CX Direct Entry Capt
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
iLuvPX, would love to see how much better you would get on with the company on individual contracts and no representation, i am sure you would be up there banging on Nicks desk...yeah right!!!
I do share your frustrations with the AoA but trashing them is not the way forward, we have an opportunity to replace some of the older members of the GC now and hopefully...hopefully start putting the company on notice.
I do share your frustrations with the AoA but trashing them is not the way forward, we have an opportunity to replace some of the older members of the GC now and hopefully...hopefully start putting the company on notice.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Albatross
Still bleating on...
If you believe there is a DEC on the 744 pax, PM me the name or put the flight number and date on here.
There is however, no restriction on a "DEC" Freighter Commmander doing his training on the pax fleet......
Put up or shut up
If you believe there is a DEC on the 744 pax, PM me the name or put the flight number and date on here.
There is however, no restriction on a "DEC" Freighter Commmander doing his training on the pax fleet......
Put up or shut up
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
stillalbatross....another brilliant question (regarding the 777 DEC's).
What do YOU think genius? Airlines the world over making redundant hundreds, if not thousands of pilots. What chance that a 'few' of them would apply to CX out of desperation.....?
What do YOU think genius? Airlines the world over making redundant hundreds, if not thousands of pilots. What chance that a 'few' of them would apply to CX out of desperation.....?
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
stillalbatross/IluvPX et al,
you speak as if 'the' AOA is some omnipotent being that has degraded and devalued your contract! The AOA is, wait for it, us! All of us...there is a representative body of all of us called the AOA General Committee...and it has the power to do, wait for it, nothing! Every bad decision, every contentious issue that has arisen for the last decade or so has been voted on and accepted by the majority. So when people say "the AOA has given away 5-4-3" or "the AOA is happy with DECs" or "the AOA has helped introduce C scales", they are effectively saying "we accept these things and will do nothing about them but will pretend the boogey man did them so we can look at ourselves in the mirror".
IluvPX, obviously you are not about to join the AOA given the tenor of your posts. So please enlighten me, and all the other idiots in the AOA, what the alternative is? I really couldn't care what the grouping is called...whether we joined the DPA or the CPU, just tell me the answer to all our problems. Or do you believe that 2300+ individuals will be more effective than one collective organisation? If the 'deals' negotiated, on individual basis, by the extendees is anything to go by, I would suggest that individual negotiation puts you at a significant disadvantage.
The 'AOA' doesn't have the answer - we do, we all do. It is only as strong and effective as we allow it to be. We have spent the last 6 years too scared to scratch ourselves for fear of what the zoologist or Manchestarian Candidate will do. When is enough enough?
My best advice to you....imagine what your life would have been like if you had been knocked back by CX - is it some miserable existence in a polluted overcrowded city with a salary that falls far behind inflation and with a management culture more akin to a Japanese POW camp or is it possible that you could have been happy?
CX, its just a job!
you speak as if 'the' AOA is some omnipotent being that has degraded and devalued your contract! The AOA is, wait for it, us! All of us...there is a representative body of all of us called the AOA General Committee...and it has the power to do, wait for it, nothing! Every bad decision, every contentious issue that has arisen for the last decade or so has been voted on and accepted by the majority. So when people say "the AOA has given away 5-4-3" or "the AOA is happy with DECs" or "the AOA has helped introduce C scales", they are effectively saying "we accept these things and will do nothing about them but will pretend the boogey man did them so we can look at ourselves in the mirror".
IluvPX, obviously you are not about to join the AOA given the tenor of your posts. So please enlighten me, and all the other idiots in the AOA, what the alternative is? I really couldn't care what the grouping is called...whether we joined the DPA or the CPU, just tell me the answer to all our problems. Or do you believe that 2300+ individuals will be more effective than one collective organisation? If the 'deals' negotiated, on individual basis, by the extendees is anything to go by, I would suggest that individual negotiation puts you at a significant disadvantage.
The 'AOA' doesn't have the answer - we do, we all do. It is only as strong and effective as we allow it to be. We have spent the last 6 years too scared to scratch ourselves for fear of what the zoologist or Manchestarian Candidate will do. When is enough enough?
My best advice to you....imagine what your life would have been like if you had been knocked back by CX - is it some miserable existence in a polluted overcrowded city with a salary that falls far behind inflation and with a management culture more akin to a Japanese POW camp or is it possible that you could have been happy?
CX, its just a job!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: VMC on top
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stillalbatross,
I think its taken half a dozen individuals and several pages to try and explain some very simple facts and concepts. I suspect you are either very stupid or just trying to wind people up. I trust its the latter or we're all sharing the skies with a complete muppet who shouldn't be let loose in the family car, let alone a jet plane.
Now get a grip......
I think its taken half a dozen individuals and several pages to try and explain some very simple facts and concepts. I suspect you are either very stupid or just trying to wind people up. I trust its the latter or we're all sharing the skies with a complete muppet who shouldn't be let loose in the family car, let alone a jet plane.
Now get a grip......
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: BC
Age: 86
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NC, come on now. I hate to introduce facts into your fantasy, but i think you need a huge dose of reality.
Just when the pilot group was getting some balls and momentum behind them to not accept junk from the company, they vote NO to the RPs(i think that what is was), then the AOA turns right around and says their votes dont count, because they dont know whats best for them and effectively changes the vote to a YES, completely stifling any momentum or cohesiveness. That act in itself was criminal..yet nothing was done about it.
Using simple common sense, through the AOA we have received nothing and even experienced a decline in just about every thing. As individuals, some people have organize great deals for themselves...BKK basings, paid commutes, extending, and so much more. And all those extendees have been way more effective than the AOA. They signed a contract till 55, and have managed to extend past that age. With the AOA I have ZERO chance of improving my conditions, by myself at least I have a CHANCE.
So the question I have for you NC is simply this. What has the AOA done for its members? A pay rise in the last decade, more spots on bases, better conditions of service, better work rules, individually wrapped sandwiches??? Give me anything positive they have accomplished.
Every bad decision, every contentious issue that has arisen for the last decade or so has been voted on and accepted by the majority.
Or do you believe that 2300+ individuals will be more effective than one collective organisation? If the 'deals' negotiated, on individual basis, by the extendees is anything to go by, I would suggest that individual negotiation puts you at a significant disadvantage.
So the question I have for you NC is simply this. What has the AOA done for its members? A pay rise in the last decade, more spots on bases, better conditions of service, better work rules, individually wrapped sandwiches??? Give me anything positive they have accomplished.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: "HARD" TO TELL.....
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
iLuvPX..
I'm with you 100% on this one..
NC is constantly trying to justify ALL the money he has spent so far on an utterly useless,spiness and pathetic organisation called the AOA..
..who has done absolutely NOTHING for it's members..even though there have been 1000 opportunities to do so..
One thing I have suggested in the past is INDUSTRIAL action.Has the AOA ever proposed this to its members to test their reaction and the viability of such a step? NO...they haven't...
Now why would that be?Well, as with all their other failed attempts in the past,any vote "not in favour of CX" simply means a re-vote UNTIL it favours CX management..whom I'm convinced is in exactly the same bed as the current AOA GC gang..
So much for democracy and an independant, representative pilots body!!!
I'm with you 100% on this one..
NC is constantly trying to justify ALL the money he has spent so far on an utterly useless,spiness and pathetic organisation called the AOA..
..who has done absolutely NOTHING for it's members..even though there have been 1000 opportunities to do so..
One thing I have suggested in the past is INDUSTRIAL action.Has the AOA ever proposed this to its members to test their reaction and the viability of such a step? NO...they haven't...
Now why would that be?Well, as with all their other failed attempts in the past,any vote "not in favour of CX" simply means a re-vote UNTIL it favours CX management..whom I'm convinced is in exactly the same bed as the current AOA GC gang..
So much for democracy and an independant, representative pilots body!!!
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IluvPX,
there were two decisions that were revoted on....RPs and 49er compensation. Although they failed on first vote with much subsequent 'spin' were revoted on and succeeded on second vote. In the case of the RP vote, on both votes the majority wanted to accept it but there were insufficient votes to satisfy AOA rules to pass it on the first pass.
So, I will say it again, every change or new policy that is now in place was voted on and accepted by the majority. The corollary to that means that there is a very disgruntled minority that didn't like the majority vote. Somehow it is "THE AOA"'s fault and not the majority of members that we have RP07!
My personal view is that there should never be a revote without significant change and consultation with the membership over what changes were needed to have the vote pass. In the past the majority of the GC thought it knew better than the majority and re - presented the votes with much scare mongering! If you were AOA members and could read the manifestos of the GC nominees you would see that most nominees realise they don't know better than the majority and would not endorse a revote! I have not voted for GC nominees that think they know better than the membership - I like to leave that level of arrogant representation to the company, not the AOA!
I am glad to hear that some individuals have gotten good deals on an individual basis. One example of what the AOA is trying to help prevent, for many non members I might add, is housing allowance for LEPs on bypass pay. Our CoS quite clearly states that FOs on command bypass pay are entitled to CN pay, benefits and allowances. CX management have decided that they don't want to pay CN's housing to LEPs on bypass pay, which is an obvious breach of their CoS.
So if you want to continue to believe that the AOA is out to reduce CoS etc then that is your right! I would prefer to think of the AOA as protecting our CoS from constant and unjustified attack by management. Its an esoteric argument though as neither of us can prove what things would be like without the AOA's efforts over the years.
slapfaan,
like you I hope the new President and GC will be more truly representative! There are many AOA members who are sick of non members receiving any gains but at no personal cost to themselves...if we had contract compliance, non members will be 1% richer and can work any individual deals they want with CX. There is a huge number wanting any future deals to only apply to members - still you are certain you can do better by yourself so next payrise that is negotiated I suggest you do the honourable thing and reject it or pass on any 'enforced' gains to the Sunnyside club....to accept it would be hypocritical as a non member.
I am not sure how many extendees we have as C+Ters and freighter pilots...but out of the 20-30 I have met ALL of them are on vastly inferior terms than they were before 55 - so I guess there are quite a few people who do seem to get worse deals when negotiating on an individual basis. But please do give me some examples of those that have got fantastic deals out of CX by negotiating individually!
there were two decisions that were revoted on....RPs and 49er compensation. Although they failed on first vote with much subsequent 'spin' were revoted on and succeeded on second vote. In the case of the RP vote, on both votes the majority wanted to accept it but there were insufficient votes to satisfy AOA rules to pass it on the first pass.
So, I will say it again, every change or new policy that is now in place was voted on and accepted by the majority. The corollary to that means that there is a very disgruntled minority that didn't like the majority vote. Somehow it is "THE AOA"'s fault and not the majority of members that we have RP07!
My personal view is that there should never be a revote without significant change and consultation with the membership over what changes were needed to have the vote pass. In the past the majority of the GC thought it knew better than the majority and re - presented the votes with much scare mongering! If you were AOA members and could read the manifestos of the GC nominees you would see that most nominees realise they don't know better than the majority and would not endorse a revote! I have not voted for GC nominees that think they know better than the membership - I like to leave that level of arrogant representation to the company, not the AOA!
I am glad to hear that some individuals have gotten good deals on an individual basis. One example of what the AOA is trying to help prevent, for many non members I might add, is housing allowance for LEPs on bypass pay. Our CoS quite clearly states that FOs on command bypass pay are entitled to CN pay, benefits and allowances. CX management have decided that they don't want to pay CN's housing to LEPs on bypass pay, which is an obvious breach of their CoS.
So if you want to continue to believe that the AOA is out to reduce CoS etc then that is your right! I would prefer to think of the AOA as protecting our CoS from constant and unjustified attack by management. Its an esoteric argument though as neither of us can prove what things would be like without the AOA's efforts over the years.
slapfaan,
like you I hope the new President and GC will be more truly representative! There are many AOA members who are sick of non members receiving any gains but at no personal cost to themselves...if we had contract compliance, non members will be 1% richer and can work any individual deals they want with CX. There is a huge number wanting any future deals to only apply to members - still you are certain you can do better by yourself so next payrise that is negotiated I suggest you do the honourable thing and reject it or pass on any 'enforced' gains to the Sunnyside club....to accept it would be hypocritical as a non member.
I am not sure how many extendees we have as C+Ters and freighter pilots...but out of the 20-30 I have met ALL of them are on vastly inferior terms than they were before 55 - so I guess there are quite a few people who do seem to get worse deals when negotiating on an individual basis. But please do give me some examples of those that have got fantastic deals out of CX by negotiating individually!
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: BC
Age: 86
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Damn you NC, your non-emotive and constructive arguments have disarmed me once again!! I do think you are by far the best thing the AOA has going for it, and if you were to be voted in as President, I would most certainly defect and join up.
That being said, I shall launch one correction then holster my 6-shooter.
Huge misstatement NC. Ever since the 49's debacle, the AOA has never held even close to a majority of the pilot body. Even if every one of the members voted the same. So the majority's voice has never been heard; only those of the retro kicking, company voting GC members and the biggest muppet of them all, ST.
Its a sad statement that more people would rather not be a part of the AOA, with no voice, than be a part of the problem with a voice.
The AOA is broken.
That being said, I shall launch one correction then holster my 6-shooter.
Originally Posted by Numero Crunchero
So, I will say it again, every change or new policy that is now in place was voted on and accepted by the majority.
Its a sad statement that more people would rather not be a part of the AOA, with no voice, than be a part of the problem with a voice.
The AOA is broken.
Ilovepax,
The majority of the AOA members voted for those items. Are you representing ALL the non-members when you say you were against it, I don't think so.
AOA membership is approx 60% of pilots which is the majority.
The majority of the AOA members voted for those items. Are you representing ALL the non-members when you say you were against it, I don't think so.
AOA membership is approx 60% of pilots which is the majority.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IluvPx,
thanks....I will be running for president the week after I am made the next DFO - hang on a minute, I am not qualified to be DFO as I haven't done an Arts, Archeology or Zoology degree - damn, I knew those finance and MBA courses would be a waste of time!!!
You are correct - it is the majority of those that voted that were in the AOA. Even then we didn't have 100% of eligible members vote. What concerns me is why pilots don't join and don't vote. If you feel you are happy to go with the majority then you don't vote. If you feel there is nothing you can do that will improve things then you don't vote (or join the AOA) through apathy. We need to reinvigorate the pilot body and have them believe that we can make a difference!
They say the difference between a pessimist and optimist is experience...I guess I need more experience as I still believe that with concerted action we can improve things here.
I don't like the direction the AOA has been heading in, I don't like having my democratic vote revoted on, I don't like my representative body act as the selling agent for every sh1tty deal management comes up. I don't like GC members telling me they know whats best for the majority especially when their view is in the minority.
I don't like the puerile communications management come up with...I know we have been called 'million dollar morons' but our train set managers must be 'fifty cent fools' to think we would believe such stupendous fallacies such as "we are not short of crew" and, my favourite, "RA65 will reduce time to command".
So I find myself in that place of "put up, shut up or fix it"! I have no silver bullet, but all of us combined do have the silver bullet. Yes things look grim in the short term but remember D day was over a year in the planning...what we do now sets the stage for 1-2 years hence. If we believe we can achieve nothing then nothing is what we will achieve.
OK, you have holstered your gun and I will take my soap box home;-)
thanks....I will be running for president the week after I am made the next DFO - hang on a minute, I am not qualified to be DFO as I haven't done an Arts, Archeology or Zoology degree - damn, I knew those finance and MBA courses would be a waste of time!!!
You are correct - it is the majority of those that voted that were in the AOA. Even then we didn't have 100% of eligible members vote. What concerns me is why pilots don't join and don't vote. If you feel you are happy to go with the majority then you don't vote. If you feel there is nothing you can do that will improve things then you don't vote (or join the AOA) through apathy. We need to reinvigorate the pilot body and have them believe that we can make a difference!
They say the difference between a pessimist and optimist is experience...I guess I need more experience as I still believe that with concerted action we can improve things here.
I don't like the direction the AOA has been heading in, I don't like having my democratic vote revoted on, I don't like my representative body act as the selling agent for every sh1tty deal management comes up. I don't like GC members telling me they know whats best for the majority especially when their view is in the minority.
I don't like the puerile communications management come up with...I know we have been called 'million dollar morons' but our train set managers must be 'fifty cent fools' to think we would believe such stupendous fallacies such as "we are not short of crew" and, my favourite, "RA65 will reduce time to command".
So I find myself in that place of "put up, shut up or fix it"! I have no silver bullet, but all of us combined do have the silver bullet. Yes things look grim in the short term but remember D day was over a year in the planning...what we do now sets the stage for 1-2 years hence. If we believe we can achieve nothing then nothing is what we will achieve.
OK, you have holstered your gun and I will take my soap box home;-)
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: BC
Age: 86
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
NC, i appreciate your efforts and think your vision is one that the masses can rally behind. As far as supporting the AOA..it has been completely tarnished by current owners. You would need a new name, a new association, a re-branding, fresh start, anything besides, in which to build upon. There are already too many band-aids, false promises, and misguided people under the AOA umbrella.
Busy B, you display the attitude and lack of intelligence that has become synonymous with all that is wrong with the AOA. I bet you put as much effort into responding to these posts as you do in GC meetings...you already got yours right..who cares then..right?? Open your book and read that under the AOA voting rules, you dont need a majority to pass a vote..something put in there to protect the thinning ranks of A-scale takers.
I look forward to the day when old dinosaurs like Busy B have been removed and replaced by more intelligent, well spoken, people, interested in improving conditions for all, not just the few.
PX..out!
Busy B, you display the attitude and lack of intelligence that has become synonymous with all that is wrong with the AOA. I bet you put as much effort into responding to these posts as you do in GC meetings...you already got yours right..who cares then..right?? Open your book and read that under the AOA voting rules, you dont need a majority to pass a vote..something put in there to protect the thinning ranks of A-scale takers.
I look forward to the day when old dinosaurs like Busy B have been removed and replaced by more intelligent, well spoken, people, interested in improving conditions for all, not just the few.
PX..out!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There were 3 re-votes. Housing, RP's and the 49'r re-employment deal. To acheive a pass the second time around, on the first two, we were threatened that no deal will be made on the third unless the first two pass. Then look at the ****ty deal the 49'rs got. All done with scare tactics and BS. I hope things can change but those are the facts.
NC you said: "So, I will say it again, every change or new policy that is now in place was voted on and accepted by the majority. "
How wrong you are, I never saw a vote on COS 08, the new extension policy, blatant breaches of the COS, and many more policy changes that have been changed with no votes, something as simple as the excess baggage allowance was surely not voted on.
NC you said: "So, I will say it again, every change or new policy that is now in place was voted on and accepted by the majority. "
How wrong you are, I never saw a vote on COS 08, the new extension policy, blatant breaches of the COS, and many more policy changes that have been changed with no votes, something as simple as the excess baggage allowance was surely not voted on.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Where You Aren't
Posts: 506
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let's Not Digress
This thread is called CX Direct Entry Capt
As KJP said, these positions were offered to all current CX pilots. All current CX pilots chose not to accept these degraded Conditions of Service, so CX is hiring Captains off the street (well, not really
).
Only we, through whatever legal means we have at our disposal (not much), can change the situation. The AOA (meaning WE) continues to stand by and do nothing. Let's either do something dramatic, or shut up and take it up the
like good little boys and girls. Remember, this is China, and it is still Swire country. We're just modern versions of British Imperial subjects. Are we gonna have a revolution? Absolutely not. But, 2300+ little needles surely can do as much good as a big bonk on the head! What was the latest, 100kg of fuel saved (wasted) per flight can trim (add) millions from (to) the annual fuel bill? Think...
As KJP said, these positions were offered to all current CX pilots. All current CX pilots chose not to accept these degraded Conditions of Service, so CX is hiring Captains off the street (well, not really
).Only we, through whatever legal means we have at our disposal (not much), can change the situation. The AOA (meaning WE) continues to stand by and do nothing. Let's either do something dramatic, or shut up and take it up the
like good little boys and girls. Remember, this is China, and it is still Swire country. We're just modern versions of British Imperial subjects. Are we gonna have a revolution? Absolutely not. But, 2300+ little needles surely can do as much good as a big bonk on the head! What was the latest, 100kg of fuel saved (wasted) per flight can trim (add) millions from (to) the annual fuel bill? Think...
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: England
Posts: 601
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I understand there may be a lot less OA pilots coming than was originally thought....... the latest part of the sandpit to modernise outbid the miserable 'O' scales offered...... 
