local terms. To get expat terms go somewhere else. What is it you guys don't understand? I'd like more money, of course, but I signed for what I get - end of story!
If you want an expat package then go to Emirates, Qatar, Etihad whatever but if you want to stay where you come from accept what we get.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Earth
Age: 49
Posts: 65
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If an Expat joined OUR CX group and found out that locals obtained the same pay as an expatty, would they care? Many expat Aussie guys take LESS pay than local HK F/Os but dont complain.
They want promotion, respect and glory, ulitmatly.
Actually, in KA, pilots with far more experience than their similar seniority CX buddies are paid less than locals in CX (considering loss of licence, years spent learning their trade)
I dont mind either way, as Im here for what I can get, then if I cant get more, Ill become a moron... I mean Mormon, cos only morons can truly accept their fate as mercinary labor in CX or Ka or the other bunch.
Id love to leave, but cannot. So hurt lockerish.
They want promotion, respect and glory, ulitmatly.
Actually, in KA, pilots with far more experience than their similar seniority CX buddies are paid less than locals in CX (considering loss of licence, years spent learning their trade)
I dont mind either way, as Im here for what I can get, then if I cant get more, Ill become a moron... I mean Mormon, cos only morons can truly accept their fate as mercinary labor in CX or Ka or the other bunch.
Id love to leave, but cannot. So hurt lockerish.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Racial Discrimination Ordinance RDO
Whilst I have no issue with any group within the pilot body trying to improve their lot, I do have an issue with how it is achieved. The ends, do not on this occasion, justify the means.
PW has quite rightly tried to build a better relationship with senior management, notably TT, with limited success. I do not see how accusing TT and/or the company he controls of engaging in racial discrimination advances his chances of forming any working relationship. To make this claim you would have to absolutely certain of your grounds.
I would recommend PW (or anyone else advancing this argument) bangs Racial Discrimination Ordinance into google and read some of the commentary. The HK Govt's advice to employers is illuminating. Based on presumably s13 of the Ordinance, it would seem the payment of expat terms does not constitute a breach, so long as the skills required are not available in HK.
The AOA's FAQ's would have us believe this is a convenient loophole, when it seems the RDO specifically allows for the payment of expat terms. I think the AOA are spinning this one a bit hard.
PW has quite rightly tried to build a better relationship with senior management, notably TT, with limited success. I do not see how accusing TT and/or the company he controls of engaging in racial discrimination advances his chances of forming any working relationship. To make this claim you would have to absolutely certain of your grounds.
I would recommend PW (or anyone else advancing this argument) bangs Racial Discrimination Ordinance into google and read some of the commentary. The HK Govt's advice to employers is illuminating. Based on presumably s13 of the Ordinance, it would seem the payment of expat terms does not constitute a breach, so long as the skills required are not available in HK.
The AOA's FAQ's would have us believe this is a convenient loophole, when it seems the RDO specifically allows for the payment of expat terms. I think the AOA are spinning this one a bit hard.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CX are racist and sexist
CX gave a female, local FO three shots at Command (letting her through in the end). Round-eyed lads were **** canned after two attempts at Command.
Only after this was raised with the company (and the injustice and possible bad-press explained) has the company now decided to review the status of these non-local, non-chick pilots.
But, they have to go through sim sessions, PCA Tech interviews, additional line checks etc etc before it is decided if they are to get a third go at Command.
Only after this was raised with the company (and the injustice and possible bad-press explained) has the company now decided to review the status of these non-local, non-chick pilots.
But, they have to go through sim sessions, PCA Tech interviews, additional line checks etc etc before it is decided if they are to get a third go at Command.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: up here, everyone looks like ants!
Posts: 966
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
THREE ATTEMPTS?
On joining, Noel J explained, very clearly, that you had one shot and one shot only.
Emphasis was added by showing you a ticket home with your name on it.
Woosies.
On joining, Noel J explained, very clearly, that you had one shot and one shot only.
Emphasis was added by showing you a ticket home with your name on it.
Woosies.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Smogsville
Posts: 1,424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A CX TALE
ORGANISATIONAL CONDITIONING-A CX TALE
-----------------------------------------
Eight CX A scale pilots were put in a room. In the middle of the room was a ladder, leading to a bunch of COS's hanging from a hook on the ceiling. Each time a A scaler tried to climb the ladder; all the A scalers were threatened with B scale, which made them miserable.
Soon enough, whenever a A scaler pilot attempted to climb the ladder, all of the other A scalers, not wanting to be threatened, set upon him and beat him up.
Soon, none of the eight A scalers ever attempts to climb the ladder. One of the original A scalers is then removed, and a new B scaler is put in the room.
Seeing the improved COS and the ladder, he wonders why none of the other pilots are doing the obvious, but, undaunted, he immediately begins to climb the ladder. All the other pilots fall upon him and beat him silly.
He has no idea why. However, he no longer attempts to climb the ladder.
A second original A scaler is removed and replaced. The new B scaler again attempts to climb the ladder, but all the other pilots hammer the hell out of him. This includes the previous new B scaler, who, grateful that he's not on the receiving end this time, participates in the beating because all the other pilots are doing it. However, he has no idea why he's attacking the new B scaler.
One by one, all the original A scalers are replaced. Eight new B scalers are now in the room. None of them have ever been threatened with SLS. None of them attempts to climb the ladder.
All of them will enthusiastically beat up any new B scale / Freighter / DEC / DEF/O or Local pilot who tries, without having any idea why.
AND THAT'S HOW ANY COMPANY'S POLICIES/PROCESS GETS ESTABLISHED!
ORGANISATIONAL CONDITIONING-A CX TALE
-----------------------------------------
Eight CX A scale pilots were put in a room. In the middle of the room was a ladder, leading to a bunch of COS's hanging from a hook on the ceiling. Each time a A scaler tried to climb the ladder; all the A scalers were threatened with B scale, which made them miserable.
Soon enough, whenever a A scaler pilot attempted to climb the ladder, all of the other A scalers, not wanting to be threatened, set upon him and beat him up.
Soon, none of the eight A scalers ever attempts to climb the ladder. One of the original A scalers is then removed, and a new B scaler is put in the room.
Seeing the improved COS and the ladder, he wonders why none of the other pilots are doing the obvious, but, undaunted, he immediately begins to climb the ladder. All the other pilots fall upon him and beat him silly.
He has no idea why. However, he no longer attempts to climb the ladder.
A second original A scaler is removed and replaced. The new B scaler again attempts to climb the ladder, but all the other pilots hammer the hell out of him. This includes the previous new B scaler, who, grateful that he's not on the receiving end this time, participates in the beating because all the other pilots are doing it. However, he has no idea why he's attacking the new B scaler.
One by one, all the original A scalers are replaced. Eight new B scalers are now in the room. None of them have ever been threatened with SLS. None of them attempts to climb the ladder.
All of them will enthusiastically beat up any new B scale / Freighter / DEC / DEF/O or Local pilot who tries, without having any idea why.
AND THAT'S HOW ANY COMPANY'S POLICIES/PROCESS GETS ESTABLISHED!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: same place
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I see that Nick Rhodes is quoted in the SCMP today, he says that the housing allowance has reduced from 100% of pilots being eligible in 1988 to 46% currently and that the expat housing allowance should not continue indefinately! He says that the trend of reducing housing allowance in percentage terms of HK based pilots should continue.
It is obvious then that management and the AOA are working together. They have used the LEP'S as a pawn in this game, appealing to the greedy nature of a few vocal members in this group. It seems greed and Hong Kong go hand in hand. The race card is pathetic at best, considering that a few of the cadets are westerners themselves. It's also guaranteed to drum up media interest and hence the interest of the Hong Kong people who will be aghast at this percieved persecution of this particular group.
As the housing policy is up for renewal at the end of this year, I feel very concerned at the implications of this for us all. It is quite obvious what will be put forward, a much reduced cash allowance, no doubt based on rank, cadet or non cadet. If this happens watch the flood gates open, I believe people will flee from this place like the proverbial sinking ship. This will be the legacy of the greed of a few people, who no doubt would probably complain if their housing policy kitty was dipped into to pay the people on the London, Sydney, Vancouver, Adelaide, Melbourne, etc bases for exactly the same priviledge which they now contend to be their's. I'm not saying that all LEP'S are implicated in this, I know because I've flown with a few who think the whole thing is mad.
It is obvious then that management and the AOA are working together. They have used the LEP'S as a pawn in this game, appealing to the greedy nature of a few vocal members in this group. It seems greed and Hong Kong go hand in hand. The race card is pathetic at best, considering that a few of the cadets are westerners themselves. It's also guaranteed to drum up media interest and hence the interest of the Hong Kong people who will be aghast at this percieved persecution of this particular group.
As the housing policy is up for renewal at the end of this year, I feel very concerned at the implications of this for us all. It is quite obvious what will be put forward, a much reduced cash allowance, no doubt based on rank, cadet or non cadet. If this happens watch the flood gates open, I believe people will flee from this place like the proverbial sinking ship. This will be the legacy of the greed of a few people, who no doubt would probably complain if their housing policy kitty was dipped into to pay the people on the London, Sydney, Vancouver, Adelaide, Melbourne, etc bases for exactly the same priviledge which they now contend to be their's. I'm not saying that all LEP'S are implicated in this, I know because I've flown with a few who think the whole thing is mad.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Shagland
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why is everyone calling each other greedy? You wouldn't be at CX if it wasn't for greed.
Remember this:
[I]"Greed -- for lack of a better word -- is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms -- greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind." Gorden Gekko
Remember this:
[I]"Greed -- for lack of a better word -- is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms -- greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind." Gorden Gekko
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At the end of the day the only way the pay and conditions for the LEPs will change is if lots leave or no-one joins. So if all the LEPs got trained up, got some experience and then quit for greener pastures, the company would have to change the LEP pay and conditions. Until that happens, nothing will change.
What happened when B scale was introduced, a deluge of applications.
What happened when the S/O option was introduced, a deluge of applications.
What happened when the international cadet programme was introduced, 17000+ applications so far.
Thee will always be someone wanting a job here at what the company is prepared to offer at the time. It is that simple. If no-one applies then the the company sweetens the package, though it hasn't needed to yet.
What happened when B scale was introduced, a deluge of applications.
What happened when the S/O option was introduced, a deluge of applications.
What happened when the international cadet programme was introduced, 17000+ applications so far.
Thee will always be someone wanting a job here at what the company is prepared to offer at the time. It is that simple. If no-one applies then the the company sweetens the package, though it hasn't needed to yet.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 672
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CX gave a female, local FO three shots at Command (letting her through in the end). Round-eyed lads were **** canned after two attempts at Command.
Only after this was raised with the company (and the injustice and possible bad-press explained) has the company now decided to review the status of these non-local, non-chick pilots.
But, they have to go through sim sessions, PCA Tech interviews, additional line checks etc etc before it is decided if they are to get a third go at Command.
Only after this was raised with the company (and the injustice and possible bad-press explained) has the company now decided to review the status of these non-local, non-chick pilots.
But, they have to go through sim sessions, PCA Tech interviews, additional line checks etc etc before it is decided if they are to get a third go at Command.
...and yes she passed 2nd attempt, like so many other people, expat and non-expat!
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Miffed at being an online internet comedy ....
Age: 69
Posts: 227
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Back in the day Cathay hired from a known pool of excellence & professionalism and this pool was the Air Force as well as experienced heavy jet pilots from all over the world. ( Second best to the Air force )
Today CX hire any ding bat G.A. pilot and local cadet to make up the numbers and it shows.
Our skills, determination, knowledge, experience & tenacity were the foundations that CX was built on. Without us there never would have been an airline in Hong Kong.
WE WERE WORTH OUR A SCALE WAGES & THEN SOME
The people they hire now would be better of working in McDonald's, no recruit will ever compare to the talented individuals that were selected during my era.
So there should be a pay scale based on Skill & Experience like there was previously. COS 08 we'll let me explain some other time.
Today CX hire any ding bat G.A. pilot and local cadet to make up the numbers and it shows.
Our skills, determination, knowledge, experience & tenacity were the foundations that CX was built on. Without us there never would have been an airline in Hong Kong.
WE WERE WORTH OUR A SCALE WAGES & THEN SOME
The people they hire now would be better of working in McDonald's, no recruit will ever compare to the talented individuals that were selected during my era.
So there should be a pay scale based on Skill & Experience like there was previously. COS 08 we'll let me explain some other time.
Guest
Posts: n/a
1989 all over again.
Reminds me of the AFAP going for a 29% pay increase back in 1989.
The Cadets in Cathay should show some responsibility for their actions, and accept the fact that they agreed to their conditions of service, and signed on the line.
Should the cadets break their contracts for improved conditions... by the same logic, I should get A-scale.
Equal pay for equal work.... isn't that right boys ?
The cathay cadets have had the easiest run in aviation history. All training paid for, no time in regional airlines, straight into a heavy jet on a good salary, and no time having to wash planes in some outback hellhole waiting for the chance to fly a C210.... and at the same time, no bond to worry about, so you can leave anytime you like !! (take the hint...?)
The cadets got all their training paid for... so to make everything equal... perhaps I should invoice cathay for my training costs.
But the cadets will say that it was my choice to pay for my own training.....
You're damn right it was my choice !!!.
And it was your choice to sign your conditions of service...., but in the Cadet world you don't take responsibility for your own actions (like signing a legal document)... if you don't like your contract 5 years down the track... just cry "RACISM", and ask for a massive pay rise outside your contract.
And shame on the AOA for supporting them, and putting the conditions of service of all the other pilots are risk.
So here is my suggestion.
TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR DECISIONS, or RESIGN.
The Cadets in Cathay should show some responsibility for their actions, and accept the fact that they agreed to their conditions of service, and signed on the line.
Should the cadets break their contracts for improved conditions... by the same logic, I should get A-scale.
Equal pay for equal work.... isn't that right boys ?
The cathay cadets have had the easiest run in aviation history. All training paid for, no time in regional airlines, straight into a heavy jet on a good salary, and no time having to wash planes in some outback hellhole waiting for the chance to fly a C210.... and at the same time, no bond to worry about, so you can leave anytime you like !! (take the hint...?)
The cadets got all their training paid for... so to make everything equal... perhaps I should invoice cathay for my training costs.
But the cadets will say that it was my choice to pay for my own training.....
You're damn right it was my choice !!!.
And it was your choice to sign your conditions of service...., but in the Cadet world you don't take responsibility for your own actions (like signing a legal document)... if you don't like your contract 5 years down the track... just cry "RACISM", and ask for a massive pay rise outside your contract.
And shame on the AOA for supporting them, and putting the conditions of service of all the other pilots are risk.
So here is my suggestion.
TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR DECISIONS, or RESIGN.