DFO Update 08MAY09

[M89speedtouch]

Of course, I would prefer that all crew members be employed, one day, on the same contract with the same pay scale, benefits and retirement age but I accept that this is not going to happen overnight.

Hahaha. Pretty rich from a person who has spent the last 10 years taking bonuses for creating dozens of different and lower conditions of service.

the same contract with the same pay scale

It's called C scales: managers make money from gullible pilots.

As I said in my last Update, if you wish to have security of employment, with Cathay Pacific, beyond the age of 55 you should sign across to CoS08 now, no matter what age you are.

Hahaha. Security of employment?? Pretty rich from a person who sat in the Star Chamber to terminate 49 pilots on 3 months notice for 'no particular reason'. CoS08: managers easily fool gullible pilots.

The only option that will disappoint is the option to stay on CoS99 and not to participate in either the SLS or the Voluntary Unpaid Leave Scheme.

SLS: hahaha nice try but be 'disappointed'. Leaving that to the foolish or gullible.

[Sqwak7700]

So the same guy who is trying to introduce a new COS is the guy who wishes we are all on the same COS? We would if you just took this pice of crap deal of the table, morron. We could all easily be on COS99 if you just changed the retirement age to 65, which is what would happen if we had a union / pilot body that had a spine.

I can't believe that the AOA is agreeing with this ****t, it makes me really angry that they are not taking a militant stand against all this crap.

He lies to our faces and our Union president just sits there and endorses the crap. It really is infuriating, and makes me really glad that I will abstain from selecting SLS & COS08.

I'll ask one more time, I really wonder how the AOA president will vote on COS08...

[Frogman1484]

Sqwak 7700 , I bet you are not even in the AOA...right?
You obviously have no idea on how many different interests there in the pilot body. No, it has to be only what you want now, or you will throw your toys out your cot.

Leave the negotiations to the AOA, I can assure you that they have a much longer view on what is going and on what is achievable in working with management. They are also trying to get the best deal for everyone , not just for you.

Look what happened the last time we went "More Militant", it took us years of bending over to get the Union to where it is today. Slowly and with time it is getting harder and harder for management to change things.

Focus on the big picture not on yourself only!

[Sqwak7700]

Slowly and with time it is getting harder and harder for management to change things.

Yeah, as we are being shoved to lesser COS, that seems a bit out of touch. Besides, management doesn't have to work so hard with the AOA helping to push it along.

And I am in the AOA, but not for long. And by focusing on myself I am looking at the bigger picture. It is people that take COS08, a lesser deal, just so they can keep working to 65 that are being selfish. They'll endorse a deal that screws the majority just so they can have security to 65. Not to mention that everyone who has asked for extension has gotten it, so it is a moot point anyways.

You should support your principles - not leaders or associations. This way, when those leaders / associations go off the deep-end, you don't end up following them.

[Pathos]

Lie lies lies

As I said in my last Update, if you wish to have security of employment, with Cathay Pacific, beyond the age of 55 you should sign across to CoS08 now, no matter what age you are.

Was this the security of employment of which the DFO speaks? Lies lies lies.

http://img214.imagevenue.com/img.php?loc=loc226ℑ=91531_49er_122_226lo.jpg

[crewsunite]

May Day you do make sure good points

I have been following some of the things you say.

Though its very emotive at the moment, you do make sure good points.

For example: A scalers (Our fearless leaders & roll models)
Reaching 55 have three choices as I see it

1) Retire & enjoy a good life with some youth remaining.

2) Remain working on A scale till RA65 if the CX does not offer it. Put up a fight (Legally 1st then with other forms of lobbying & pressure)
If all of you including trainers etc do the same then CX would have little choice as they need you as NR said. You are also more in a position to put up a fight than the rest of us. You should have paid off houses & kids grown up etc.
(CMD extensions this way we are proctected by BPP & we'll all benefit from RA65 if we really need to work longer)

3) Sign Cos08 and effectively "take a new job" almost like a DEC taking away CMD from JNR crew. You'll be selling yourselves to a cheaper deal at our expense! Thus by choosing the 3rd option gives us little hope for the future.
You also take away alot of hope and asperations and fuelling some bitterness.

Life sucks when our kids are at school overseas and we cannot get basis.
While you on your base enjoying clean air & fishing in between your holiday job which pays for your mansions renovations & that new BMW bike. If you are really professional demand pay for experience! Demand the same contract.
You'll find most have no problem with that. In fact you'll make us really proud.

And that's maybe why May day & the Likes are so MAD!
If we're a team choose option 2) Fight for a solid victory. As our leaders & roll models help set the bar at a high level you'll have more leverage than us! If you really care.

Anyway's like many others my brain is stressed out big time & has been effected by all this emotion.



Last say: Why the rush? Try and delay COS08 until more clarification.
A NO vote may mean a better deal for all incl Cos99 in more favourable times.

OR why not have another option on a VOTE with guys saying:
a) I agree with Cos08
b) I don't agree with Cos08
c) I suggest xyz in no more than 30 words.

They be saying the No's there & then more likely to put a YES tick where you desire!

[cluin44]

You should support your principles - not leaders or associations.

Ask a 49er about the sorts of principles the AOA stands for.

[Dragon69]

Frogman, there is no doubt in my mind that you are a committee member the way you defend the actions of the AoA. Granted there may be a bit too much AoA bashing, but I must admit, most of it is warranted. At least admit that the AoA is wrong in supporting SLS.

You obviously have no idea on how many different interests there in the pilot body.

Please explain to me how SLS is benefiting certain crews, or do you think that some crews prefer taking a 16% pay cut. Do you actually believe that the company is in a dire financial state??? have you been privy to certain financial data that spells doom for Cathay??? What about the billions in cash reserve??? What was the point of slaving away for years, without any improvements to salary, and conditions, to make them all that money when they would rather have the employees bear the burden on a scheme that would save them absolute peanuts compared to what they have in the bank. And this we are assuming that Cathay at the present is operating at a loss, which I don't believe it to be true.

For months the AoA had been disputing NR's weekly update, and for once I thought, finally an AoA with some backbone, but as soon as management said jump, some in the AoA were too eager to jump off the roof of the headland. I am certainly with Sqwak, I am just flabbergasted as to why the AoA would approve SLS.

Look what happened the last time we went "More Militant", it took us years of bending over to get the Union to where it is today. Slowly and with time it is getting harder and harder for management to change things.

Now that is priceless!!!! Where exactly is the union today??? 'cause it is obvious that you're still bent over!!!

[crewsunite]

Good point

I get the feelling AoA don't really support SLS at all. They are just saying so to win favour from the CX.
Favour for two possible reasons
1) To make improvements to Cos08 (Option 3) so as to feather some nests.
It won't really work... 30APR, 10May, 18May -still clear as Mud.
When it should be supporting SLS to gain favour
2) In delaying Cos08 until 2010
When they should be choosing option Option 2) A scale contracts until RA65
with that Paypass pay, basis , housing etc..

TT & NR were & still are having a few arguments about this mess.
TT wants 100% SLS to win favour from others.
NR thought it a good time screw us in the process.
TT says u had better get good stats on this or esle.
AoA it that easy forget Option 3 (Structure the vote to reflect this & idemnify yourselves) tell Cx the members dont like COS08 but we'll all take SLS. (lose this battle but win the war) But don't let Cos08 get through to more than 30%

Come on! Try cheer up when the wakes of the swire yatch pass & paddle at Dawn when he's not around!

[Sqwak7700]

Good post Dragon, I think you hit the nail right on the head.

It was all this tough talk and finally seeing some backbone from the AOA that got many to join. They saw this tough stance that the union was taking against the company, and they thought it was about time to join the fight.

People didn't join the AOA in the past few months to "loose battles but win the war". We have been loosing too many battles as it is, we can't afford to loose more. Unless you win some battles, then you are loosing the war. People want action, they don't care what the outcome might be as long as they put up a fight.

Caving in to SLS to achieve some meager improvements, which aren't really improvements - was a big sellout. You can get on here and defend the AOA all you want, but at the end of the day, this is the majority's view. This will cost the AOA a lot of members by the end of this year, and could spell the end of the organization, especially if management comes back for more.

Even though I don't think it is warranted, I've already helped CX by giving half of my 13th month and receiving no profit share. You can bet that they will probably take away 13th month next year. We have no control of this adjustment to our remuneration - you do have control of the SLS option. Send a message to the directors that you don't agree with the way this place is being managed. If you agree to SLS you are supporting the way in which we are being managed, and you are making TT and NR's bonus that much bigger. Do you think they deserve that???

This company is being managed in the same way as a Hong Kong taxi experience. What is needed right now is a light application of the brake to reduce speed, but what they are doing is slamming on the brake, just to slam on the gas pedal in a few months.

[iceman50]

Flap 10

How long have you been with CX? Obviously not long enough!

[Flap10]

FYI, just shy of 15 years, so what do you think iceman is that long enough???

[FlexibleResponse]

FYI, just shy of 15 years, so what do you think iceman is that long enough???

I think iceman50 (and I am only guessing here) is hinting that you haven't learn much in the time that you have been in Hong Kong, or perhaps you haven't been listening.

The AOA tries to improve the salary and conditions of service of all of the flight crew members of CX.

The AOA's power comes from:

1. The number of members it has, and
2. Relies on their support (ie, no one undermining their resolve).

There are some folks that are very self-focused (see Sqwak 7700's comments, for example):

And I am in the AOA, but not for long. And by focusing on myself I am looking at the bigger picture....You should support your principles - not leaders or associations.

Perhaps iceman50's point is where do you stand?

Will you line up shoulder to shoulder with your compatriots to fight the common enemy? Or will you be a Judas and and seek the pieces of silver and sell your workmates down the creek?

[Sqwak7700]

This is the place for such comments Butt-kisser, if you want to keep "Brown Nosing", you can go to the AOA forum and have at it.

And for your information, the Union's lame ass response to SLS has disappointed many of its members that where expecting a harsh stance, just as it has been presented on previous AOA literature.

So stop bashing people for voicing their opinion. If you have an opinion on why you are taking SLS and COS08, then voice it. Otherwise, go do all those things you think you have going on in your busy little life and leave us "losers" alone.

[iceman50]

Flap10 and out of those nearly 15 years how many in the AOA?

PS why did you delete your first post?

As for you "Sqwak" just keep on sqwaking! You will convince yourself sometime soon. By the way have you actually compared CoS08 with CoS99, what are the changes that will affect you if you signed over? Lets see if you can actually string a few words together without resorting to childish banter!

[Flap10]

Iceman,

I’ve been a member since the day I joined and resigned shortly after the disgraceful 49er vote. I swore to never join again, but when S.T. left, a friend convinced me to join saying the AoA was headed in a new direction. Now I am not so sure if anything really has changed. I do recall reading all the “vote for me letters” from would-be committee members, and was glad to see that all had a common tone, and that was how it was time to take a stronger position against management. I realize now all that was just hogwash!

I did not delete any posts. For some reason my computer keeps logging me out whenever I try to submit a post. You might have seen one post for a few seconds that was meant for flexibleresponse, and which is now lost forever to cyberspace

[iceman50]

Flap10
Thanks for your reply. I can understand your response to the 49ers decision, I decided to stay to see if anything could be changed. But unfortunately this is HK. You have to make the best of a bad job.

[Frogman1484]

Sqwak 7700, you are entitled to your opinion and so are the rest of the people in here.

If you think you can get a better outcome to this by negotiating directly with NR or TT, be my guest. Lets see how far you will get.

If in the future, you think you will be able to improve your individual contract by dealing directly with them...leave the AOA and good luck.

By the way I'm not in the committee, but I would expect you to at least nominate yourself for the next one, that way you can push your agenda through the proper channels. Also if you bothered to go to the AOA forums online and at one of the meetings, you would be better educated on what is actually going on and on what the AOA is actually supporting and recommending.

[Flap10]

If you think you can get a better outcome to this by negotiating directly with NR or TT, be my guest. Lets see how far you will get.

If in the future, you think you will be able to improve your individual contract by dealing directly with them...leave the AOA and good luck.

You know how many times that has been said before, kind of getting old! In fact if one leaves the AoA and chooses to stay on CoS99 for the rest of their career, by default he will always have a better contract than any subsequent contract negotiated through the AoA. Fact is every contract since I've joined has been worse than the previous, so unless the AoA stands up and does something, instead of hiding behind smoke and mirrors you will never see an improvement, just a degradation that's presented in a gift wrap.

By the way I'm not in the committee, but I would expect you to at least nominate yourself for the next one

Another cop out statement. You can't congratulate Red Cross volunteers when they knowingly distribute tainted milk to a poor village. If you are going to volunteer at least stick to what you promised to do, other wise hire professionals in the AoA and get rid of volunteers.

[Frogman1484]

Flap 10 , well done, at least now you know what to vote.

Give my regards to Nick while you try to negotiate your next contract, the 100% one sided one they will impose on you!!!

Lets see how much of an improvement that one will be