CX Direct Entry Capt
Well actually I do...............He lives in the Gateway, and it's not cheap.
He was a Capt in AHK, he did come accross to CX around 2000 and now he's undergoing training on the 400.fleet, most likely it seems the Freighter.
All I was doing was asking a question, you guys really do get worked up.
Everything I said is 100% true and I don't have a problem with the guy if what he has been given is following seniority, infact he probably deserves it.
There are a lot of highly experienced Pilot's flying freighters for us, did I ever say any different?
I was trying to workout how he was able to live in the Gateway on a 400 freighter command HKG that's all.
So settle down you lot.
It wont effect my command, I ALREADY have one thanks, but it might have screwed a lot below me that don't.
You don't think CX would ever bend the rules do you? Nah wouldn't happen I think
He was a Capt in AHK, he did come accross to CX around 2000 and now he's undergoing training on the 400.fleet, most likely it seems the Freighter.
All I was doing was asking a question, you guys really do get worked up.
Everything I said is 100% true and I don't have a problem with the guy if what he has been given is following seniority, infact he probably deserves it.
There are a lot of highly experienced Pilot's flying freighters for us, did I ever say any different?
I was trying to workout how he was able to live in the Gateway on a 400 freighter command HKG that's all.
So settle down you lot.
It wont effect my command, I ALREADY have one thanks, but it might have screwed a lot below me that don't.
You don't think CX would ever bend the rules do you? Nah wouldn't happen I think
Last edited by ACMS; 10th Jun 2008 at 15:16.
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ACMS:
"All I know is that this guy was with AHK from '95. He was a Capt on the 742 classic and in 2000 he must have joined the CX seniority list. Now he's got a 744 Pax left seat based in HK on a fairly good housing allowance.
"
See previous remarks re tosserdom....
"All I know is that this guy was with AHK from '95. He was a Capt on the 742 classic and in 2000 he must have joined the CX seniority list. Now he's got a 744 Pax left seat based in HK on a fairly good housing allowance.
"
See previous remarks re tosserdom....
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Albatross
"If they're so wonderful how come so many of them shot through to HKG for a pax F/O job when their freighter command came up?"
Your choice of answers
a. Money.... chance to experience expat living... the same reasons you did...
b. The AOA told them to, thereby, depriving some yet to join SO, who once built an Airfix kit, his rightful place on the CX seniority list.
ACMS... if you took an nanosecond to ask or listen; you would know that Command seniority is now 1 Jan 2000 and therefore the first of the ex-ASL pilots are senior enough to hold pax commands... surely you have no problem with that or are you with Albatross.... who thinks seniority should run from date of application or date of building first Airfix kit
Your choice of answers
a. Money.... chance to experience expat living... the same reasons you did...
b. The AOA told them to, thereby, depriving some yet to join SO, who once built an Airfix kit, his rightful place on the CX seniority list.
ACMS... if you took an nanosecond to ask or listen; you would know that Command seniority is now 1 Jan 2000 and therefore the first of the ex-ASL pilots are senior enough to hold pax commands... surely you have no problem with that or are you with Albatross.... who thinks seniority should run from date of application or date of building first Airfix kit
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Alba Dross,
I think I sense a little jealously in your tone. Maybe you're intimidated by these chaps previous experience.
You appear to be a very bitter man. If you had flown the freighter, then you would have experienced a very demanding roster. 12 day patterns and only 4 to 5 days off in between, makes a serious dent in your lifestyle. When their 3 years were up on the freighter, many elected to become FO's on the passenger fleet in Hong Kong. A change is as good as a rest. In exactly the same way that an SO chooses to accept the opportunity to move to the right seat as a JFO. Why are you so bitter about this particular group of pilots?
If it bothers you so much, look up this individuals telephone number in crew direct and give him a call. That way, you could get your facts straight and not open your self up to such criticism. Don't assume, check!
I think I sense a little jealously in your tone. Maybe you're intimidated by these chaps previous experience.
You appear to be a very bitter man. If you had flown the freighter, then you would have experienced a very demanding roster. 12 day patterns and only 4 to 5 days off in between, makes a serious dent in your lifestyle. When their 3 years were up on the freighter, many elected to become FO's on the passenger fleet in Hong Kong. A change is as good as a rest. In exactly the same way that an SO chooses to accept the opportunity to move to the right seat as a JFO. Why are you so bitter about this particular group of pilots?
If it bothers you so much, look up this individuals telephone number in crew direct and give him a call. That way, you could get your facts straight and not open your self up to such criticism. Don't assume, check!
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I think if the company is holding off pax slots due economic conditions and leaving guys waiting for years then the AOA shouldn't have been pushing to get freighter guys into the pax fleet at the same time. One group of crew screwed the other.
Albadross.....you seem to have a complete misunderstanding of the whole DEFO issue. Before 1st jan 2000, there was just ASL flying the freighter. ON that day, ASL pilots were allowed to join the bottom of the seniority list. just like you and i did when we joined. the ones that didnt join generally did so for reasons like a quicker freighter command or the chance to work until they were 60 (as opposed to 55 in our CoS).
every other freighter pilot who has joined cathay since then has joined the cathay seniority list on his date of joining. they do not move to hkg to take an SO's chance of an ugrade, they move to hkg to take a pax position that was by right theirs. SO's do three years making beds, then upgrade. DEFO's on the freighter do three years on the freighter then upgrade to the pax fleet. it is the same thing based on seniority and has been for 8 1/2 years.
ASL? most joined cathay in 2000, of those who stayed, most of them have either retired or joined oasis or similar, leaving how many? 10? and they were integrated to the pax fleet this year not after begging the AOA to become a passenger pilot...no...because the company could not crew the freighter with the FACA in place. remove ASL, no FACA, we all fly the freighter.
just take this away from this.....most freighter pilots choose to fly the freighter because they dont want to be an SO or would rather have a basing. they move to the pax fleet by rights, not taking anyone elses place, just in pure seniority having served a minimum of "3 years on the freighter fleet". so to the ASL bashers out there, get a grip of the facts. To the SO's who think that DEFO's on the freighter should not join the pax fleet....well the move is theres by rights!
Albadross.....you seem to have a complete misunderstanding of the whole DEFO issue. Before 1st jan 2000, there was just ASL flying the freighter. ON that day, ASL pilots were allowed to join the bottom of the seniority list. just like you and i did when we joined. the ones that didnt join generally did so for reasons like a quicker freighter command or the chance to work until they were 60 (as opposed to 55 in our CoS).
every other freighter pilot who has joined cathay since then has joined the cathay seniority list on his date of joining. they do not move to hkg to take an SO's chance of an ugrade, they move to hkg to take a pax position that was by right theirs. SO's do three years making beds, then upgrade. DEFO's on the freighter do three years on the freighter then upgrade to the pax fleet. it is the same thing based on seniority and has been for 8 1/2 years.
ASL? most joined cathay in 2000, of those who stayed, most of them have either retired or joined oasis or similar, leaving how many? 10? and they were integrated to the pax fleet this year not after begging the AOA to become a passenger pilot...no...because the company could not crew the freighter with the FACA in place. remove ASL, no FACA, we all fly the freighter.
just take this away from this.....most freighter pilots choose to fly the freighter because they dont want to be an SO or would rather have a basing. they move to the pax fleet by rights, not taking anyone elses place, just in pure seniority having served a minimum of "3 years on the freighter fleet". so to the ASL bashers out there, get a grip of the facts. To the SO's who think that DEFO's on the freighter should not join the pax fleet....well the move is theres by rights!
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But I'll shut my cakehole as i'm starting to sound like a stuck record.........
didn't fly the freighter so I dunno how badly that roster sucked, but that's what you signed up for wasn't it?
Of course if I was in ASL and the AOA said "hey, you wanna fly for a pax airline instead.............."
I just think the whole ASL episode was handled extremely poorly by the AOA which amongst other reasons explains why the membership is down the toilet.
Any news yet on the facts concerning that naughty ASL man who has upset you so much?
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A history lesson you didn't ask for..
"Of course if I was in ASL and the AOA said "hey, you wanna fly for a pax airline instead.."
Whilst that may be what you want to believe; however here's my version...
After a fairly bloody battle lasting the first half 1999 that saw CX effectively grounded for a number of days due to a fairly comprehensive pilot sickout, the company had all the pax guys (but most notably the "A" scalers.. Capts if you will) on a sign or be fired. With about 72 hours to run to the deadline, which in theory could see CX fire all its pilots; a rushed/ fraught deal was struck.
To put this in perspective, I can recall seeing the press conference detailing the "landmark deal" featuring Swire's TT and the AOA's TP on CNN; this was world news! This deal had significant, but staged paycuts for A scale (offset possibly/partially by share options), small but staged pay rises for B Scales, a commitment to resolve Roster Practices and the end of ASL as a separate pilot recruitment agency of CX; because the AOA believed it undermined the careers of junior crew.... ie you
Flights Ops proposed that ASL be ended by a Voluntary Integration. You may think it was a great offer for the ASL guys; however you have to remember that in 1999 by signing to Veta you signed away 5 years flying and lost all your seniority in terms of command. Also you have to remember the ASL/ Veta guys were not on the best of terms. For neither the AOA nor ASL was this a great deal.
Albatross, I doubt you read this far....way too much info.. you are far more comfortable believing the AOA stitched you.... so be it.
PS Come on tell us... what did the nasty ASL man do to you?
Whilst that may be what you want to believe; however here's my version...
After a fairly bloody battle lasting the first half 1999 that saw CX effectively grounded for a number of days due to a fairly comprehensive pilot sickout, the company had all the pax guys (but most notably the "A" scalers.. Capts if you will) on a sign or be fired. With about 72 hours to run to the deadline, which in theory could see CX fire all its pilots; a rushed/ fraught deal was struck.
To put this in perspective, I can recall seeing the press conference detailing the "landmark deal" featuring Swire's TT and the AOA's TP on CNN; this was world news! This deal had significant, but staged paycuts for A scale (offset possibly/partially by share options), small but staged pay rises for B Scales, a commitment to resolve Roster Practices and the end of ASL as a separate pilot recruitment agency of CX; because the AOA believed it undermined the careers of junior crew.... ie you
Flights Ops proposed that ASL be ended by a Voluntary Integration. You may think it was a great offer for the ASL guys; however you have to remember that in 1999 by signing to Veta you signed away 5 years flying and lost all your seniority in terms of command. Also you have to remember the ASL/ Veta guys were not on the best of terms. For neither the AOA nor ASL was this a great deal.
Albatross, I doubt you read this far....way too much info.. you are far more comfortable believing the AOA stitched you.... so be it.
PS Come on tell us... what did the nasty ASL man do to you?
Last edited by Liam Gallagher; 11th Jun 2008 at 07:36.
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What the AOA didn't ask for!
B scales
separate freighter flying
freighter pay scales
C scales
UFO scales
49ers
ASL
Unilaterally imposed payrises
Sign or be fired 1999
The use of 'should' and 'normally' in RP04/07
Sub inflation payrise for B scales
Demise of the FACA
The AOA has been fighting a dunkirk style rearguard action for over a decade now trying to preserve T+C's. The Company has successfully Goebelled its way into having pilots believe all our current ills are due to the AOA.
To the whiners on this website, fix it or get out of the way while others try to fix it!
separate freighter flying
freighter pay scales
C scales
UFO scales
49ers
ASL
Unilaterally imposed payrises
Sign or be fired 1999
The use of 'should' and 'normally' in RP04/07
Sub inflation payrise for B scales
Demise of the FACA
The AOA has been fighting a dunkirk style rearguard action for over a decade now trying to preserve T+C's. The Company has successfully Goebelled its way into having pilots believe all our current ills are due to the AOA.
To the whiners on this website, fix it or get out of the way while others try to fix it!
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Spot on Mr.NC,
Couldn't agree more. To all those willing to put in the effort and work on the GC, well done. I just don't have the passion within me to make such a commitment. I'm very grateful that there are those out there willing to contribute much of their personal time towards the greater good of the pilot body. Good on you.
An old friend of mine many years ago referred to military administrators (blunties) as "speed bumps on the road to mission accomplishment." I suggest that the negative voices on this forum are very much out of the same mold. You're just background noise.
Couldn't agree more. To all those willing to put in the effort and work on the GC, well done. I just don't have the passion within me to make such a commitment. I'm very grateful that there are those out there willing to contribute much of their personal time towards the greater good of the pilot body. Good on you.
An old friend of mine many years ago referred to military administrators (blunties) as "speed bumps on the road to mission accomplishment." I suggest that the negative voices on this forum are very much out of the same mold. You're just background noise.
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Not quite true Stillalbatross. Don't forget about our colleagues who have the seniority for command, but are not in the left set.
A wicked combination of Cat B, C & D FOs, many in VERY dubious circumstances, and some guys who've decided to stay on bases, rather than return to HK for command - mostly a lifestyle & financial decision, proving that the "premium for living in HK" is a myth.
Look around, you'll be surprised at the number of people out there in these categories, and then ask how many current captains suffered the indignity of a delayed command - usually a big dose of intimidation to make them "appreciate their jobs"
A wicked combination of Cat B, C & D FOs, many in VERY dubious circumstances, and some guys who've decided to stay on bases, rather than return to HK for command - mostly a lifestyle & financial decision, proving that the "premium for living in HK" is a myth.
Look around, you'll be surprised at the number of people out there in these categories, and then ask how many current captains suffered the indignity of a delayed command - usually a big dose of intimidation to make them "appreciate their jobs"
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What the AOA has failed to protect its members from:
B scales
separate freighter flying
freighter pay scales
C scales
UFO scales
49ers
ASL
Unilaterally imposed payrises
Sign or be fired 1999
The use of 'should' and 'normally' in RP04/07
Sub inflation payrise for B scales
Demise of the FACA
Members give a good chunk of their salaries to the AOA in order to be protected from the company imposing the above.
I like you NC, I think you are earnestly trying to help. The only problem is you are trying to put lipstick on a pig and call it beautiful. The AOA is broken. I would rather fight for my COS individually than have that outfit screw it up even more, whilst happily taking my dough.
AOA..NO WAY!
B scales
separate freighter flying
freighter pay scales
C scales
UFO scales
49ers
ASL
Unilaterally imposed payrises
Sign or be fired 1999
The use of 'should' and 'normally' in RP04/07
Sub inflation payrise for B scales
Demise of the FACA
Members give a good chunk of their salaries to the AOA in order to be protected from the company imposing the above.
I like you NC, I think you are earnestly trying to help. The only problem is you are trying to put lipstick on a pig and call it beautiful. The AOA is broken. I would rather fight for my COS individually than have that outfit screw it up even more, whilst happily taking my dough.
AOA..NO WAY!
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Quote:
I like you NC, I think you are earnestly trying to help. The only problem is you are trying to put lipstick on a pig and call it beautiful. The AOA is broken. I would rather fight for my COS individually than have that outfit screw it up even more, whilst happily taking my dough.
NC won't/can't really help...he has a history of quitting.
I like you NC, I think you are earnestly trying to help. The only problem is you are trying to put lipstick on a pig and call it beautiful. The AOA is broken. I would rather fight for my COS individually than have that outfit screw it up even more, whilst happily taking my dough.
NC won't/can't really help...he has a history of quitting.
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Joe,
OK, we all know that you don't think NC is going to see out his term. Now please give it up. You are like an old broken record. You obviously have issues with NC.
Do you care to identify yourself, as NC has, so that we can vote/not vote for you in the GC elections? I'll give you the benfit of the doubt but my money says that you are not on the list trying to make a difference.
If NC was running for president he would certainly have my vote. I would rather have a man who is willing to make a stand for what he feels is right than a bloke who justs accepts a shafting happily.
OK, we all know that you don't think NC is going to see out his term. Now please give it up. You are like an old broken record. You obviously have issues with NC.
Do you care to identify yourself, as NC has, so that we can vote/not vote for you in the GC elections? I'll give you the benfit of the doubt but my money says that you are not on the list trying to make a difference.
If NC was running for president he would certainly have my vote. I would rather have a man who is willing to make a stand for what he feels is right than a bloke who justs accepts a shafting happily.
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Albatross
How is an SO's career progression different post 1 Jan 2000 than pre-2000?
CX has always recruited DEFO's. Initially it was exclusively to the pax fleet pre 96ish, then to ASL 96-2000 and then post 2000 to the Freighter fleet and now 2008 to both fleets....
I understand that when SOs were originally introduced (pre-2000) they didn't go onto the Seniority List as DOJ..... do you want to return to that system?
Now Princess, dry your eyes and tell us what the nasty ASL man did to you? Did he have fat fingers... lack of lube.. not send flowers the next day...what?
CX has always recruited DEFO's. Initially it was exclusively to the pax fleet pre 96ish, then to ASL 96-2000 and then post 2000 to the Freighter fleet and now 2008 to both fleets....
I understand that when SOs were originally introduced (pre-2000) they didn't go onto the Seniority List as DOJ..... do you want to return to that system?
Now Princess, dry your eyes and tell us what the nasty ASL man did to you? Did he have fat fingers... lack of lube.. not send flowers the next day...what?
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Enough already
From here on all pax commands go to ASL freighter pilots
I can't make it more crystal clear for this guy. Will somebody please take over.
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stillalbatross
maybe you had to make beds for 3 years because you were a slow learner......
all pax commands from now go to those who get to the top of the list...be they SO, VEta or ex-ASL.
entice us to a decent argument.....rather than just act stupid is as stupid does
maybe you had to make beds for 3 years because you were a slow learner......
all pax commands from now go to those who get to the top of the list...be they SO, VEta or ex-ASL.
entice us to a decent argument.....rather than just act stupid is as stupid does
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No lets not move on...
This is not the first occasion that you have spouted tosh about ASL and when faced with facts you say "move on" only to spout on at another date.
You said.. "From here on all pax commands go to ASL freighter pilots". I think there about 80 ex-ASL pilots on 1 Jan 2008... then after those who want/pass Command (and not all do
) you are back into guys who joined as SO's from 2 Jan 2008... "Ops normal" to coin a phrase...
Albatross look between your legs and see if there are 2 dangly things, if there are, find the courage to answer these two simple questions.
1. Are any of these ex-ASL pilots Junior to me?
2. These pilots are now vacating Freighter commands; have I applied for these now vacant commands?
I await your, as always, considered reply..
PS My understanding is the KA guys come with a DOJ that gives, rightly or wrongly, little or no recognition of their time in KA.... do you know different?
You said.. "From here on all pax commands go to ASL freighter pilots". I think there about 80 ex-ASL pilots on 1 Jan 2008... then after those who want/pass Command (and not all do
) you are back into guys who joined as SO's from 2 Jan 2008... "Ops normal" to coin a phrase... Albatross look between your legs and see if there are 2 dangly things, if there are, find the courage to answer these two simple questions.
1. Are any of these ex-ASL pilots Junior to me?
2. These pilots are now vacating Freighter commands; have I applied for these now vacant commands?
I await your, as always, considered reply..
PS My understanding is the KA guys come with a DOJ that gives, rightly or wrongly, little or no recognition of their time in KA.... do you know different?
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We need to get freighter pay up to pax pay! It's the only way to put Command opportunities back in order of seniority.
I'm not against guys taking early commands on the freighter - it's an immediate pay rise. Why wouldn't any new joiner who has 10 years to wait but already has the experience for a CX command just do them as a Captain on the freighter?
He probably gets to live in the country of his choice and also the choice to stay there on the freighter if he wishes, 'til he's senior enough for a pax base.
Now if freighter pay was equal, any new command on the -400 would come from a conversion from another fleet. It's amazing how CX doesn't do pax commands on the -400 due to sector limitations yet they do in on the freighter everyday - I bet you would see commands on the -400 instantly as CX changes the rules to suit them. Guys/Gals in the 900+ mark on the seniority list would be inline to take all the available commands which they should be! (There are 15 more 747s on the way - fair enough the classics are leaving).
Secondly any new joiner who was looking for a pay rise via an early command might just realize the COS is just not worth it without the command option.
Face it HK isn't worth it any more, why not join on a base then make your own pay rise by taking a freighter command.
Captains are leaving the pax fleet to take a pay cut by flying the freighter just to get on a base. I saw the list on D don't know H's desk!
So once again CX WINS! as we screw ourselves bickering.
Soon the freighter fleet will be bigger than the -400 pax fleet! so in theory the majority of Capts, F/Os will be paid less than the minority! Now that makes sense
I'm not against guys taking early commands on the freighter - it's an immediate pay rise. Why wouldn't any new joiner who has 10 years to wait but already has the experience for a CX command just do them as a Captain on the freighter?
He probably gets to live in the country of his choice and also the choice to stay there on the freighter if he wishes, 'til he's senior enough for a pax base.
Now if freighter pay was equal, any new command on the -400 would come from a conversion from another fleet. It's amazing how CX doesn't do pax commands on the -400 due to sector limitations yet they do in on the freighter everyday - I bet you would see commands on the -400 instantly as CX changes the rules to suit them. Guys/Gals in the 900+ mark on the seniority list would be inline to take all the available commands which they should be!
(There are 15 more 747s on the way - fair enough the classics are leaving).Secondly any new joiner who was looking for a pay rise via an early command might just realize the COS is just not worth it without the command option.
Face it HK isn't worth it any more, why not join on a base then make your own pay rise by taking a freighter command.
Captains are leaving the pax fleet to take a pay cut by flying the freighter just to get on a base. I saw the list on D don't know H's desk!
So once again CX WINS! as we screw ourselves bickering.
Soon the freighter fleet will be bigger than the -400 pax fleet! so in theory the majority of Capts, F/Os will be paid less than the minority! Now that makes sense