SCMP article re: local v expat terms

[iceman50]

For those on "local" terms your SALARY is exactly the same as the expat that you joined with. The difference occurs with "allowances".

The "expat" receives housing allowance due to the cost of housing in HK comparable with the country they have been recruited from. The fact that the company allows some people to use that for a mortgage is a "company" decision and purely financial, it is cheaper for them in the long run and "ties" the recipients to the company.

The education allowance is given as the government does not provide free "english" based education, whereas the "local speaking" can receive free education.

So you are NOT being discriminated against as you receive the same salary, flying allowances, travel and right choice benefits, depending upon your date of joining. Local Captain's receive a "special" allowance for being at the appropriate level of management, the same as other non-flying "local" managers.

It is like those who do not have children asking for the education allowance because other people are receiving it so they should, they are getting paid more than me.

If I was at my home base then I would not receive, quite rightly, housing or education allowance. The same argument put forward against extensions can be used, you knew what you were signing up for - live with it.

[Mullah Lite]

WRT the former post:

<The "expat" receives housing allowance due to the cost of housing in HK comparable with the country they have been recruited from. The fact that the company allows some people to use that for a mortgage is a "company" decision and purely financial, it is cheaper for them in the long run and "ties" the recipients to the company.>

What a load of....

Your statement warrants merit if you come from Oslo, Seoul, London, Paris, Monaco, Tokyo or any other metropolitan area comparable to HKG with, and this is not an understatement, astronomical housing costs. But given the variation in background origin I'll bet there are more than some who come from burb areas with podunk commuter airports that wouldn't have a hope in hell of appearing on the Forbes list of most expensive places to live. And how convenient to argue on the side of the company's financial decision making! It just so happens allow you to accrue equity in the form of some of the world's most expensive property whereas such financial shaking and making is almost non existent in other airline's expat packages. Well, let's not touch upon that point anymore lest the company get wind of the fact that they might be doing you, and not just them, a favour.

<The education allowance is given as the government does not provide free "english" based education, whereas the "local speaking" can receive free education.>

"Local speaking"? You can use the term Chinese, it's not a dalit word. Most LEPS recognise the need for families from overseas needing to place their kids in a language curriculum which reflects what they would be immersed in at home. But there are LEP families here whose kids don't speak a lick of English either.....because guess what, their parents aren't Chinese. Would your standards apply to them too? And if so, then what about the expat families whose kids were born here in HKG....they would then be entitled to all the education benefits that a local child would receive, and why not send them to a Chinese school and become bilingual, which a few expats already are. And still claim the education allowance, which some do. What's that about getting paid mroe than you? Oh right, I forgot, it only applies if locals get more than basic pay. Filthy, filthy thought.

[slapfaan]

sirhcttarp...

I agree with your point #2,and remember furthermore that there are now HONG KONG based freighter commands offered too..

- Seniority applies
- Local terms ie: no housing
- "special allowance" due cat D status

And these positions are available to anybody REGARDLESS, I say again REGARDLESS of nationality,permanent HKID,skin colour,ethnic classification or whatever..

It's nothing more than a salary cut and a cunning scheme by CX to by-pass expat housing allowances..

[hongkongfooey]

God !! I did not realise how frustrating this would be, but here I go repeating the same again.

1) It does'nt matter weather I ( and other non-chinese HK inhabitants ) get a bloody perm ID card, a key to the city and a ticker tape parade, MY FAMILY, MY FRIENDS ( some of which I have known for 25 years ), MY CLEAN AIR AND MY WIDE OPEN SPACES WILL NEVER BE HERE IN HONG KONG, wether I spend 7 or 70 years here, nor will the relative peace and quiet I enjoy at home as I sit here listening to the HK anthem....Hammer drills, jack hammers and some idiot sneezing at the top of his voice probably from breathing in concrete dust.
I am not prepared to live out in the New Territories in a high rise 600' apartment for the privilege of all of the above, not when I had a Jet command, a 2500sq ft house on a 5000' block of dirt ( which I owned, not the govt ) and not a bloody hi rise in sight.
Does anyone here really expect us to give that up for nothing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2) The argument about getting housing on a base ( which does not apply to KA anymore and that was originally what this thread was about, a KA pilot complained to the SCMP ) is a MOOT point, if you had the right of abode in Oz or Pommy land, or Europe, then you would probably have a EU or OZ passport, and unfortunately ( not my fault ) CX would just play the same cards. It needs to be added at this point that none of the guys on a base get ANY allowances, alot of those guys are not living in their home country either.

3) I am afraid I have to agree with Trev, the local guys ( sorry about the offensive " local " terminology ) are very quiet when it comes to any industrial action, in spite of this, the Gweilo DPA have managed to get some extra allowances for the local guys, this of course goes completely unmentioned in the one sided SCMP article. I would have thought that was a royal kick in the guts for the DPA guys.

4) You can't go calling the AOA racist or discriminatory, they have done absolutely all for any CX pilots, and that is unlikely to change any time soon.

5) HKID,HKID, HKID, it does not matter, we are not from here, we essentially do not wan't to be here, not because as I am sure it will be or has been suggested, we are racists, WE JUST LIKE OUR HOME for better or worse.

6) In Oz, and I can only speak for Oz, as a resident and taxpayer you are entitled to ( not after 7 years !! ) ALL benefits, the same as a person born there, Education, Medical ( the public medical craps on HK ), even unemployment benefits, yes thats right, we don't kick you out of the country when you lose your job, so who's country is racist and discriminatory ??? I think I will lobby for all expats to get full local benefits from day 1.
Now hands up how many of you local guys are with me on that one........Yep, thought so.
About as much chance of changing that as of getting CX and KA to pay locals expat benefits....Buckleys.

Signal8, how is Trevfly a racist ? What he said actually happened, so once again who is discriminating ? Facts, not emotive rubbish comments.

Sirhcttarp, Mate, Mate, Mate, I live in a nice part of HK in a nice large flat by HK standards, apart from sucking in the crap in the air I am still living at about 50% of the " superior " conditions I enjoyed at home. I take it you think I should live in another country in even worse conditions still, that's nice and non discriminatory.

Mullah, if you think cadets, initially, are held to the same standards as direct entries then you are smoking way too much crack, and on that subject, Cadets are not equal in that they are not eligible for command, under KA guidelines for around 7 years ( 7yrs x 700 hrs ) whereas a direct entry pilot is usually eligible after a year.

A guaranteed job when you complete your training: The only time that the job becomes a guaranteed offer is after we come back to HKG to sign the CX contract which then gives us a seniority number. Completion of the cadet course is in itself not a guarantee of employment. It's interesting to note that DE guys sign and receive seniority + pay before heading down to ADL to complete JTS and their CAD exams. Locals have to pass everything first. Another slight difference to note, and not in the locals favour either.

Mullah, you complain that some of your questions are not answered and happily skip over the fact that Cadets have ZERO financial risk, OK they may not have a gauranteed job but they do not fork out upwards of 700,000HKD and have to worry about living expenses. Do you think our Mummies and Daddies supported us during our training ? No, well who then. ( OK, I do concede a few would have had mum and dads support )

Can any of you argue that your conditions are different to what you signed up for ??
No ?, well why did you sign for something you are not happy with ?

Once again, SUPPLY and DEMAND.
we are only here because CX and KA need us, with 1.4 Billion people jus to the North and 1/3 of the population of Australia here in HK I will leave you to decide why that is.
But need us here and they have to pay accordingly.

Even on local T&Cs you are still getting paid more than 50% of the pilots in the world, FACT, if you don't like it then along with everyone else you can just apply elsewhere, can't you ? ( or don't you want to leave home ? )

[Kitsune]

If I was a really, really devious CX manager I might be beavering away quietly working up reasons for the Hong Kong SAR Government to declare expatriate benefits discriminatory, just as they did with the Civil Service's expat package.....

[iceman50]

If that's the case Kitsune why do "local" CS still have the ability to send their children to boarding school outside Hong Kong?

Sirhcttarp

I did say that your medical benefits depended upon when you joined. The "expat" has various levels of medical coverage depending upon date of joining!

The FOC is EY class, unless you are a Captain, Pr 4 to home ticketing port, 4 sectors NOT via HKG and Pr 11 for a destination other than home ticketing port, thus the same as a local. The FOC for the "expat" was initially introduced instead of the travel fund, but now everyone gets it, to make it fair.

Mullah lite

As for education allowance you cannot claim it then stick it in the bank, that is fraud, you have to show receipts. Are you sure you work for CX?

[40Deg STH]

Just a question!!!

If expats all leave tomorrow, can CX still keep going?

[Lowkoon]

No, they would fold overnight. The fact that the expat conditions remain are an admission of this fact. They arent a charity by any stretch of the imagination. If they could ditch us all, the dismissal letters would hit our mailbox with the ink dripping wet.

[Guava Tree]

We all know that eyesight is a big problem for many local wannabee pilots, but for those of us locals who have the eyesight medical and aptitude requirements, we should be rewarded with the “rate for the job”. Without proper incentive how will the local Hong Kong pilot contingent ever increase in number?
As a long term CX shareholder I totally oppose this discrimination which I believe is against the long term interests of our company.
Funny how, as core employees, we get a lower rate for the job, but when it comes to possible redundancy due to economic downturn there are few voices to say that Hong Kong People should be last out.
Is CX being run in the interests of its shareholders?

[cx252]

He end result is that, EXPATS get EXPAT package, some LOCALs get EXPAT package if they do something that the EXPATS have done, LOCALS don't get EXPAT package, but LOCALS that do exactly what EXPATS don't get EXPAT package. Now if this is not confusing I don't know what is.

deng...deng...leng...deng... B-R-A-V-O..

[happy nightflyer]

This thread is extremely tedious - all of you please stop posting.

[Guava Tree]

Sorry I think many of us may be lost here except we may accept that Fife is, in parts, a most excelent region of Scotland.
Romanised Chinese characters like this
deng...deng...leng...deng...
without any tonal clue are essentially meaningless.
Pprune is an English Language Forum.
Please translate into English.

[Mullah Lite]

Iceman 50

Yes I do, though I do not have kids myself and wouldn't be an authority on how the education allowance system can be manipulated, but I do know of expats sending their children to local schools. I'm not a tax expert so I wouldn't have the first notion of how to hide the numbers. I'll be the first to admit that someone else would be better equipped to explain that one.

Fooey, you're not the only one getting frustrated at the arguments here. Both sides are hitting each other's brick walls.

<Mullah, if you think cadets, initially, are held to the same standards as direct entries then you are smoking way too much crack, and on that subject, Cadets are not equal in that they are not eligible for command, under KA guidelines for around 7 years ( 7yrs x 700 hrs ) whereas a direct entry pilot is usually eligible after a year.>

Ok, well, you've said the operative word yourself: initially. If you think that a local FO or CMNDR checked to the same standards as you deserves less than you get, and I've emphasised especially when they get their command, then in all fairness, you are the one smoking crack. Interesting point about a 6 year discrepancy between cmnd eligibility at KA. FYI a similar though less severe comparison happens in CX whereby a cadet enters as a grade C S/O whereas a DE guy enters as grade B, i.e. the cadet has at least another year in the SO position than someone who is DE. But by the time they all QL, I give the C&T department here at CX enough credit that they are checking to a minimum standard to line, regardless of background. In none of my arguments previously have I tried to convey that cadets don't have to work to get to the same standard as anyone else and that this takes time. But eventually, it does happen. Or they Cat D. And when all dues are paid, they are on a level playing field. That's all.

<Mullah, you complain that some of your questions are not answered and happily skip over the fact that Cadets have ZERO financial risk, OK they may not have a gauranteed job but they do not fork out upwards of 700,000HKD and have to worry about living expenses. Do you think our Mummies and Daddies supported us during our training ? No, well who then. ( OK, I do concede a few would have had mum and dads support )>

Zero financial risk.... I have a differing opinion about it, so would the breadwinning guys (albeit few) who've had to be away from their wives and give up their jobs to take the risk of passing the course, and contrary to what you say I've been over this point before, and the only way I can perhaps take on a different perspective is by quantifying the discrepancy in income at the end of a local's career and an expat's one. I do not believe this is an appropriate forum to publish the numbers since it is public for any joe schmoe to read, but if you choose to do them yourself when you have a moment and are feeling bored, tell me if you really don't think an initial 700 000 HKD injection pales in comparison to the end result of your calculations. I'll give you a hint: you end up making literally double in pocket what a local makes. So once again, and now I direct the question at you, since you've so happily volunteered to answer it: is that fair?

[johnjohnpoon]

Here is Hong Kong. Like it or not, the goverment should protect local labours.

Expats in HK stepping on our local policies? how ridiculous. I wouldn't say a word if the Australian government decides to kick all expats out of Australia. They have the right to do so. What did Obama say? Buy American!

[Follow the Follow Me]

The KA cadet scheme should be terminated. It is purely financially and politically motivated. The experience levels and limited capabilities are high risk.

If local pilots were to get expatriate benefits the cadet scheme would die overnight as it just is not economically viable.

Some of the incidents by senior local pilots are nothing short of spectacular. An expat would have been sacked. Again, it is political.

[Follow the Follow Me]

jjpoon

WTF are you on about?

Protect local labour? You are protected. Read the above.

Don't push it too far. You are worth what you are worth. Like it or not.

[Dragon69]

The whole argument is based on envy and jealousy. The principle facts stated on this thread by many are being overlooked by skewed reasoning to justify a demand.

If all expats were sent back from where they were employed, which was (and maybe still is) the master plan, so that only LEPs remained based in HKG, would you still pursue the expat allowances, or would you then be satisfied with your current package???

[Mullah Lite]

Morning EngineOut

Look, I know how hard it was to start from the bottom of the GA ladder, because I did the same thing. I took out a loan, worked my pants off getting my licences, then worked them off even more earning scraps doing odd jobs. I actually qualified for food stamps on four of my salaried years. And never in my previous posts have I said that that method of climbing the ladder was a walk in the park, i.e. I have never diminished the recognition of the efforts that anyone has put into their careers to get here.

But I'm sorry really cannot agree with you when you say that the cadetship is a relative walk in the park because for quite a few of the guys who do it, that's the their only shot of getting into the business. They don't come from places that have a GA/military system that they can break into and work whilst learning. And as such the pressure to succeed doing the cadetship factors very high. Though as you and I both know how it might have been a struggle to cope with working and learning at the same time, we were in an environment that offered choices to climb that ladder. That opportunity is not present in HKG. It's a one shot deal here. I can understand where you are coming from but I must beg to differ.

With regards to the grade C/B SO thing, I wasn't making a comparison to a cadet vs. a DE guy joining, I was just saying that there are similar discrepancies made in CX as fooey was pointing out at KA, though it's not a 6 year gap in qualification standard. That's all.

And yes, I do believe that the QL is a set standard for everyone across the board. Would a QL check be any easier for an ex cadet as opposed to a DESO? I've mentioned before in previous posts that there comes a time when everyone has to reach a benchmark standard here, or else the same argument could go for someone who has thousands of military fast jet instruction time should qualify for more than the average joiner in the company, at any level. But that's not the case, because he QLs the same as you do after passing all the right hurdles, and so do the LEPS. And he reeives his 4 bars the same as you do after even more hurdles, as do the LEPS.

With regards to the basings issue, I've already argued towards lifestyle parity on base being the focus of my advocation. My previous post to fooey was to highlight a point of disparity.

The Lite's out.....all other comments (no doubt repetitive) towards LEPS not having the right to equal career rewards, please refer to previous posts which I think make for at least some table discussion and not immediate dismissal. Here's another breadcrumb that I will throw in: CP 2 was a course designed to convert the flight engineers to pilot positions, the course for conversion paid for in its entirety by the company (so no financial risk, as some would say). They had as many hours flying aircraft (as opposed to operating, which none of us can touch because they are all walking encyclopaedias of systems operation) as a cadet did coming out of ADL. Are they as such cadets...and entitled to local scales? Or are their expat A scales still valid?

<fin>

[iceman50]

Mullah

You don't seem to get it do you. Cathay does not pay its expats like other expats in HKG, i.e we do NOT get the Housing Allowance or Education Allowance as a lump sum to spend as we see fit. Leases, receipts etc are all required, in your world my friend the ICAC and Company would be all over you like a rash and I think your next home would be courtesy of the Correctional Services Department.

Wake up! You are not being done down you have EXACTLY the same basic salary and flying pay!!!, Take away your green eyes.

[Flap10]

Kitsune,

Is it really fair for an expat to live abroad and not be able to invest. You really expect expats to return home after 15+ years with nothing to show for but a useless provident fund??