SCMP article re: local v expat terms
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Oh the narcotic effect of bait. Just when I thought I was out...they draw me back in.
EngineOut, the fact that cadets will not be half a mill out of pocket, unlike some expats, is undeniable. And as for the military guys, although their training is paid for, they repaid it back in dividends by serving their countries. Which, if we're talking about quantifying servitude rendered for achieving a flying ideal, would be pretty much near the top. But never in this lifetime will I use that as a valid caveat to justify that anyone who risked their lives defending their countries is more worthy of a CX/KA position than someone who joined flying pencils in the outback for years and years having to use burning tyres for runway lights (although I'm sure some would beg to differ!). The basis of my argument stems from achieving a certain standard to pass the thresholds that all of us have to pass, be it the interview, the induction, the STI, the QL, the 3 bar check and so on. I think this is especially pertinent to the LEP captains, though as I have conceded before, there are dues to be paid by anyone coming out of ADL in their initial years of service. But by the time that anyone becomes a captain, they will have been through a damned good dose of the CX/KA system to merit equal terms as their counterparts. Surely 10+ years of being paid half is enough to warrant that, regardless of whether they had 10 years experience prior to joining the airline. If the argument that X number of years prior to joining the airline will always be used as the set standard from which the comparison must begin, then in effect that is saying a local captain who starts commanding from year 1 is essentially still X years behind an expat who starts commanding at the same time. And with little trepidation, I would say that the same basis would go for expats and locals who pass their QL at the same time. Isn't egalitarianism a good thing?
The birthright thing...ngggyeahalright...that could spiral into anything from I was born in the Sudan to I was born in the back of a Tristar so a bit shaky to make any argument from I suppose. Just luck of the draw so I concede that one to you. But unfortunate nonetheless that HKG presents no opportunity for locals to get a flying job of any sort...not even washing the Zlin that GFS just got.
Dear pill, there is something that stops locals from leaving and getting a job elsewhere on expat terms. CX/KA is one of the few places where the housing benefits are structured in such a way that, if you don't piss it all away at the gayviator, allows you to build equity...whereas the benefits provided by the sandstirrers and bugolgi boxes do not because the benefits agreements do not permit contribution towards a mortgage....rent only, or provided accomodation. In essence that would mean despite the rent free living overseas, a chunk would have to come out of basic salary to pay off a place back home (here in HKG for locals) with no opportunity to accrue assets in the foreign country that we would work in. That's the same as staying here....really. I could be wrong now since I haven't been keeping up with jobsearch and haven't looked into expat packages elsewhere for a few years now, but I'm all ears if someone corrects my position.
True that guys on a base do not do not do not do not do not get anything, not even 13th month (which is really sick). But it must be nice to retreat to large open spaces, clean air, a proper house with a tiled roof and garage, kids having time to play and not doing homework till 11:30 at night. And while we're on the subject of living standards, what sort of human being wouldn't want the same for the guys and their kids working right next to them on the assembly line? Is it that awful a thought to imagine a local family being afforded the same living space as an expat-on-base? Sadly it would take more than an expat A scale package to afford in HKG what some can afford in their domiciles, but locals aren't asking for that. Just something that can help them live the same as the guys who live here alongside them. Is that so unfair a proposition?
The worms in the can keep crawling out. Can the lid ever be closed?
EngineOut, the fact that cadets will not be half a mill out of pocket, unlike some expats, is undeniable. And as for the military guys, although their training is paid for, they repaid it back in dividends by serving their countries. Which, if we're talking about quantifying servitude rendered for achieving a flying ideal, would be pretty much near the top. But never in this lifetime will I use that as a valid caveat to justify that anyone who risked their lives defending their countries is more worthy of a CX/KA position than someone who joined flying pencils in the outback for years and years having to use burning tyres for runway lights (although I'm sure some would beg to differ!). The basis of my argument stems from achieving a certain standard to pass the thresholds that all of us have to pass, be it the interview, the induction, the STI, the QL, the 3 bar check and so on. I think this is especially pertinent to the LEP captains, though as I have conceded before, there are dues to be paid by anyone coming out of ADL in their initial years of service. But by the time that anyone becomes a captain, they will have been through a damned good dose of the CX/KA system to merit equal terms as their counterparts. Surely 10+ years of being paid half is enough to warrant that, regardless of whether they had 10 years experience prior to joining the airline. If the argument that X number of years prior to joining the airline will always be used as the set standard from which the comparison must begin, then in effect that is saying a local captain who starts commanding from year 1 is essentially still X years behind an expat who starts commanding at the same time. And with little trepidation, I would say that the same basis would go for expats and locals who pass their QL at the same time. Isn't egalitarianism a good thing?
The birthright thing...ngggyeahalright...that could spiral into anything from I was born in the Sudan to I was born in the back of a Tristar so a bit shaky to make any argument from I suppose. Just luck of the draw so I concede that one to you. But unfortunate nonetheless that HKG presents no opportunity for locals to get a flying job of any sort...not even washing the Zlin that GFS just got.
Dear pill, there is something that stops locals from leaving and getting a job elsewhere on expat terms. CX/KA is one of the few places where the housing benefits are structured in such a way that, if you don't piss it all away at the gayviator, allows you to build equity...whereas the benefits provided by the sandstirrers and bugolgi boxes do not because the benefits agreements do not permit contribution towards a mortgage....rent only, or provided accomodation. In essence that would mean despite the rent free living overseas, a chunk would have to come out of basic salary to pay off a place back home (here in HKG for locals) with no opportunity to accrue assets in the foreign country that we would work in. That's the same as staying here....really. I could be wrong now since I haven't been keeping up with jobsearch and haven't looked into expat packages elsewhere for a few years now, but I'm all ears if someone corrects my position.
True that guys on a base do not do not do not do not do not get anything, not even 13th month (which is really sick). But it must be nice to retreat to large open spaces, clean air, a proper house with a tiled roof and garage, kids having time to play and not doing homework till 11:30 at night. And while we're on the subject of living standards, what sort of human being wouldn't want the same for the guys and their kids working right next to them on the assembly line? Is it that awful a thought to imagine a local family being afforded the same living space as an expat-on-base? Sadly it would take more than an expat A scale package to afford in HKG what some can afford in their domiciles, but locals aren't asking for that. Just something that can help them live the same as the guys who live here alongside them. Is that so unfair a proposition?
The worms in the can keep crawling out. Can the lid ever be closed?
Last edited by Mullah Lite; 25th Feb 2009 at 05:47.
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this sort of argument again... whats quoting and correcting each other going to prove or correct or do other than stroking your own egoes ... expats gets housing while locals don't is a fact and nothing will change with debating and arguing in a rumours forum. Its not that I am happy with the way things are, i for myself is a local, but afterall when we join the company we did sign the contract we signed. I would be happy ofcourse if the company would eventually be kind enough to give us something or anything since that would be beyond the contract terms in which i originally signed. Some of u said its against HK LAW for this type of "discrimination", and i totally argree with you that to some degree this situation is true. But until AOA finally does something and find significant backing in our claim with the HK court, no arguing is going to help the situation...it just wastes your time and effort. Hope i didn;t offend anyone nor my fellow brothers and sister...
Hey, I seem to recall having my tail feathers shot off in a similar thread a while back.
Expats are EXPATS, we wouldn't be here if you didn't "show us the money"
SIMPLE REALLY.
from the dictionary:
expatriate ( eks-pat-ree-it ) n 1. person living outside his or her native country. - adj. 2. Living outside one's native country. expatriation n.
Now the locals are great guys and deserve all they can get, but at the end of the day they are NOT Expats.
Get it?
Oh, and it's supply and demand that drive the package expats are offered, nothing else. If Cx could fulfill all of their Pilot requirements with 100% locals I would not have been offered my job.............Who knows? in 10 years they might just be able to.............nah.
All of your arguments about expats thinking they are better than locals or that locals are just as deserving as expats are nice but don't mean diddly squat really.
Expats are EXPATS, we wouldn't be here if you didn't "show us the money"
SIMPLE REALLY.
from the dictionary:
expatriate ( eks-pat-ree-it ) n 1. person living outside his or her native country. - adj. 2. Living outside one's native country. expatriation n.
Now the locals are great guys and deserve all they can get, but at the end of the day they are NOT Expats.
Get it?
Oh, and it's supply and demand that drive the package expats are offered, nothing else. If Cx could fulfill all of their Pilot requirements with 100% locals I would not have been offered my job.............Who knows? in 10 years they might just be able to.............nah.
All of your arguments about expats thinking they are better than locals or that locals are just as deserving as expats are nice but don't mean diddly squat really.
Last edited by ACMS; 25th Feb 2009 at 11:03.
expats gets housing while locals don't
Cyrex, you do get something more than your salary. As a local Captain you get $24,000 housing allowance don't you? or should we call it by another name to suit your arguement? Monthly hardship allowance perhaps?
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For an easy solution, we should put all expats into apartments out in Gold Coast just like our expat cabin crew. I believe that's a perfect fit for the lifestyle they're used to, with a yacht club, open seaview, and far away from town. They can all whine about not being able to support the numerous cars, boats, planes, wives, gf's, bf's, or whatever they're into in that little clubhouse there.
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ACMS.... not starting an arguement... just to let you know more regarding company policy... the 24000$ allowance is paid to all managerial staff ( i think they call these people CAT D staff) regardless if they are aircrew or office. And as a local captain yes you are eligible for this allowance. "Hardship allowance" .. please don't think all locals are beggers on the street or something less than you ACMS..
I don't really care what you call it as it doesn't matter a toss. It is $24,000 over AND above your pay. As an expat they call it "Housing", as a local they call it "special allowance". whoop de doo dah day.
Whatever buddy...............
I'll repeat what I said before but this time use bigger font just for you
it's supply and demand that drive the package expats are offered, nothing else. If Cx could fulfill all of their Pilot requirements with 100% locals I would not have been offered my job.............Who knows? in 10 years they might just be able to.............nah.
All of your arguments about expats thinking they are better than locals or that locals are just as deserving as expats are nice but don't mean diddly squat really.
Whatever buddy...............
I'll repeat what I said before but this time use bigger font just for you
it's supply and demand that drive the package expats are offered, nothing else. If Cx could fulfill all of their Pilot requirements with 100% locals I would not have been offered my job.............Who knows? in 10 years they might just be able to.............nah.
All of your arguments about expats thinking they are better than locals or that locals are just as deserving as expats are nice but don't mean diddly squat really.
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agree all the experties from everywhere else in the world. so Back to the topic? the SCMP post? these "local" terms drivers should get the expat terms becoz they have gone down the GA route elsewhere?!?
clearly a discriminating case?! perhaps?
clearly a discriminating case?! perhaps?
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ACMS, then by that same argument, all the expats who now hold permanent HKID cards would, in naturalisation terms, make them locals. Would it be fair to pull the carpet from underneath their feet, because of the change of their domicile status?
Lite
Lite
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Most definately NOT,because...
When all these expats joined,their terms and conditions stated "EXPAT CoS"...
The fact that they now have permanent HKID's is an arangement between them and the HKG government..it has sweet blow all to do with CX..
It's all about the conditions under which you joined..you know the deal,either like it or not..and then sign up or don't sign up...plain and simple..
When all these expats joined,their terms and conditions stated "EXPAT CoS"...
The fact that they now have permanent HKID's is an arangement between them and the HKG government..it has sweet blow all to do with CX..
It's all about the conditions under which you joined..you know the deal,either like it or not..and then sign up or don't sign up...plain and simple..
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all the expats who now hold permanent HKID cards would, in naturalisation terms, make them locals.
new ideas for the bean counters to cut costs.
after cutting the sandwitches in some flights... what's next?!? couldn't get any finer eh. don't we all hear about the rumoured COS 09 or 10?
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But surely it does. An expat CoS is for expats....local CoS is for locals. Wasn't that the basis of the argument in the first place? A permanent residency status now entitles you to all the same things that a local is entitled to that you would otherwise (theoretically) would have had to pay for out of pocket (hence the existence of an expat package)....free schooling at local schools for your children, free health services at local government run hospitals without incurring extra costs, the right of passage into and out of HKG without renewing work visas via company sponsorship.
Sorry to be blunt in my thought process here but how is that not an acute double standard. Who was it who said something about locals having cake and eating it too? That bullet has just ricocheted if I may say so.
Speaking of ducking bullets, goodnight everyone.
Sorry to be blunt in my thought process here but how is that not an acute double standard. Who was it who said something about locals having cake and eating it too? That bullet has just ricocheted if I may say so.
Speaking of ducking bullets, goodnight everyone.
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Here's a suggestion about supply and demand for ya ACMS, since we have a surplus (
a.k.a. supply more than demand) of pilots, why don't we start chopping the more costly bunch (a.k.a. expats) to get it right back to where the balance should be? Should help to pay our anti-trust fine that way and maybe even produce a tiny bonus for the remaining tens of thousands of "local AND expat" employees in the firm. That could work with a mandatory unpaid leave too if we so desire to keep these expensive surplus just in case we can't get enough DEFO's to fill their spots once the economy picks up again. Wonder if these babies would cry foul when the "locals" dodge a bullet when the pink slips start flying. Oh wait, we can't do that cause it's called "DISCRIMINATION"!!!! 
WA WA WA, I can't support my kids that have to be put through the same private school that the locals go as well. WA WA WA, I can't support my family back in wherever they are. WA WA WA, my ex-wives are taking all my money. WA WA WA, I can't afford the mortgage for my 2000 sq ft apartment in mid-levels. LOOK, the river is overflowing already. 
If one is here short term just for the dough, granted, he deserves to be paid like a king. But if one decides to call this home and eventually become a permanent ID holder/residence, then live like one. If the "locals" could live a decent life without housing allowance from Day 1, I'm sure these "ex-expats" could too, unless of course if they're bunch of girlie pu$$ies who can't really get out of their fantasy world into the real world. But why wouldn't I be surprised? Oops, I can't say that can I? I'm "DISCRIMINATING"!!!!
Last but not least, let's not forget our CoS is signed to be changed without consultation. So don't be surprised when your "expat" CoS is uni-laterally changed into a "local" CoS, which has been done before with HKID holding DESO, who paid their own way through training just like the so-called "expats". You do have a choice you know, if you don't like it, you could go up there and simply says "I QUIT". And we'll all say bravo and wish you best of luck with ur new gig out in the sandpit.
I'm sure the locals there won't have as big of an issue with discrimination as in HKG and u'll get to keep your housing allowance too.
a.k.a. supply more than demand) of pilots, why don't we start chopping the more costly bunch (a.k.a. expats) to get it right back to where the balance should be? Should help to pay our anti-trust fine that way and maybe even produce a tiny bonus for the remaining tens of thousands of "local AND expat" employees in the firm. That could work with a mandatory unpaid leave too if we so desire to keep these expensive surplus just in case we can't get enough DEFO's to fill their spots once the economy picks up again. Wonder if these babies would cry foul when the "locals" dodge a bullet when the pink slips start flying. Oh wait, we can't do that cause it's called "DISCRIMINATION"!!!! WA WA WA, I can't support my kids that have to be put through the same private school that the locals go as well. WA WA WA, I can't support my family back in wherever they are. WA WA WA, my ex-wives are taking all my money. WA WA WA, I can't afford the mortgage for my 2000 sq ft apartment in mid-levels. LOOK, the river is overflowing already. If one is here short term just for the dough, granted, he deserves to be paid like a king. But if one decides to call this home and eventually become a permanent ID holder/residence, then live like one. If the "locals" could live a decent life without housing allowance from Day 1, I'm sure these "ex-expats" could too, unless of course if they're bunch of girlie pu$$ies who can't really get out of their fantasy world into the real world. But why wouldn't I be surprised? Oops, I can't say that can I? I'm "DISCRIMINATING"!!!!
Last but not least, let's not forget our CoS is signed to be changed without consultation. So don't be surprised when your "expat" CoS is uni-laterally changed into a "local" CoS, which has been done before with HKID holding DESO, who paid their own way through training just like the so-called "expats". You do have a choice you know, if you don't like it, you could go up there and simply says "I QUIT". And we'll all say bravo and wish you best of luck with ur new gig out in the sandpit.
I'm sure the locals there won't have as big of an issue with discrimination as in HKG and u'll get to keep your housing allowance too.
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Some of the above posts appear to have been written by a handful of primary school children. What amateurish drivel. Talk about clutching onto emotional straws. If I could miraculously put all locals onto expat conditions I would. Fantastic. However...
The HKID issue is completely irrelevant to your COS. Your COS is based on what you brought to the table, professionally speaking, when you joined CX/KA. Period.
As for having the expat COS pulled from underneath us at some time in the future... Well, perhaps it will and as opposed to those grizzling above who talk the talk without walking the walk you will find many, many leave. As they did from KA over the last year or so prior to some improvements arriving.
The HKID issue is completely irrelevant to your COS. Your COS is based on what you brought to the table, professionally speaking, when you joined CX/KA. Period.
As for having the expat COS pulled from underneath us at some time in the future... Well, perhaps it will and as opposed to those grizzling above who talk the talk without walking the walk you will find many, many leave. As they did from KA over the last year or so prior to some improvements arriving.
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hekokimushi, Mullah etc, you continue to misrepresent the truth. Either your are a bit slow (and I doubt that very much) or you are twisting the facts of the matter to try and make a case.
1. CX have bases in other parts of the world.
2. The locals on those other bases DO NOT get housing/rent, child education etc etc.
3.So an American in America or an Australian in Australia etc DO NOT get expat benefits, why? BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT EXPATS.
Can you comprehend the situation if perhaps it was termed a "living away from home" allowance? You live at home = No living away from home allowance. You live away from home = living away from home allowance.
If your base monthly pay, annual leave, superannuation, advancement opportunities etc etc are the same as everyone else then you are not being discriminated against. The expat allowance is for "living away from home". Why do you feel that you are so special that you should receive extra over and above other people in the CX group who are not expats, working from their home bases who do not get expat allowances? It has nothing to do with race or experience.
And while we are being race discrimination warriors...............where were you when a local Hong Kong operator was sacking staff because they were not locals? Whats that you say..............?
1. CX have bases in other parts of the world.
2. The locals on those other bases DO NOT get housing/rent, child education etc etc.
3.So an American in America or an Australian in Australia etc DO NOT get expat benefits, why? BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT EXPATS.
Can you comprehend the situation if perhaps it was termed a "living away from home" allowance? You live at home = No living away from home allowance. You live away from home = living away from home allowance.
If your base monthly pay, annual leave, superannuation, advancement opportunities etc etc are the same as everyone else then you are not being discriminated against. The expat allowance is for "living away from home". Why do you feel that you are so special that you should receive extra over and above other people in the CX group who are not expats, working from their home bases who do not get expat allowances? It has nothing to do with race or experience.
And while we are being race discrimination warriors...............where were you when a local Hong Kong operator was sacking staff because they were not locals? Whats that you say..............?