Second Officers standing firm
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What about back pay for those who had their accessment delayed, even though they were Cat A, done their STI, and the numbers suggest they should already be on course? I personally know guys that were accessed just before their course, yet had done their STI months in advance. 
I feel very sorry for all of the SO's that have seen their upgrade blown out due to the downturn, yet are flying with DEFO's that are a lot junior to them. Let them make their own bunk I say!
Oh and now that we have about 100 excess pilots, and training is grinding to a halt, why do we need all those C&T Extendees? Wasn't the sole reason they were kept on was to conduct all the training ensuring a quick upgrade?
The things that this company will do to save a few dollars at the expense of their staff.
I feel very sorry for all of the SO's that have seen their upgrade blown out due to the downturn, yet are flying with DEFO's that are a lot junior to them. Let them make their own bunk I say!
Oh and now that we have about 100 excess pilots, and training is grinding to a halt, why do we need all those C&T Extendees? Wasn't the sole reason they were kept on was to conduct all the training ensuring a quick upgrade?
The things that this company will do to save a few dollars at the expense of their staff.
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NR is so adamant that DEFOs do not trigger bypass pay for SOs, has the union taken the position that DEFOs SHOULD trigger it?? I hope that's part of the court case.
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Well done so far AOA, lets take them to court
Is it just me or is NR getting more and more condescending? Let me paraphrase a few of his comments in the latest DFO update.
Yes of course if we assessed everyone after 18 months, we'd be paying a crapload in bypass pay, but we have decided to assess S/Os a week before they upgrade, therefore the number of SOs eligible to receive Bypass Pay by this method is always very small. It's very simple arithmetic here guys. Are you following me??
Yes, we are intentionally slowing down your career by hiring DEFO-Pax F/Os, but because of excellent macroeconomonic conditions, we'll ignore the Contract because you should all be happy to just have jobs.
Yes yes, I realize that the Contract technically says we have to pay bypass pay, but hey, we didn't really update it in a while and it only affects 30 SOs (I just made this up this second out of thin air!). I know I know we've hired 100+ DEFO-PAX F/Os, but again, that is just the "strict interpretation" of what we've done. God! These technical details are giving me a headache.
Listen guys, this is just getting crazy here! Crazy! Going to the courts! Do you know who we are?? Ok ok, let's not do anything rash. Yes, "technically" the Contract states that we have to pay Bypass pay on a one-to-one basis, but I'll tell you what, those 30 S/Os that I just made up, let's upgrade them, since based on a "strict interpretation" of the contract, are entitled to bypass pay (not to mention the 70+ others), and then next year we'll just continue to screw over the rest of the S/Os, once this hopefully becomes water under the bridge. What do you say??!
Contrary to popular belief, the main driver of SO Bypass Pay is not the recruitment of Direct Entry FOs. The recruitment of an FO to the passenger fleet does mean that the next most senior SO, assessed as suitable for upgrade to JFO, should receive Bypass Pay but only until they begin their upgrade course, at which point the liability to award Bypass Pay lapses. As a result the number of SOs eligible to receive Bypass Pay by this method is always very small.
The principle of Bypass Pay is to compensate a crew member for a slow-down in his or her career progression so it is ironic that, since we began extending Check & Trainers beyond normal retirement age, the average time spent as an SO has come down by about 12 months.
The dispute with the AOA, however, is not over the principle of Bypass Pay but the strict interpretation of the wording in the CoS and the Company’s established practice of assessing SOs as suitable for upgrade. In very simple terms it boils down to the payment or non-payment of Bypass Pay to approximately 30 SOs (my estimate).
The AOA is suggesting that we resolve the dispute in the courts. In an effort to avoid such a costly approach for both parties, the Company has tried to think laterally and, this week, we have made a suggestion that we upgrade at least 30 more SOs to JFO in 2009 than the BOP requires. This is based on the assumption that an SO would rather be upgraded to the position of JFO than simply receive the Bypass Pay. We will have a surplus of both SOs and FOs next year and we would prefer to spend the money on 30 JFO salaries rather than any legal fees.
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iflylow:
Excellent narrative. should be posted on the AOA site. I fully expect the GC to turn down the DFOs offer of 30 upgrades if they've got their ears open to the SOs they represent. Sell out the remaining CoS99 SOs for 30 JFO upgrades on pain of NR only doing - 12 - JFOs in 2009? Let the rest of them do 4-5 years without bypass pay while DEFOs fill the Headland and the bays?
No way. It's blackmail and we'll fight it in the courts.
Excellent narrative. should be posted on the AOA site. I fully expect the GC to turn down the DFOs offer of 30 upgrades if they've got their ears open to the SOs they represent. Sell out the remaining CoS99 SOs for 30 JFO upgrades on pain of NR only doing - 12 - JFOs in 2009? Let the rest of them do 4-5 years without bypass pay while DEFOs fill the Headland and the bays?
No way. It's blackmail and we'll fight it in the courts.
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Iflylow, good post. The AOA are keen on adherence to CoS and I don't think a visit to the Labour Department will be as expensive as NR thinks. Much of the work on whether the company can unilaterally change our conditions was done on the Murray Gardener case a few years ago so it's just the specifics to argue.
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Court Costs
The AOA is suggesting that we resolve the dispute in the courts. In an effort to avoid such a costly approach for both parties, the Company has tried to think..... etc
Nick, surely with your, & the company's, experience as a defendant in these types of actions, you must be aware that normally the party at fault is billed for the costs of the prevailing party. That being said, how could this result in "a costly approach for both parties"???. And when did you suddenly start worrying about a costly approach for the AOA???
The truth is that you know that you'll get absolutely roasted if this goes to court, and ultimately, not only will be the company be directed to pay our costs (immediate $$), but a legally solid precedent will be set for the future (ongoing $$). Sort of makes the 30 JFO upgrades look pretty cheap!
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Last on First off
If we are overstaffed with FOs well then how about force leave without pay on those DEFOs still line training whom joined less than 2 months ago, when times were already so tough and we were in the grips of the "tsunami".
Forget about keeping the team together and managements loyalty to those who have been here 2 mins, think of loyalty to those who have been here years.
If cx isn't paying there wage and they don't need to cause they are surplus to current requirements, they will have all the money available for the entitled SO bypass pay!!
The last response from the company is one of blackmail and denial. If NR was so confident that the trigger for bypass pay wouldn't be caused by the employment of DEFO why is that clause even in the CoS !! - wakeup!!
Forget about keeping the team together and managements loyalty to those who have been here 2 mins, think of loyalty to those who have been here years.
If cx isn't paying there wage and they don't need to cause they are surplus to current requirements, they will have all the money available for the entitled SO bypass pay!!
The last response from the company is one of blackmail and denial. If NR was so confident that the trigger for bypass pay wouldn't be caused by the employment of DEFO why is that clause even in the CoS !! - wakeup!!
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Read NR's letter to the AOA on 16th DEC
All S/O's, you need to log onto the AOA's website and read the incoming letter from NR to the AOA. In it, he basically threatens the AOA with either accepting his proposal of only upgrading 30 S/Os as a "one-time" only option (and thereby screwing over all other S/Os) and continue keep C&T Training Captains, or fire some C&T Captain extendees, upgrading only those S/Os absolutely necessary and going to the courts. It is a blatant attempt to try to divide the pilot group. All S/Os need to write an email to [email protected] and tell them that we need to enforce the Contract and go to court.
The only reason NR is offering this compromise is because the Company knows it violated the Contract. The Company would never give away something for nothing. They know they are in trouble and are trying to bargain now. S/Os you need to let your opinion be heard.
All the S/Os who are not in the AOA, please sign up. It is only freaking 200 HKD a month. I mean, geez that is nothing. This is your career and we are talking about millions of HKD at stake.
It's time to cause some noise. Harden up and and stand up for yourselves.
The only reason NR is offering this compromise is because the Company knows it violated the Contract. The Company would never give away something for nothing. They know they are in trouble and are trying to bargain now. S/Os you need to let your opinion be heard.
All the S/Os who are not in the AOA, please sign up. It is only freaking 200 HKD a month. I mean, geez that is nothing. This is your career and we are talking about millions of HKD at stake.
It's time to cause some noise. Harden up and and stand up for yourselves.
Last edited by NoAndThen; 21st Dec 2008 at 02:39.
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Enforce the Contract: Take them to Court
Great posts here guys. Iflylow, your post would be funny if it weren't so true. SweepTheLeg, I agree S/Os, this is your airline if you want it. Step up and make a name for yourselves. For this to happen, you need to want it. All it takes is an email to the AOA, or if you're not in it yet, still send an email to the AOA and tell them you want to sign up.
In this industry, you're only worth as much as you negotiate and fight. The Company knows they're wrong, and they're trying to settle. Don't sell out the rest of the S/Os. Yes, DEFO Pax hiring is of now stopping in 2009. But I guarantee it will start back up when the economy picks up, and we need to make sure that bypass pay will be paid when it does.
This is your airline if you want it. Time to step up to the plate.
In this industry, you're only worth as much as you negotiate and fight. The Company knows they're wrong, and they're trying to settle. Don't sell out the rest of the S/Os. Yes, DEFO Pax hiring is of now stopping in 2009. But I guarantee it will start back up when the economy picks up, and we need to make sure that bypass pay will be paid when it does.
This is your airline if you want it. Time to step up to the plate.
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By the way, as of this post, there are nearly 15,300 views of this thread. Talk can be cheap, but you can't make up that type of interest. This is a huge issue. Time to be part of the solution.
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This should go to court as a matter of principle. It's quite sad that it has to come to this, but money and judicial rulings seems to be the only languages they understand. It's good to see the AOA take firm action; it'll increase recruitment numbers once the show begins.
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Let's hope that the AOA doesn't screw this one up too - I might even join the circus, providing it goes to court!!
NR - enjoy your CX xmas bonus mate,it's gonna be your LAST one!!
NR - enjoy your CX xmas bonus mate,it's gonna be your LAST one!!
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It's Official, We're taking them to court
A little snippet from the latest AOA update:
Thank you AOA, and thank you S/Os in the AOA. For those who are not, I truly wish you luck in negotiating / enforcing your contract individually, with the Company. If you need any help... well, you know what you should do.
Yesterday, 22 December, the first cases were filed at the Labour Tribunal. The average claim is well into six figures, plus 5 days of leave outstanding. We will advise all AOA members, who we think might have been disadvantaged, how to commence a similar claim. We believe there are many FOs, JFOs and SOs who meet the criteria and we will assist them in pursuing their contractual entitlement to bypass pay, benefits and allowances, triggered by extended Captains and direct entry First Officers.
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FACT:
If the SO by pass pay case comes away with a win then CX only has to pay out those people who actually signed the dotted line to be part of the court case.
S/O, JF/Os and possibly some F/O's, i would imagine, get your pens ready for the next installment which i am sure is coming soon.
You have to be in to win!
IFP
If the SO by pass pay case comes away with a win then CX only has to pay out those people who actually signed the dotted line to be part of the court case.
S/O, JF/Os and possibly some F/O's, i would imagine, get your pens ready for the next installment which i am sure is coming soon.
You have to be in to win!
IFP
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As you know, the company always wins. We have more cash to delay court cases than you can imagine. Odds are with this house!
Just wait your turn. No one ever said there was a maximum time be be an SO.
Just wait your turn. No one ever said there was a maximum time be be an SO.
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I've recently spoken to several collegues, who, during discussions surrounding career progression and the current state of affairs, made some arguments that really got me thinking. And it certainly relates to this thread.
By taking RA65 as a given at some point in the foreseeable future, most guys face 20-30 years with Cathay Pacific as their employer. Most will agree that the money, even with a basing, is close to the best rate going at the moment. Selling off your lifestyle, health, family and friends for time in Hong Kong will further increase the coin in the coffer. It might cost you your wife and your kids their lungs, but at least it's your decision to make and won't be forced upon you.
The typical "CX issues" of Checking corrupting the Training, absence of SOPs to the benefit of subjective "conventions", the excessive power-distance gradient found within the culture of the airline, the complete lack of social interaction at outports and the heavy shadow of the 49ers are all issues that most learn to deal with in time, and eventually accept as grievances compensated for by the company in the form of cold, hard cash.
The foul taste that remains is the distrust many feel towards the very company to which they must trust their career, family, health and retirement to. The company has repeatedly shown that it does not require - nor desire - loyal aircrew with lifetime career aspirations. It has mockingly displayed this through its unilateral alterations to our CoS, through the poisoning of our cockpit environment with A,B,C and F scales, through the long list of condescending correspondances from the DFO to our AOA , through its intentional and deceitful CoS breaches, and through its systematic treatment of Aircrew as prostitutes who should be bough, sold and treated as any other commodity. Maybe the airline once valued a loyal, proud, respectful and driven pilot corps, but surely no more. Roy and Sydney must be rolling over in their graves.
Should any pilot, with enough hours and competency to choose his employer, trust the remainder of his career with a company who, without hesitation nor empathy, consistantly interprets the contract beyond recognition of its original intent? Trust a company who recognizes no value in your contribution, nor displays any regret at your resignation? A company who denies its employees to keep pace with the rising cost of living unless a severely damaging amount of resignations are on hand? Trust a company who rewards 9 years of loyality in the right seat by placing a guy off the street into the left?
Certainly, Cathay is probably better then most for some. And the issue isn't really whether or not to join. It's whether or not to stay.
Let Cathays further actions on this courtcase either support or discredit the comments made above. For the moment, beggars can't be choosers. But before that changes, one can only hope that the new FMA understands the damage done.
By taking RA65 as a given at some point in the foreseeable future, most guys face 20-30 years with Cathay Pacific as their employer. Most will agree that the money, even with a basing, is close to the best rate going at the moment. Selling off your lifestyle, health, family and friends for time in Hong Kong will further increase the coin in the coffer. It might cost you your wife and your kids their lungs, but at least it's your decision to make and won't be forced upon you.
The typical "CX issues" of Checking corrupting the Training, absence of SOPs to the benefit of subjective "conventions", the excessive power-distance gradient found within the culture of the airline, the complete lack of social interaction at outports and the heavy shadow of the 49ers are all issues that most learn to deal with in time, and eventually accept as grievances compensated for by the company in the form of cold, hard cash.
The foul taste that remains is the distrust many feel towards the very company to which they must trust their career, family, health and retirement to. The company has repeatedly shown that it does not require - nor desire - loyal aircrew with lifetime career aspirations. It has mockingly displayed this through its unilateral alterations to our CoS, through the poisoning of our cockpit environment with A,B,C and F scales, through the long list of condescending correspondances from the DFO to our AOA , through its intentional and deceitful CoS breaches, and through its systematic treatment of Aircrew as prostitutes who should be bough, sold and treated as any other commodity. Maybe the airline once valued a loyal, proud, respectful and driven pilot corps, but surely no more. Roy and Sydney must be rolling over in their graves.
Should any pilot, with enough hours and competency to choose his employer, trust the remainder of his career with a company who, without hesitation nor empathy, consistantly interprets the contract beyond recognition of its original intent? Trust a company who recognizes no value in your contribution, nor displays any regret at your resignation? A company who denies its employees to keep pace with the rising cost of living unless a severely damaging amount of resignations are on hand? Trust a company who rewards 9 years of loyality in the right seat by placing a guy off the street into the left?
Certainly, Cathay is probably better then most for some. And the issue isn't really whether or not to join. It's whether or not to stay.
Let Cathays further actions on this courtcase either support or discredit the comments made above. For the moment, beggars can't be choosers. But before that changes, one can only hope that the new FMA understands the damage done.