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SMOC; these threads follow a pattern
"We need to get freighter pay up to pax pay!"
Yep and we need "World Peace" and we need "no child to go to bed hungry"...
Care to tell us how..... ???
If you are going to type... "stop bickering amongst ourselves "or such platitudes.... save Danny the bandwidth, because like I said these threads follow a pattern....
Yep and we need "World Peace" and we need "no child to go to bed hungry"...
Care to tell us how..... ???
If you are going to type... "stop bickering amongst ourselves "or such platitudes.... save Danny the bandwidth, because like I said these threads follow a pattern....
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1st July
The 70 or so joiners from KA will have a DoJ of 1st July 08. They will be kept in their current KA seniority order and there will be no other NJs on that day.
Is that OK with you stillalbatross?
Is that OK with you stillalbatross?
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Liam,
You're right, but if I had all the answers I wouldn't be in this job.
How about the AOA propose it?
Yes it's a common theme, but are you for or against it? It's the only way I can see us having a somewhat unified pilot body and also restoring some balance to the seniority system.
You're right, but if I had all the answers I wouldn't be in this job.
How about the AOA propose it?
Yes it's a common theme, but are you for or against it? It's the only way I can see us having a somewhat unified pilot body and also restoring some balance to the seniority system.
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Freighter Pay up to Pax Pay
Sorry SMOC I assume you are extracting the urine... however on the off chance you are serious...
"How about the AOA propose it?"
...does the number 49 mean anything to you....
"but are you for or against it?"
No, I am not on a Management Bonus, so like everyone else I'm against. Even putting aside the moral issues, and acting in pure self-interest, I know it is now Management's target for pilot's salaries... Unified FO Salaries ring a bell....
PS Albatross.... found those gonads yet...???
"How about the AOA propose it?"
...does the number 49 mean anything to you....
"but are you for or against it?"
No, I am not on a Management Bonus, so like everyone else I'm against. Even putting aside the moral issues, and acting in pure self-interest, I know it is now Management's target for pilot's salaries... Unified FO Salaries ring a bell....
PS Albatross.... found those gonads yet...???
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stillalbatross
are you saying that the ASL guys joining CX seniority list in 2000 cost you 4 years in time to command? most suggest it was only two years delay, which although a shame is a lot less than you claim. i trust you are not factoring failed command courses into your grumbles!
are you saying that the ASL guys joining CX seniority list in 2000 cost you 4 years in time to command? most suggest it was only two years delay, which although a shame is a lot less than you claim. i trust you are not factoring failed command courses into your grumbles!
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still albatross,
I am not sure if you are just sh1t stirring or genuinely perplexed by our industrial history. I will assume the latter!
From late 80s till 1996 - experienced applicants applied for FO positions (wasn't called DEFO as the majority of joiners were FOs back then) and the inexperienced applied to be SOs. CX screwed around with seniority making it DoJ in HKG, then date of course in ADL then date of upgrade to full FO from Junior FO. Basically they managed to p1ss off several hundred pilots with changing rules on seniority...this was mid 90s...any similarity to today?
From 1996 to 2000 the choices were, broadly speaking, FO in ASL or SO in CX, regardless of experience. Needless to say the ASL option was not desired by those that were recruited to it nor those affected by it. One of the outcomes of the 99 discord was the chance to reunite all pilots in one seniority list...now something to keep in mind...the ASL pilots gave up seniority to join the CX seniority list. Not only that they gave up a potential quick command, as I believe they were promised a 3/4 command rate for ASL versus CX. So to now berate the guys that switched over to CX is incredibly insensitive and ignorant. Those guys gave up fast commands and time in company for the greater good of a common seniority list. So to say they cost you time to command makes me question your understanding of seniority!
Now I do have a reputation for liking numbers...so just to humour me please explain how all those guys giving up their seniority to join CX on 1/1/00 cost you quote "7-9million" and 4 years to command? The guys that joined as SOs late 1999 got a faster command because of the incorporation of ASL guys on 1/1/00.
Just to give a big picture perspective to this, something sadly lacking at this airline!; there is no rhyme nor reason to these events. Still albatross, if you really believe the AOA has planned the current mess and is responsible for it, I suggest you sue them for lost potential earnings. I have only been involved with the GC for a short while in my career but in that time they managed to hide their machiavellian plans to screw your career!
To non AOA members...there is no silver bullet to our problems. What I do know for sure is that 2400 individuals will have no more success, and likely to have less success, than an organisation that represents 2400 pilots. History is replete with industrial examples proving that hypothesis. But if you believe you know better, save your 1% and when anything bad happens, tell yourself it was the AOA's fault, and when anything good happens(as if!) tell yourself it is because you saved your 1%. To me being in the AOA is like taking anti oxidants....can't prove it helps but I know it doesn't hurt.
I am not sure if you are just sh1t stirring or genuinely perplexed by our industrial history. I will assume the latter!
From late 80s till 1996 - experienced applicants applied for FO positions (wasn't called DEFO as the majority of joiners were FOs back then) and the inexperienced applied to be SOs. CX screwed around with seniority making it DoJ in HKG, then date of course in ADL then date of upgrade to full FO from Junior FO. Basically they managed to p1ss off several hundred pilots with changing rules on seniority...this was mid 90s...any similarity to today?
From 1996 to 2000 the choices were, broadly speaking, FO in ASL or SO in CX, regardless of experience. Needless to say the ASL option was not desired by those that were recruited to it nor those affected by it. One of the outcomes of the 99 discord was the chance to reunite all pilots in one seniority list...now something to keep in mind...the ASL pilots gave up seniority to join the CX seniority list. Not only that they gave up a potential quick command, as I believe they were promised a 3/4 command rate for ASL versus CX. So to now berate the guys that switched over to CX is incredibly insensitive and ignorant. Those guys gave up fast commands and time in company for the greater good of a common seniority list. So to say they cost you time to command makes me question your understanding of seniority!
Now I do have a reputation for liking numbers...so just to humour me please explain how all those guys giving up their seniority to join CX on 1/1/00 cost you quote "7-9million" and 4 years to command? The guys that joined as SOs late 1999 got a faster command because of the incorporation of ASL guys on 1/1/00.
Just to give a big picture perspective to this, something sadly lacking at this airline!; there is no rhyme nor reason to these events. Still albatross, if you really believe the AOA has planned the current mess and is responsible for it, I suggest you sue them for lost potential earnings. I have only been involved with the GC for a short while in my career but in that time they managed to hide their machiavellian plans to screw your career!
To non AOA members...there is no silver bullet to our problems. What I do know for sure is that 2400 individuals will have no more success, and likely to have less success, than an organisation that represents 2400 pilots. History is replete with industrial examples proving that hypothesis. But if you believe you know better, save your 1% and when anything bad happens, tell yourself it was the AOA's fault, and when anything good happens(as if!) tell yourself it is because you saved your 1%. To me being in the AOA is like taking anti oxidants....can't prove it helps but I know it doesn't hurt.
Last edited by Numero Crunchero; 13th Jun 2008 at 16:23.
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Liam
...does the number 49 mean anything to you....
No, I am not on a Management Bonus, so like everyone else I'm against. Even putting aside the moral issues, and acting in pure self-interest, I know it is now Management's target for pilot's salaries... Unified FO Salaries ring a bell....
Sorry but who's "everyone else" - freighter guys wouldn't want a pay rise, the guys/gals next up for command wouldn't want an earlier command?
The unified F/O salary was a effectively a pay rise, CX wanted DE F/Os to be based on freighter pay the AOA made sure it was based on pax pay!
The moral issue? Yes it's disgusting that colleagues should get a pay rise
What are you on? a pay rise is a good thing! or does it only count when it's for you?
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SMOC
take a deep breath . I thought my post was pretty clear...I'll say it again in more words..
One of the stated aims of the 2001 dispute was "A-Scale" for all. As you know some individual members of the AOA suffered very badly as a result of that dispute and the AOA is now a shadow of its former self as a result; so to suggest that to date the AOA has failed to ask/suggest a common salary is fatuous.
The only pilots to benefit from Freighter Pay are those on Management bonuses. Even if a pilot didn't care that someone is paid less than him, the very real danger of that attitude is the lower salary becomes Management's target salary. With the A scale pay frozen, inflation is making A=B; Currency and home country inlation is eroding HK B scale such that B scale FO's are accepting C Scale commands. New pax FO's are receiving something more than C, but less than B on the UFO salary.
Without doubt new joiners on lower salaries are bad news for all pilots; unless of course you are on bonus....
One of the stated aims of the 2001 dispute was "A-Scale" for all. As you know some individual members of the AOA suffered very badly as a result of that dispute and the AOA is now a shadow of its former self as a result; so to suggest that to date the AOA has failed to ask/suggest a common salary is fatuous.
The only pilots to benefit from Freighter Pay are those on Management bonuses. Even if a pilot didn't care that someone is paid less than him, the very real danger of that attitude is the lower salary becomes Management's target salary. With the A scale pay frozen, inflation is making A=B; Currency and home country inlation is eroding HK B scale such that B scale FO's are accepting C Scale commands. New pax FO's are receiving something more than C, but less than B on the UFO salary.
Without doubt new joiners on lower salaries are bad news for all pilots; unless of course you are on bonus....
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Albatross
Whilst I am sure NC will reply to you, it seems the main thrust of your angst is you think the AOA should not have agreed the 2000 Integration of ASL.
In 1999 the AOA saw benefit in the Integration as it removed the threat of the company forming other ASL's to further denegrate pilot's salaries and divide the pilot group. I understand IFALPA was involved and the AOA wished to get a "scope" clause in our COS.
The company essentially agreed to recruit all future pilots into CX/Veta, but on a "Junior Fleet" concept for the freighters. I believe the AOA held its nose and agreed this because, firstly they were all about to fired in 72 hours, and secondly they saw that by reunifying the pilot body they could regroup and then take the company on at later date... ie July 2001....
You have a mental model how things would have been if ASL had of remained separate with the pax and freight worlds separated; one on B and other on C scale. Do you really believe the company would have settled for that? What makes you think you would not have been recruited as an SO into ASL2 Ltd and on a B-scale lite?
Integration has not been without it's benefit. Many of your contemporaries have picked up Freighter Commands and are now on base and presumably fairly content. SO's who joined in the 90's have done the early Freighter Command, done their 3 years, and are now yr 5 pax Capts.... Has the AOA's decision benefited them?
Whilst I note you haven't answered my questions directly, I assume you joined after 1 Jan 2000 and that you haven't applied for a Freighter Command because it is not attractive to you.
So to summarize your position, pilots senior to you are getting commands and that upsets you. Pilots junior to you are taking commands that you do not want and that upsets you. Before you joined, the Company had an Integration; you knew that, but joined anyway... it upsets you....
Another question if you have the minerals...
Why don't you just leave..... please....?
In 1999 the AOA saw benefit in the Integration as it removed the threat of the company forming other ASL's to further denegrate pilot's salaries and divide the pilot group. I understand IFALPA was involved and the AOA wished to get a "scope" clause in our COS.
The company essentially agreed to recruit all future pilots into CX/Veta, but on a "Junior Fleet" concept for the freighters. I believe the AOA held its nose and agreed this because, firstly they were all about to fired in 72 hours, and secondly they saw that by reunifying the pilot body they could regroup and then take the company on at later date... ie July 2001....
You have a mental model how things would have been if ASL had of remained separate with the pax and freight worlds separated; one on B and other on C scale. Do you really believe the company would have settled for that? What makes you think you would not have been recruited as an SO into ASL2 Ltd and on a B-scale lite?
Integration has not been without it's benefit. Many of your contemporaries have picked up Freighter Commands and are now on base and presumably fairly content. SO's who joined in the 90's have done the early Freighter Command, done their 3 years, and are now yr 5 pax Capts.... Has the AOA's decision benefited them?
Whilst I note you haven't answered my questions directly, I assume you joined after 1 Jan 2000 and that you haven't applied for a Freighter Command because it is not attractive to you.
So to summarize your position, pilots senior to you are getting commands and that upsets you. Pilots junior to you are taking commands that you do not want and that upsets you. Before you joined, the Company had an Integration; you knew that, but joined anyway... it upsets you....
Another question if you have the minerals...
Why don't you just leave..... please....?
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Liam
I totally agree with you. That's the reason we should aim to get rid of freighter pay because it is the lower pay and the target as you say for management, and as we both said people are leaving HKG B scale pax commands for O/S freighter pay.
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stillalbatross
If you joined before the formation of ASL then it cost you time to command. If you joined after most ASL pilots were reintegrated(ie 1/1/00) into CX then time to command reduced slightly. That is because some of the freighter commands went to CX pilots as opposed to all freighter commands going to ASL pilots before 1/1/00.
Now lets look at the ASL pilots that joined CX 1/1/00.
The Captains remained as freighter captains on whatever base until their seniority allows them to become pax captains - I suspect that will be in the next year or so. So how do you assert they got massive payrises? I don't know if any are pax captains yet so they are still waiting for their massive payrises after almost 9 years remaining on their freighter pay. Their pay(ie CX freighter) was so poor that some even gave up being freighter captains to be HKG pax FOs, after their seniority had built up enough to be FOs - around 2003-2004.
The FOs - well they have been well and truly screwed by the reintegration. If they had remained in ASL they would all be Captains as 3/4 of the commands were promised to ASL FOs back in 1/1/00. Instead those FOs that transferred across had to do a further 3-4years as freighter FOs before finally having the seniority to come across to pax FO. Those guys are still waiting for their seniority to build up to get a command on the pax fleet.
Unlike other airlines, CX never separated pax and freighter flying completely. That is why since the late 90s you have had the most senior and expensive A scale CNs flying the freighter on many occasions. Management is either too myopic or have too much 'loss of face' to ever admit to getting the freighter equation wrong. Pax FOs are getting more senior and more expensive due to delayed upgrades - so whilst CX appears to win on the freighter costing they lose on the pax costing.
Politics wise...I wasn't involved with the reintegration of ASL in 1999 but I know many of the participants and I might respectfully assert they knew what they were doing. The aim was to reintegrate not separate! I can assure you the AOA did look at other airlines and talk to other unions. For the american style of unionism to work you need american pilots under american protection. Likewise for UK or Aussie unionism...just because other people had wins doing things their way doesn't naturally mean we did things the wrong way! Still you are entitled to your own opinion and I hope you are one of the 22 nominees so you can share it and be the silver bullet we need!
By the way, I have no idea how you got the numbers you got. Firstly, how do you come up with a 4 year delay to command? If you joined after 1/1/00 then your command is/was not delayed at all as the ex ASL guys are senior to you. If you joined before ASL was formed then you are already a CN and I can tell you my delay was not 4 years, probably closer to 2years.
For the sake of a numerical exercise I will assume your 4 years are correct. That means you missed on CN1-SCN2 pay for 4 years then remained 4 increments below for the remainder of your career in CX. Assuming you were due to be a CN today but will be delayed by 4 years from today, the NPV of all the future lost earnings, using your 10% discount rate, is close to $1.6million HKD.
Now lets look at the ASL pilots that joined CX 1/1/00.
The Captains remained as freighter captains on whatever base until their seniority allows them to become pax captains - I suspect that will be in the next year or so. So how do you assert they got massive payrises? I don't know if any are pax captains yet so they are still waiting for their massive payrises after almost 9 years remaining on their freighter pay. Their pay(ie CX freighter) was so poor that some even gave up being freighter captains to be HKG pax FOs, after their seniority had built up enough to be FOs - around 2003-2004.
The FOs - well they have been well and truly screwed by the reintegration. If they had remained in ASL they would all be Captains as 3/4 of the commands were promised to ASL FOs back in 1/1/00. Instead those FOs that transferred across had to do a further 3-4years as freighter FOs before finally having the seniority to come across to pax FO. Those guys are still waiting for their seniority to build up to get a command on the pax fleet.
Unlike other airlines, CX never separated pax and freighter flying completely. That is why since the late 90s you have had the most senior and expensive A scale CNs flying the freighter on many occasions. Management is either too myopic or have too much 'loss of face' to ever admit to getting the freighter equation wrong. Pax FOs are getting more senior and more expensive due to delayed upgrades - so whilst CX appears to win on the freighter costing they lose on the pax costing.
Politics wise...I wasn't involved with the reintegration of ASL in 1999 but I know many of the participants and I might respectfully assert they knew what they were doing. The aim was to reintegrate not separate! I can assure you the AOA did look at other airlines and talk to other unions. For the american style of unionism to work you need american pilots under american protection. Likewise for UK or Aussie unionism...just because other people had wins doing things their way doesn't naturally mean we did things the wrong way! Still you are entitled to your own opinion and I hope you are one of the 22 nominees so you can share it and be the silver bullet we need!
By the way, I have no idea how you got the numbers you got. Firstly, how do you come up with a 4 year delay to command? If you joined after 1/1/00 then your command is/was not delayed at all as the ex ASL guys are senior to you. If you joined before ASL was formed then you are already a CN and I can tell you my delay was not 4 years, probably closer to 2years.
For the sake of a numerical exercise I will assume your 4 years are correct. That means you missed on CN1-SCN2 pay for 4 years then remained 4 increments below for the remainder of your career in CX. Assuming you were due to be a CN today but will be delayed by 4 years from today, the NPV of all the future lost earnings, using your 10% discount rate, is close to $1.6million HKD.
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NC...why don't you stop referring to the A scale as 'the most expensive'...and use the term 'higher paid' instead? Your phrasing is prejudicial and implies that they are paid 'too much' by comparison. Needless to say, none of us is paid what we're worth anymore. Thank you.
excuse me
excuse me for being thick...but why should ANYONE have to take a pay cut to get a promotion to captain??? regardless of what they fly in CX
and pax f/o's going to the freighter for commands and freighter captains coming to the pax fleet as f/o's???????what the hell is wrong with this company?
and pax f/o's going to the freighter for commands and freighter captains coming to the pax fleet as f/o's???????what the hell is wrong with this company?
It was ever thus. Senior copilots have (almost always) earned more than junior captains by cherry picking trips with good overtime and allowances, certainly on bidline based roster. That's why some guys prefer to remain in the RHS-it's life style. Do you work to live, or live to work?
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Except CX doesn't have a bid line nor a system to "cherry pick" never has. The reason CX can have freighter Captains paid less than pax F/Os is due to the fact they have divided all the pay scales so that the crews are divided, and therefore easy to conquer, a managements dream! 
Edit: Clarification
Edit: Clarification
Last edited by SMOC; 18th Jun 2008 at 00:08.
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>excuse me for being thick...but why should ANYONE have to take a pay cut to get a promotion to captain???
You don't have too.
You don't have too.
Last edited by simplex; 17th Jun 2008 at 17:55.
There is only one seniority list so I don't understand your question. Are you saying someone is flying pax aircraft as a Captain out of seniority? If so, pm me the name and I'll check.
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You are wasting your time stillalbatross...
Busy B is part of the AOA, the association thats as useless as t1ts on a man.
The AOA doesnt think anything is wrong with DECs. There is no threat to the old timer, A-scale, good ole boys.
AOA, no WAY!
Busy B is part of the AOA, the association thats as useless as t1ts on a man.
The AOA doesnt think anything is wrong with DECs. There is no threat to the old timer, A-scale, good ole boys.
AOA, no WAY!