Second Officers standing firm
Cool as a moosp
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Mostly Hong Kong
Posts: 802
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And good to see every week the recruitment figures for the AOA. Lots of S/Os and F/Os and the occasional captain.
The AOA cannot get better until they represent a large majority of the pilots. Keep up the recruitment drive, it is long term thinking but it will be effective.
The AOA cannot get better until they represent a large majority of the pilots. Keep up the recruitment drive, it is long term thinking but it will be effective.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Paradise
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's the spirit(?!?)
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt (1858 - 1919)
How sad it is that there are those who still cower in this day & age, or who still find reasons NOT to join the AOA!
Perhaps the most notable event of the day was the gob-smackingly surprising admission from management that it is not paying ANY SOs bypass pay due to DEFOs, only extendees.
Given that there are in the order of 120+ DEFOs this is truly unbelievable!!
Sure, the SO meeting did not, and quite possibly will not result in any definitive action. BUT, I truly believe it was a watershed event for two reasons:
1. Numbers. 60+ guys united by a common resolve, expressed in no uncertain terms direct to management their dissatisfaction with the company's liberal interpretation of the COS. Some quotes:
"...unethical..."
"...immoral..."
"...all we want is what YOUR contract states!"
...etc.
There were clear, well expressed and ultimately sound arguments from many present. The simple fact that the most asked question (essentially "do you agree that the point of the BPP clause is to recompense SOs for the delay to upgrade as a result of DEFOs?") went ultimately unanswered in Palin-esque, nay, Miss South Carolina-esque replies showed that the management KNOW what they're doing is simply wrong. They can't even stomach their own spin anymore. Squirming was not the word, utter shame would be more apt.
2. Demographic. Adding to the above, it is now clear that the profile of the average SO in the audience showed just how much the DESO to new hire DEFO experience level has shifted. This added more salt to the wounds of many SOs. The SOs currently being discriminated against are not "your mid-twenties single guys with limited experience who couldn't get a real flying job". Almost all in the audience were 30+ guys (many with spouses/families) and bringing 10+ years of airline and/or military flying experience to Cathay. These are not types who shrink from expressing what they think for fear of their jobs. And despite the fact that management said "many of you here wouldn't have qualified for the DEFO entry anyway" (as if that was reason enough to now NOT pay bypass pay!) I would like give kudos to the gent who politely pointed out his 7000 hours of jet time, including considerable command time, would more than qualify him. Further, the follow up comment from one manager that "...it's good to see that you all think you could be FOs in Cathay, I like your confidence..." set new standards in condescension.
Fact is, the BPP clause in COS99 was expressly intended to prevent the sort of thing that's happening right now. We all know it, the company knows it, and most importantly of all the the company knows first hand that WE ARE NOT HAPPY about it.
Unfortunately, the only language that the company will listen to is legal-ese.
Brilliant job AOA, brilliant work SOs.
Solidarity brothers! (and sisters!)
Theodore Roosevelt (1858 - 1919)
How sad it is that there are those who still cower in this day & age, or who still find reasons NOT to join the AOA!
Perhaps the most notable event of the day was the gob-smackingly surprising admission from management that it is not paying ANY SOs bypass pay due to DEFOs, only extendees.
Given that there are in the order of 120+ DEFOs this is truly unbelievable!!
Sure, the SO meeting did not, and quite possibly will not result in any definitive action. BUT, I truly believe it was a watershed event for two reasons:
1. Numbers. 60+ guys united by a common resolve, expressed in no uncertain terms direct to management their dissatisfaction with the company's liberal interpretation of the COS. Some quotes:
"...unethical..."
"...immoral..."
"...all we want is what YOUR contract states!"
...etc.
There were clear, well expressed and ultimately sound arguments from many present. The simple fact that the most asked question (essentially "do you agree that the point of the BPP clause is to recompense SOs for the delay to upgrade as a result of DEFOs?") went ultimately unanswered in Palin-esque, nay, Miss South Carolina-esque replies showed that the management KNOW what they're doing is simply wrong. They can't even stomach their own spin anymore. Squirming was not the word, utter shame would be more apt.
2. Demographic. Adding to the above, it is now clear that the profile of the average SO in the audience showed just how much the DESO to new hire DEFO experience level has shifted. This added more salt to the wounds of many SOs. The SOs currently being discriminated against are not "your mid-twenties single guys with limited experience who couldn't get a real flying job". Almost all in the audience were 30+ guys (many with spouses/families) and bringing 10+ years of airline and/or military flying experience to Cathay. These are not types who shrink from expressing what they think for fear of their jobs. And despite the fact that management said "many of you here wouldn't have qualified for the DEFO entry anyway" (as if that was reason enough to now NOT pay bypass pay!) I would like give kudos to the gent who politely pointed out his 7000 hours of jet time, including considerable command time, would more than qualify him. Further, the follow up comment from one manager that "...it's good to see that you all think you could be FOs in Cathay, I like your confidence..." set new standards in condescension.
Fact is, the BPP clause in COS99 was expressly intended to prevent the sort of thing that's happening right now. We all know it, the company knows it, and most importantly of all the the company knows first hand that WE ARE NOT HAPPY about it.
Unfortunately, the only language that the company will listen to is legal-ese.
Brilliant job AOA, brilliant work SOs.
Solidarity brothers! (and sisters!)
Join Date: May 2006
Location: mars
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There seemed to be alot more that 60 there, more like close to 100 S/Os!
As for the company, the impression I got, is they really didnt give a hoot and they seemed quite happy justifying that they didnt have to pay a cent of BPP, and were in complete denial that it was delaying S/O progression. Who cares about maintaining staff loyalty eh? I guess they can buy it at DEFO rates these days....
All the more reason for CC. Hopefully some of you guys will stop bending over and stop coming in on your days off.
Out of interest, where exactly are the Pax DEFOs based, and are they now on all fleets? I've been only able to count about 70 on the 777 and Airbus off the ASL. At a guess about 30 extendeee CNs and DECs.
As for the company, the impression I got, is they really didnt give a hoot and they seemed quite happy justifying that they didnt have to pay a cent of BPP, and were in complete denial that it was delaying S/O progression. Who cares about maintaining staff loyalty eh? I guess they can buy it at DEFO rates these days....
All the more reason for CC. Hopefully some of you guys will stop bending over and stop coming in on your days off.
Out of interest, where exactly are the Pax DEFOs based, and are they now on all fleets? I've been only able to count about 70 on the 777 and Airbus off the ASL. At a guess about 30 extendeee CNs and DECs.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would like give kudos to the gent who politely pointed out his 7000 hours of jet time, including considerable command time, would more than qualify him.
All things considered, it really doesn't say all that much for the guys thought process.
I have to laugh about all this.
Here we have somewhat experienced folks applying for a very junior position, one that might be seen to be attractive for, perhaps, a 500 hour pilot.
Quite frankly, it....
1) doesn't say much for the recruiting process at CX, and
2) doesn't say much for the applicant, either.
Seems to me that CX just asked for trouble accepting these guys in the first place....now they clearly have problems with 'em, now.
An unsavory situation, at best.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Probably didn't want to be flying beat up sh*tty old TriStars
However, plenty of jobs elsewhere for experienced guys, so one wonders...just what is the draw for CX, seeing as how they are now turning the screws on SO's...and others...and there is, under HK law, absolutely nothing the employees can do about it.
AOA, or no AOA.
Hey 411A why do new joiners need L1011 time to be "of any use to an L10 operator" anyway?
Is other Jet time no good forn the mighty tristar?
Is the Tristar that hard to fly?
I have a lot of mates that flew the old girl and NONE of them said it was hard.
Is other Jet time no good forn the mighty tristar?
Is the Tristar that hard to fly?
I have a lot of mates that flew the old girl and NONE of them said it was hard.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 352
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Superfrozo: excellent post.
Kitsune, Badair, etc: Click on User CP and at the bottom of the menu that appears on the left there's a handy function that will save you time in the future not having to waste your precious time reading ill thought out irrelevancies from from those who habitually post them!
Kitsune, Badair, etc: Click on User CP and at the bottom of the menu that appears on the left there's a handy function that will save you time in the future not having to waste your precious time reading ill thought out irrelevancies from from those who habitually post them!
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reeftrip,
Do you mean like all the Captains that stood together in 1999 and post 2001? I rather stand-alone and watch my own back thanks, but that’s a thread drift.
It would have been nice for the rest to know as some Captains and First Officers may have shown up for support.
God forbid wearing something yellow.
I can ensure you, all S/O were accounted for. CX is a very vindictive company and all name are accounted for. That is who they are.
But hell, it doesn’t affect the me syndrome that will take precedence.
Stop picking on 411, he has feeling too!
Do you mean like all the Captains that stood together in 1999 and post 2001? I rather stand-alone and watch my own back thanks, but that’s a thread drift.
It would have been nice for the rest to know as some Captains and First Officers may have shown up for support.
God forbid wearing something yellow.
I can ensure you, all S/O were accounted for. CX is a very vindictive company and all name are accounted for. That is who they are.
But hell, it doesn’t affect the me syndrome that will take precedence.
Stop picking on 411, he has feeling too!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: World's biggest Bunker
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
411a
As far as experience goes, just about everyone I joined with as S/O's had over 5000 hours and jet time. Some were offered DEFO jobs on the frieghter, but with a start date a year later, guess they figured it would be better to be a year up the sen. list. Some wanted to come to HK. Not an option for DEFO's on the frieghter.
I can understand how some of them are upset that the RQ DEFO they are sitting beside has less experience in general, in the company and on type. And I can understand how some of the JFO are upset that the RQ DEFO they are sitting beside who has less experience in general and less time in the company, did less sectors to check to the line, and didn't have to do a QL, and took the base that they now can't get.
As far as experience goes, just about everyone I joined with as S/O's had over 5000 hours and jet time. Some were offered DEFO jobs on the frieghter, but with a start date a year later, guess they figured it would be better to be a year up the sen. list. Some wanted to come to HK. Not an option for DEFO's on the frieghter.
I can understand how some of them are upset that the RQ DEFO they are sitting beside has less experience in general, in the company and on type. And I can understand how some of the JFO are upset that the RQ DEFO they are sitting beside who has less experience in general and less time in the company, did less sectors to check to the line, and didn't have to do a QL, and took the base that they now can't get.
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: somewhere above the sea
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Did any of the S/O's at the meeting ask why they still have to endure an upgrade interview, the rank of JFO and then a QL check to become F/O's?
All this while these DEFOs- who are an unknown quantity to CX in terms of their performance are just given their 3 bars after bear minimum sim and line training.
S/O's who have a 3+ year training/checking file with CX, are subjected to far more rigorous standards than someone off the street- this is crazy!
All this while these DEFOs- who are an unknown quantity to CX in terms of their performance are just given their 3 bars after bear minimum sim and line training.
S/O's who have a 3+ year training/checking file with CX, are subjected to far more rigorous standards than someone off the street- this is crazy!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
411A has posted some fairly contentious stuff here in the past. A lot of times it’s been posted as a wind up, sometimes just to inflame and other times to insult. Sometimes there’s something that shows he might have half a brain after all and while he sits sipping his margaritas reliving the glory days of the 3 holer, he chooses to toss a pearl to the swine which is, unfortunately, immediately dismissed due to his previous “form”.
This time I have to admit to being somewhat in tune with his sentiments. Just WHAT do you think a bunch of SO’s is going to achieve, even united as they apparently are? Hasn’t your brief time in that (once?) great airline told you anything? That you aren’t dealing with a bunch of rank amateurs here, but a bunch of hardened, sharp, ruthless and sometimes downright dirty, professionals. “Legal-ese” one person wrote. Ha! You don’t know what you’re talking about. If CX want to get into a legal s&%$ fight, they’ll employ a team that’ll make your hair stand on end. For one thing their delaying tactics will bleed you dry. Go ask the AOA how much of your money (and mine for that matter) has been wasted over the last 15 years on stupid and pointless legal arguments that had no chance of success because of Hong Kong’s complete lack of fair labour laws.
In some respects you’re right; you have to stand up and fight. But if you’re going to pick a fight with Cathay Pacific, or more importantly, J Swire and Sons, you have to be totally united. And that means from the most senior captain to the most junior SO. If you don’t, any action will have limited impact, probably fizzle out in a short time and may even have no effect at all. What might be good for a SO in HKG, might be the last thing a FO in UK wants to fight for if his command is about to start. See the problem you’ve got?
In 1990, a Flight Engineer stood up at an AOA meeting in the Sheriton and told everyone in no uncertain terms that all this talking was bo££ocks and if they wanted to change anything they had to be prepared to go on STRIKE. There was a stunned silence. Never in the history of the AOA and it’s cosy relationship with CX management had anyone uttered those words.
But tell you what, he was absolutely right. We had a WOE campaign. Withdrawal Of Enthusiasm. Well, that had them shaking in their shoes. Not! Then we had various stages of Contract Compliance. What happened? F%$£ all! Then B Scales, nothing. 1994 new contracts, nothing. ASL, nothing. C,D……X scales, nothing. 1999 new contacts (again), oh wow (!) this time we had a “sick out”!!!! Not a go slow, not a work to rule, not a STRIKE, but……..a sick out. How lame. Sure it cost the company a lot and they came back to the table and gave slightly better terms, but a victory? Ha! Don’t make me laugh. In 2000 they demoted a load of guys for various trivial misdemeanours and in 2001, WHAM, the 49’ers plus a couple of others who happened to cop a bit of collateral damage.
And so it goes on and on and on. When I was there the AOA was toothless. All it did as far as I could see was to cost me a lot of money, 2 pay rises and give me a load of grief. But the AOA IS the membership and because the membership is so split and so dispersed, you’ll NEVER get the backing for the only action that will make CX sit up and take notice. And they know it!! And any action isn’t going to be conceived by a bunch of SO’s on their own, no matter how united and pi$$ed off they are.
Sitting on the FH forum of PP and whining isn’t going to get you anywhere. You have to get the whole membership behind you and also get everyone that left in 2000, 1 and 2 back in the fold. And then what? Do you have a leader that’s both ruthless and intelligent enough to know when and how to pick a fight you’re going to win?
All I can say is that I hope you’re keeping your tactics quiet and not blabbing them around the bazaars, especially here, otherwise CX management will run rings around you. They probably will anyway because the bottom line is they’re running an airline in difficult times and not a kindergarten or a nice cosy career progression for their employees. If they want to hire DEC’s because they’re short, they will, and at the end of the day there will be nothing that any of you can do about it.
Wake Up Gentlemen, the world is changing. Airlines are going bust whole sale. There are hundreds of pilots out there right now with Boeing and Airbus ratings that will fill the hole when you leave or are fired, no matter how short a period they’re there. And you think people won’t come? Look at Australia in 1989, and even CX in 2001. Recruitment ban? Lol. CX might be screwing you around at the moment (don’t they always?) but you still have a job, so pick your time VERY, VERY carefully. You have to remember that at the moment they hold a lot of good cards. Whether or not they have a winning hand however, is a completely different matter!! That’s up to you!
If you want to have a fight, then make your preparations quietly and carefully and then hit them hard where it hurts, when they’re least expecting it. No boxer ever won a fight by going up and tapping his opponent on the shoulder and asking to talk. You have to go up and “punch their lights out” so they don’t get up and come back for more. Anything less, your (apparent) victory will be very short lived when they come back and fire a bunch of you as they did in 2001 - 2 years after the “sick out”.
Best of luck. Try not to give away your intentions. I think observers would prefer to read about it 2 days later in the papers.
This time I have to admit to being somewhat in tune with his sentiments. Just WHAT do you think a bunch of SO’s is going to achieve, even united as they apparently are? Hasn’t your brief time in that (once?) great airline told you anything? That you aren’t dealing with a bunch of rank amateurs here, but a bunch of hardened, sharp, ruthless and sometimes downright dirty, professionals. “Legal-ese” one person wrote. Ha! You don’t know what you’re talking about. If CX want to get into a legal s&%$ fight, they’ll employ a team that’ll make your hair stand on end. For one thing their delaying tactics will bleed you dry. Go ask the AOA how much of your money (and mine for that matter) has been wasted over the last 15 years on stupid and pointless legal arguments that had no chance of success because of Hong Kong’s complete lack of fair labour laws.
In some respects you’re right; you have to stand up and fight. But if you’re going to pick a fight with Cathay Pacific, or more importantly, J Swire and Sons, you have to be totally united. And that means from the most senior captain to the most junior SO. If you don’t, any action will have limited impact, probably fizzle out in a short time and may even have no effect at all. What might be good for a SO in HKG, might be the last thing a FO in UK wants to fight for if his command is about to start. See the problem you’ve got?
In 1990, a Flight Engineer stood up at an AOA meeting in the Sheriton and told everyone in no uncertain terms that all this talking was bo££ocks and if they wanted to change anything they had to be prepared to go on STRIKE. There was a stunned silence. Never in the history of the AOA and it’s cosy relationship with CX management had anyone uttered those words.
But tell you what, he was absolutely right. We had a WOE campaign. Withdrawal Of Enthusiasm. Well, that had them shaking in their shoes. Not! Then we had various stages of Contract Compliance. What happened? F%$£ all! Then B Scales, nothing. 1994 new contracts, nothing. ASL, nothing. C,D……X scales, nothing. 1999 new contacts (again), oh wow (!) this time we had a “sick out”!!!! Not a go slow, not a work to rule, not a STRIKE, but……..a sick out. How lame. Sure it cost the company a lot and they came back to the table and gave slightly better terms, but a victory? Ha! Don’t make me laugh. In 2000 they demoted a load of guys for various trivial misdemeanours and in 2001, WHAM, the 49’ers plus a couple of others who happened to cop a bit of collateral damage.
And so it goes on and on and on. When I was there the AOA was toothless. All it did as far as I could see was to cost me a lot of money, 2 pay rises and give me a load of grief. But the AOA IS the membership and because the membership is so split and so dispersed, you’ll NEVER get the backing for the only action that will make CX sit up and take notice. And they know it!! And any action isn’t going to be conceived by a bunch of SO’s on their own, no matter how united and pi$$ed off they are.
Sitting on the FH forum of PP and whining isn’t going to get you anywhere. You have to get the whole membership behind you and also get everyone that left in 2000, 1 and 2 back in the fold. And then what? Do you have a leader that’s both ruthless and intelligent enough to know when and how to pick a fight you’re going to win?
All I can say is that I hope you’re keeping your tactics quiet and not blabbing them around the bazaars, especially here, otherwise CX management will run rings around you. They probably will anyway because the bottom line is they’re running an airline in difficult times and not a kindergarten or a nice cosy career progression for their employees. If they want to hire DEC’s because they’re short, they will, and at the end of the day there will be nothing that any of you can do about it.
Wake Up Gentlemen, the world is changing. Airlines are going bust whole sale. There are hundreds of pilots out there right now with Boeing and Airbus ratings that will fill the hole when you leave or are fired, no matter how short a period they’re there. And you think people won’t come? Look at Australia in 1989, and even CX in 2001. Recruitment ban? Lol. CX might be screwing you around at the moment (don’t they always?) but you still have a job, so pick your time VERY, VERY carefully. You have to remember that at the moment they hold a lot of good cards. Whether or not they have a winning hand however, is a completely different matter!! That’s up to you!
If you want to have a fight, then make your preparations quietly and carefully and then hit them hard where it hurts, when they’re least expecting it. No boxer ever won a fight by going up and tapping his opponent on the shoulder and asking to talk. You have to go up and “punch their lights out” so they don’t get up and come back for more. Anything less, your (apparent) victory will be very short lived when they come back and fire a bunch of you as they did in 2001 - 2 years after the “sick out”.
Best of luck. Try not to give away your intentions. I think observers would prefer to read about it 2 days later in the papers.
Last edited by BusterHot; 6th Oct 2008 at 14:07.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: HK
Posts: 513
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GONE DOWN off you go then, there's a good boy. You supposedly knew what you were joining, joined and now think you and a few other SO's will change the mighty dragon. Dream on!
Just make sure that you guys are not being use for ulterior motives, and by the way your P2X rating is really worth a lot out there!!
Just make sure that you guys are not being use for ulterior motives, and by the way your P2X rating is really worth a lot out there!!