Hong Kong Airlines B737-800 tries to take off from Taxiway in HKG
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: hong kong
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sounds to me like the pilots at this airline are a useless bunch of f#cks who couldn't get a decent job at a real airline. No wonder they take off on taxi ways. Pay peanuts and you get retarded pilots.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: hk
Age: 47
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fuzzy you are being a bit too Generalistic by implying all pilots at HKA are substandard. Sure the direct entry Captains are useless but dont put the existing Captains and arse saving western Fo's into the same category as these incompetent fools.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Mong Kok
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My dear Jdriver_HK,
I think you’re missing the point here.
This is not a battle of “Aust/Kiwi vs SEA skippers” as you so naively put it. That is over-simplifying the issue and demonstrates a distinct lack of understanding of what is really going on here.
I’ll have you know that i have discussed this with many of our South American colleagues who wholeheartedly share the sentiments expressed in the these posts (re: HKA and Singaporean management). They are NOT happy and are as vehemently opposed to the current flight ops management and the drastic (and frightening) lowering of standards at HKA. I don’t know if any have posted here. Perhaps... perhaps not.... but it’s not to say they don’t join the posters here in their complete disapproval and utter opposition to the Singaporean management.
The Singaporean management, by no virtue of their ethnicity, but entirely of their complete incompetence, arrogance, deceitfulness and nepotism are running HKA in to the ground... figuratively or literally... you decide.
Amongst other things, they promised HKA/Hainan senior management they would resolve the pilot shortage... easily done by actually LOWERING the standards for pilot candidates sought... f/o’s and captains (or skippers as you so quaintly put it). Note: 'Jet time' does not equal standards.
14 qualified, rated, eager, disciplined pilots with significant aviation experience and good performance history were summarily let go for “lack of professional experience” given their lack of ‘jet time’. Instead pilots who indeed have jet time, but perhaps less than desirable airmanship, standards and ability have been hired. Granted, it would be unfair to label all these new joiners as sub-standard without sufficient evidence, but given the Singaporean managements great drive to swell the ranks, there indeed are many who have found their way in to the company despite having seriously struggled through the sim course (unlike the fourteeners), performed poorly on base checks and line checks, continually exhibit woefully poor airmanship and CRM... and even one who would have been cut after selection sim if not for his assessment scores being altered post-event.
The Indonesian captain involved in the recent event was sub-standard... as was accidently leaked in an email to the pilot body at HKA. The email regarding a previously attempted line check confirmed the fears (and rumours) most of us had regarding several of these new joiners. Subsequently, ‘Taxi-gate’ was a result of poor recruiting and vetting standards.
The Singaporean management, with possibly the exception of their leader (not certain), have NO airline management experience... NO (or at best very little) training experience... NO HR experience... poor ability themselves and very limited command experience. Interestingly, most of our South American (and ‘Aust/Kiwi’) captains have far more experience than them... and yet they are running the show... with NO demonstrable evidence of quantitative or qualitative achievement.
The fact is my naive friend... some posters perhaps get a little too colourful in their racial references... but this is perhaps due to frustration about what’s going on at HKA. Throw in a death threat, a number of cover-ups and a few intimidation tactics... and a very fiery bunch of posters you’ll have.
So is it really a battle of Aust/Kiwi vs SEA... or perhaps a group of pilots concerned, frustrated, disappointed and p!ssed off with a bunch of nincompoops???
I think you’re missing the point here.
This is not a battle of “Aust/Kiwi vs SEA skippers” as you so naively put it. That is over-simplifying the issue and demonstrates a distinct lack of understanding of what is really going on here.
I’ll have you know that i have discussed this with many of our South American colleagues who wholeheartedly share the sentiments expressed in the these posts (re: HKA and Singaporean management). They are NOT happy and are as vehemently opposed to the current flight ops management and the drastic (and frightening) lowering of standards at HKA. I don’t know if any have posted here. Perhaps... perhaps not.... but it’s not to say they don’t join the posters here in their complete disapproval and utter opposition to the Singaporean management.
The Singaporean management, by no virtue of their ethnicity, but entirely of their complete incompetence, arrogance, deceitfulness and nepotism are running HKA in to the ground... figuratively or literally... you decide.
Amongst other things, they promised HKA/Hainan senior management they would resolve the pilot shortage... easily done by actually LOWERING the standards for pilot candidates sought... f/o’s and captains (or skippers as you so quaintly put it). Note: 'Jet time' does not equal standards.
14 qualified, rated, eager, disciplined pilots with significant aviation experience and good performance history were summarily let go for “lack of professional experience” given their lack of ‘jet time’. Instead pilots who indeed have jet time, but perhaps less than desirable airmanship, standards and ability have been hired. Granted, it would be unfair to label all these new joiners as sub-standard without sufficient evidence, but given the Singaporean managements great drive to swell the ranks, there indeed are many who have found their way in to the company despite having seriously struggled through the sim course (unlike the fourteeners), performed poorly on base checks and line checks, continually exhibit woefully poor airmanship and CRM... and even one who would have been cut after selection sim if not for his assessment scores being altered post-event.
The Indonesian captain involved in the recent event was sub-standard... as was accidently leaked in an email to the pilot body at HKA. The email regarding a previously attempted line check confirmed the fears (and rumours) most of us had regarding several of these new joiners. Subsequently, ‘Taxi-gate’ was a result of poor recruiting and vetting standards.
The Singaporean management, with possibly the exception of their leader (not certain), have NO airline management experience... NO (or at best very little) training experience... NO HR experience... poor ability themselves and very limited command experience. Interestingly, most of our South American (and ‘Aust/Kiwi’) captains have far more experience than them... and yet they are running the show... with NO demonstrable evidence of quantitative or qualitative achievement.
The fact is my naive friend... some posters perhaps get a little too colourful in their racial references... but this is perhaps due to frustration about what’s going on at HKA. Throw in a death threat, a number of cover-ups and a few intimidation tactics... and a very fiery bunch of posters you’ll have.
So is it really a battle of Aust/Kiwi vs SEA... or perhaps a group of pilots concerned, frustrated, disappointed and p!ssed off with a bunch of nincompoops???
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ACMS,
Well I'm all for writing ''RUNWAY AHEAD D
HEAD'' at the stop bars,if it prevents runway incursions,or aircraft departing on a taxiway.
Maybe you should enlighten yourself on current thinking about this subject.
I saw 3 runway incursions at CLK,all through red stop bars.Thank god none of them were dangerous,but anything that improves safety should be looked at.
If that sign is the last link in the chain,that stops a list of errors becoming a disaster,then get the paint brushes out.
Well I'm all for writing ''RUNWAY AHEAD D
HEAD'' at the stop bars,if it prevents runway incursions,or aircraft departing on a taxiway.Maybe you should enlighten yourself on current thinking about this subject.
I saw 3 runway incursions at CLK,all through red stop bars.Thank god none of them were dangerous,but anything that improves safety should be looked at.
If that sign is the last link in the chain,that stops a list of errors becoming a disaster,then get the paint brushes out.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: BC
Age: 86
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Throw a dyce, why stop with signs if its so helpful? Why not a big toll gate that you have to throw your token in before being allowed on the runway???
Having stupid signs like the ones in LHR are just ridiculous. We are all professionals, you cant cater to the lowest idiot every time. Just more pedantic british bs.
Having stupid signs like the ones in LHR are just ridiculous. We are all professionals, you cant cater to the lowest idiot every time. Just more pedantic british bs.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
iluvpx,
Fine,Carry on.I saw more dodgy incidents in 3 years in HK,than 25 years in UK.If it's British BS and we don't kill innocent passengers then I'll sleep easy.
It seems the HK way is rascists finger pointing exercise.A bit like the way the CAD investigated it's ATC incidents when I was there.
I thought the whole reason for safety was to learn from other peoples mistakes,and be as safe as possible.Maybe I was wrong when it comes to the perfection that happens all the time in HK.
Suggest you look up the Manchester and one of the American runway incursions (Lost in fog).It's part of our TRUCE training here.
Fine,Carry on.I saw more dodgy incidents in 3 years in HK,than 25 years in UK.If it's British BS and we don't kill innocent passengers then I'll sleep easy.
It seems the HK way is rascists finger pointing exercise.A bit like the way the CAD investigated it's ATC incidents when I was there.
I thought the whole reason for safety was to learn from other peoples mistakes,and be as safe as possible.Maybe I was wrong when it comes to the perfection that happens all the time in HK.
Suggest you look up the Manchester and one of the American runway incursions (Lost in fog).It's part of our TRUCE training here.
Last edited by throw a dyce; 20th Sep 2008 at 23:11.
Well I for one didn't mention race anywhere in my posts.
I did however mention incompetance. And that is what this incident is
INCOMPETANCE
They can paint all they want on the tarmac, I can see it's not going to hurt but in this case I don't think it would have helped. The sign would be near the holding point of the runway and this 737 never came close to that point did it? And it was dark.
Would you suggest they paint a sign on taxyway B saying "runway ahead sign ahead"
If a so called "experienced" Captain can mis-identify lots of wonderful different colour lights AND sign boards on a good night at one of the most modern airports anywhere in the free world then he's very below par.
There is just so many different visual cues around the airport that it's just plain funny how he could stuff up.
And I believe taxyway A ( where he attempted T/O ) around the north west corner of the field ONLY HAS CENTRELINE GREEN lights and NO SIDELINE BLUE.
THIS MEANS HE TRIED TO TAKEOFF WITH ONLY CENTRELINE GREEN LIGHTS...............that's even worse...........
Ground the i immediatly for 1/ colour vision tests
and 2/ re-training on airport signs.
THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE FREINDS.
I did however mention incompetance. And that is what this incident is
INCOMPETANCE
They can paint all they want on the tarmac, I can see it's not going to hurt but in this case I don't think it would have helped. The sign would be near the holding point of the runway and this 737 never came close to that point did it? And it was dark.
Would you suggest they paint a sign on taxyway B saying "runway ahead sign ahead"
If a so called "experienced" Captain can mis-identify lots of wonderful different colour lights AND sign boards on a good night at one of the most modern airports anywhere in the free world then he's very below par.
There is just so many different visual cues around the airport that it's just plain funny how he could stuff up.
And I believe taxyway A ( where he attempted T/O ) around the north west corner of the field ONLY HAS CENTRELINE GREEN lights and NO SIDELINE BLUE.
THIS MEANS HE TRIED TO TAKEOFF WITH ONLY CENTRELINE GREEN LIGHTS...............that's even worse...........
Ground the i
immediatly for 1/ colour vision testsand 2/ re-training on airport signs.
THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE FREINDS.
I mean the guys just lucky they weren't towing an Aircraft down taxyway A to Haeco. Then it would have been a disaster.
If he can't see taxyway signs and lights what makes you so sure he would have seen another Aircraft under tow?
If he can't see taxyway signs and lights what makes you so sure he would have seen another Aircraft under tow?
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: BC
Age: 86
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If those darn American's wouldnt have invented aviation all those years ago, we wouldnt be having these problems with morons trying to fly their shiny little jets.
I got an answer for your fog issue also throw ya dice, how about the CAD hire some of those girls in LKF with all the flashy buttons and lights to stand at the runways entrance? Cant miss it..safety first right???
I hate to say this, but I also love AMCS's idea about the Runway Ahead Sign Ahead(RASA) sign. Things will be one sign safer than that at LHR. Im also thinking up something else...maybe the entire taxiway leading up to the RASA sign being painted rainbow color, with diamonds and shooting stars randomly placed along the way...and a peppermint striped unicorn for the centerline. No Hello Kittys anywhere however..that would just be stupid.
I got an answer for your fog issue also throw ya dice, how about the CAD hire some of those girls in LKF with all the flashy buttons and lights to stand at the runways entrance? Cant miss it..safety first right???
I hate to say this, but I also love AMCS's idea about the Runway Ahead Sign Ahead(RASA) sign. Things will be one sign safer than that at LHR. Im also thinking up something else...maybe the entire taxiway leading up to the RASA sign being painted rainbow color, with diamonds and shooting stars randomly placed along the way...and a peppermint striped unicorn for the centerline. No Hello Kittys anywhere however..that would just be stupid.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 1,122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps something as simple as a red stop bar,one way at the end of A,might be all that's needed.Put the red runway ahead marking as well at the Runway stopbar,and you have 2 extra clues The girls can stay in LKF.
Milan,Tenerife are other accidents you may like to read about( NoSMR).Or Gatwick when and aircraft landed on a taxiway (green centrelines)after a SRA.Gatwick was interesting from a human factors point,but in your book it's incompetance.
However if you guys say it was incompetance then so be it.You haven't mentioned the Tower not spotting it either out the window or on the SMR,until it rolled.
The girls can stay in LKF.Milan,Tenerife are other accidents you may like to read about( NoSMR).Or Gatwick when and aircraft landed on a taxiway (green centrelines)after a SRA.Gatwick was interesting from a human factors point,but in your book it's incompetance.
However if you guys say it was incompetance then so be it.You haven't mentioned the Tower not spotting it either out the window or on the SMR,until it rolled.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: asia
Posts: 947
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"There is nothing on board a plane to warn you if you take off from a taxiway or if you stray onto an active runway, and this is a problem that needs addressing."
There is nothing that warns the interviewers that they are about to hire a complete peanut, THAT is a problem that needs addressing.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: No longer in Hong kong
Age: 75
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let's face it, the tower controller shouldn't clear an aircraft for take-off until he/she is positively certain that the aircraft cannot roll with a take-off clearance from other than (in this case) rwy 07L. Sure, saying "Line up and wait runway 07L" will not stop an aircraft from lining up on twy A, but a quick check either out the window, or on the ground radar will confirm where the aircraft is, and at worse a "you d**k head, you aren't on the runway, turn left on to A2 and CONFIRMING, line up rwy07L" should save one of the last swiss cheese holes from forming up.
ACMS, highly unlikely to have a towing/taxiing aircraft on twy A, but highly likely to have vehicles...including sweepers which are always out in the dark hours, and I think they would do as much damage to a speeding jet as would anything else.
ACMS, highly unlikely to have a towing/taxiing aircraft on twy A, but highly likely to have vehicles...including sweepers which are always out in the dark hours, and I think they would do as much damage to a speeding jet as would anything else.
When ATC vectors you around traffic in IMC or clears you below LSALT "on radar terrain" you are in many ways trusting the professional competency of that controller, when a ground crew member closes your cargo door you are trusting a degree of competency so why should ATC have to look out the window to check wether or not the pilot has achieved the absolute minimum level of competency in lining up on the runway instead of the taxiway?
You can have as many clues as you like, but there will always be a way of circumventing them. Someone mentioned the SQ6 incident at TPE. Those guys knew LWMO were in force and hard tuned the ILS to get the PVD working. But when they lined up on the taxiway and one of the crew pointed out that the PVD was spinning, indicating that they were way off the runway centreline, the Captain chose to ignore it.
In the HKA incident, it occurred in an area of the airport which is not normally used by departing aircraft and looks different to the other thresholds. The fact that this type of incident has occured more than once from this point indicates that something needs to be done here. Such as a big "TAXIWAY" note painted on taxiway 'A'. Pilots don't like being treated like idiots, but it seems that in some cases it's justified!
In the HKA incident, it occurred in an area of the airport which is not normally used by departing aircraft and looks different to the other thresholds. The fact that this type of incident has occured more than once from this point indicates that something needs to be done here. Such as a big "TAXIWAY" note painted on taxiway 'A'. Pilots don't like being treated like idiots, but it seems that in some cases it's justified!
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Don't ask
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let's face it, the tower controller shouldn't clear an aircraft for take-off until he/she is positively certain that the aircraft cannot roll with a take-off clearance from other than (in this case) rwy 07L.
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Mong Kok
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are many suggestions as how to reduce threats and opinions will vary. Lessons learnt will continue to develop the aviation industry, as we strive to reduce accidents/incidents/threats... but the inherent risks will never be fully eliminated. Perhaps the option of nil risk is to not start your engines.
I think it’s understood in our industry that inherent risks will always exist, but by careful determination and application of continually developing and improving procedures, these risks can be minimised to an acceptable level (risk management) whilst maintaining a functioning aviation industry.
I personally did share ACMS’s opinion on ‘runway ahead’ signs, but that’s not to say it’s an invalid suggestion. Stop bars, signs, lights, ATC and airline procedures, CAD requirements... etc... may all be discussed ad nauseum, whilst also considering practicality, cost/benefit analysis etc... in the end the idea is to improve and grow towards a safer industry.
However, the issue here is not just about an ‘incompetent captain’... nor stop bars at alpha or ‘runway ahead’ signs. Despite all the procedures, the most competent of pilots will on occasion make mistakes... and there always will be ‘someone’ to comment on how basic and simple that mistake was and label said pilot as ‘incompetent’. Other factors may indeed have contributed. It ‘may’ not be sufficiently accurate to pin it down to one sole person for the event... though IMHO this individual bears most of the blame. I am not by any means arguing for the competency of this particular captain... but am only suggesting that everyone can make a mistake... especially at 4am... but this is where we MUST have operational, regulatory and personal procedures to guard against threats.
For me personally, the biggest threat here (biggest swiss cheese hole if you prefer) is the current management that hire and retain (by any deceptive and unethical means necessary) pilots with a ‘demonstrably poor standard’and thus increase the 'risk' further. This particular captain is one... as a previous internal email illustrates. Other recruiting practices by management that have become known to us also add to this problem. What about the airmanship and operational practices of those who took off in the typhoon... one nearly scraping a donk? How many more potential (higher than acceptable) risks exist within the ranks of HKA?
[Interestingly, re: ‘Typhoon-gate’, the head of flight training has commented that max crosswind limitations are not really ‘limitations’, rather, max ‘demonstrated’ crosswinds... and therefore it was acceptable to take-off in those conditions. What??? What about the SOP you fool? Would CAD consider them ‘limitations’ or merely ‘suggestions’? Once again this individual has illustrated his lack of knowledge, understanding or managerial experience.]
The swiss cheese holes are indeed lining up and it doesn’t help that the management are actively drilling more holes.
What’s next i wonder? Something seriously needs to be done... and it should start with the current flight ops management being removed.
I think it’s understood in our industry that inherent risks will always exist, but by careful determination and application of continually developing and improving procedures, these risks can be minimised to an acceptable level (risk management) whilst maintaining a functioning aviation industry.
I personally did share ACMS’s opinion on ‘runway ahead’ signs, but that’s not to say it’s an invalid suggestion. Stop bars, signs, lights, ATC and airline procedures, CAD requirements... etc... may all be discussed ad nauseum, whilst also considering practicality, cost/benefit analysis etc... in the end the idea is to improve and grow towards a safer industry.
However, the issue here is not just about an ‘incompetent captain’... nor stop bars at alpha or ‘runway ahead’ signs. Despite all the procedures, the most competent of pilots will on occasion make mistakes... and there always will be ‘someone’ to comment on how basic and simple that mistake was and label said pilot as ‘incompetent’. Other factors may indeed have contributed. It ‘may’ not be sufficiently accurate to pin it down to one sole person for the event... though IMHO this individual bears most of the blame. I am not by any means arguing for the competency of this particular captain... but am only suggesting that everyone can make a mistake... especially at 4am... but this is where we MUST have operational, regulatory and personal procedures to guard against threats.
For me personally, the biggest threat here (biggest swiss cheese hole if you prefer) is the current management that hire and retain (by any deceptive and unethical means necessary) pilots with a ‘demonstrably poor standard’and thus increase the 'risk' further. This particular captain is one... as a previous internal email illustrates. Other recruiting practices by management that have become known to us also add to this problem. What about the airmanship and operational practices of those who took off in the typhoon... one nearly scraping a donk? How many more potential (higher than acceptable) risks exist within the ranks of HKA?
[Interestingly, re: ‘Typhoon-gate’, the head of flight training has commented that max crosswind limitations are not really ‘limitations’, rather, max ‘demonstrated’ crosswinds... and therefore it was acceptable to take-off in those conditions. What??? What about the SOP you fool? Would CAD consider them ‘limitations’ or merely ‘suggestions’? Once again this individual has illustrated his lack of knowledge, understanding or managerial experience.]
The swiss cheese holes are indeed lining up and it doesn’t help that the management are actively drilling more holes.
What’s next i wonder? Something seriously needs to be done... and it should start with the current flight ops management being removed.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: HK
Posts: 62
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am aware of the media being 'advised' about the recent incident by my fellow aviators. I applaud all of them for finally doing something. I myself have done the same. I now realise that the point many of you have raised about corrupt hiring practices. Isnt it time that the media and relevant authorities are also made aware of HKA's hiring policies? One alone maybe able to make change...but if we all unite we can make a bigger change!
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Sandpit
Posts: 80
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jdriver_HK sad to see another round of 'big fight' Aust/Kiwi vs SEA skippers...sigh!!
It's not only here they do it everywhere just ask around. Aviation was born in Aus you know
It's not only here they do it everywhere just ask around. Aviation was born in Aus you know
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: uranus
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
itwilldoatrip
Your a moron. Read the bloody posts properly you idiot.
I have also written to SCMP, Korean newspaper indicating this is directly a result of CAD's(bedwetter) and singasnake incompetence.
THIS HAS NEVER BEEN A RACIAL ISSUE. ITS A SAFETY ISSUE AND THESE CLOWNS ARE PUTTING ALL OF US TO SHAME BY LOWERING THE STANDARDS WE HAVE ALL WORKED HARD TO MAINTAIN.
This should not be tolerated and I am glad to see all of us are getting together and putting these useless idiots away for good.
Your a moron. Read the bloody posts properly you idiot.
I have also written to SCMP, Korean newspaper indicating this is directly a result of CAD's(bedwetter) and singasnake incompetence.
THIS HAS NEVER BEEN A RACIAL ISSUE. ITS A SAFETY ISSUE AND THESE CLOWNS ARE PUTTING ALL OF US TO SHAME BY LOWERING THE STANDARDS WE HAVE ALL WORKED HARD TO MAINTAIN.
This should not be tolerated and I am glad to see all of us are getting together and putting these useless idiots away for good.