Retirement at 55, 65, 75....
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loop de loop - my padawan;-)
Patches, first, I hope we fly together as having seen morale at the lowest point in over 15 years here I would love to sit next to someone like you who is happy to be here.
The current growth rate is not 10% - with all the aircraft orders that have been announced over the last couple of years the projected growth rate is below what it has been for the last 6 years. That means the following figures are optimistic.
If you get no bypass pay you will have to work for another 3 years to break even on what you would have earned at 55 with RA55. So have a think about that. When you are 55 you have 3 years less Gross earnings. Sure, now you can work another 3 years to catch up to where you should have been....and that means 3 years less of that pesky retirement thing. You are effectively working for free for three years!
As loopdeloop alludes to, any slowdown, of even 1-2% of growth rate, will increase the number of years you work just to break even on what the rest of us should have at 55. If the percentage growth rate slows to the levels it was from the mid 90s until early 2000s then you will end up working into your 60s to have career earnings as much as your 3 month senior colleagues earned up to 55.
So yes you get the opportunity to work to 65 - and earn as much over your career as the B scalers do by 55. Still, if you are like the zoologist, flying a shiny new jet will more than make up for any monetary loss - but just don't expect the 85% bonus that he gets!
ACMS/Cpt underpants et al,
More than half the captains are B and C scale - its a senior vs junior issue. I may be a bit different but I see my rights here no differently than I did 15 years ago. Yes I have more stripes but that doesn't make me any smarter or better looking (beer does though!) or more righteous or more deserving of corporate latitude . I can still remember many of my A scale colleagues in the early 90s complaining about the 'long sleeve shirters with cufflinks' complaining about how expensive ferraris had become - whats changed....we, their incumbents, wear short sleeve shirts and complain about how our salaries were cut but we still earn 20+% more than our FOs will when they upgrade!
Everyone, company included, thought B scales would have caught up with A scales by now. I still remember our current GMA (and the zoologist) talking about never having a B scale CN - but that was in 2001. So as I keep reiterating, its not my fault there are B scales nor is is B scales fault that A scales haven't had a payrise - its our employer who has created this quagmire of different CoS!
CX - its just a job!
The current growth rate is not 10% - with all the aircraft orders that have been announced over the last couple of years the projected growth rate is below what it has been for the last 6 years. That means the following figures are optimistic.
If you get no bypass pay you will have to work for another 3 years to break even on what you would have earned at 55 with RA55. So have a think about that. When you are 55 you have 3 years less Gross earnings. Sure, now you can work another 3 years to catch up to where you should have been....and that means 3 years less of that pesky retirement thing. You are effectively working for free for three years!
As loopdeloop alludes to, any slowdown, of even 1-2% of growth rate, will increase the number of years you work just to break even on what the rest of us should have at 55. If the percentage growth rate slows to the levels it was from the mid 90s until early 2000s then you will end up working into your 60s to have career earnings as much as your 3 month senior colleagues earned up to 55.
So yes you get the opportunity to work to 65 - and earn as much over your career as the B scalers do by 55. Still, if you are like the zoologist, flying a shiny new jet will more than make up for any monetary loss - but just don't expect the 85% bonus that he gets!
ACMS/Cpt underpants et al,
More than half the captains are B and C scale - its a senior vs junior issue. I may be a bit different but I see my rights here no differently than I did 15 years ago. Yes I have more stripes but that doesn't make me any smarter or better looking (beer does though!) or more righteous or more deserving of corporate latitude . I can still remember many of my A scale colleagues in the early 90s complaining about the 'long sleeve shirters with cufflinks' complaining about how expensive ferraris had become - whats changed....we, their incumbents, wear short sleeve shirts and complain about how our salaries were cut but we still earn 20+% more than our FOs will when they upgrade!
Everyone, company included, thought B scales would have caught up with A scales by now. I still remember our current GMA (and the zoologist) talking about never having a B scale CN - but that was in 2001. So as I keep reiterating, its not my fault there are B scales nor is is B scales fault that A scales haven't had a payrise - its our employer who has created this quagmire of different CoS!
CX - its just a job!
Read the thread Raven old boy.
I never started the A B thing. But I sure as hell wont let it pass by.
And I don't care if you never fly with me, your loss young fella.
1/ I'd never buy next to an airport
and 2/ if i did I'd have a camera and scanner switched on 24/7 waiting for heroes like you to bob into view.
I never started the A B thing. But I sure as hell wont let it pass by.
And I don't care if you never fly with me, your loss young fella.
1/ I'd never buy next to an airport
and 2/ if i did I'd have a camera and scanner switched on 24/7 waiting for heroes like you to bob into view.
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STOP THE ARGUING CHILDREN!
as I said earlier, there are two groups:
1) those who are already Captains and are quite happy to see age 65.
2) FO's who don't want to see age 65 (until they are Captains, then clause 1 is just fine).
Because of the reality of the above, none of us has an argument worth debating. The real hypocrisy is the FO's, who know that the minute they are made Captain they will be happy with age 65.
as I said earlier, there are two groups:
1) those who are already Captains and are quite happy to see age 65.
2) FO's who don't want to see age 65 (until they are Captains, then clause 1 is just fine).
Because of the reality of the above, none of us has an argument worth debating. The real hypocrisy is the FO's, who know that the minute they are made Captain they will be happy with age 65.
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Aren't you all missing the point?
Maybe I've got this all wrong, but isn't deciding whether someone can do a job based on race, gender, or AGE - discriminatory? If everyone could, for one minute, consider the issue from other than a purely pecuniary one, shouldn't we all support any action that seeks to reduce discrimination?
Let's face it - everyone is checked on a regular basis for competency and fitness to work as a pilot; why should age have anything to do with it? And just because it is 'written in my contract' doesn't justify it.
And the ridiculous thing is that if anyone returned to their domicile (ie almost anywhere except China) they would wholeheartedly endorse the anti-discrimination policies of their homeland.
I am probably dreaming, but I would like the AOA to rise above the petty politicking and endless A vs B crap and actually take a principled stand on this. Age discrimination is wrong and any efforts by CX or the government to reduce or eliminate it should be fully endorsed as a step in the right direction.
Anything less is selfish and backward.
Let's face it - everyone is checked on a regular basis for competency and fitness to work as a pilot; why should age have anything to do with it? And just because it is 'written in my contract' doesn't justify it.
And the ridiculous thing is that if anyone returned to their domicile (ie almost anywhere except China) they would wholeheartedly endorse the anti-discrimination policies of their homeland.
I am probably dreaming, but I would like the AOA to rise above the petty politicking and endless A vs B crap and actually take a principled stand on this. Age discrimination is wrong and any efforts by CX or the government to reduce or eliminate it should be fully endorsed as a step in the right direction.
Anything less is selfish and backward.
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I didn't have a problem with 55. I DO have a problem with my my T&C being chopped up by each successive DFO. I DO have a problem being short of the goals I set when I joined (through no fault of my own).
We're in the same boat, like it or not - I would like to see the 55 issue resolved to our mutual satisfaction, irrespective of contract. If you're thinking clearly, I'm sure you think it's a disgrace that the company is choosing to ignore bypass pay. But at the same time - if we're talking reparations - how about what they did to us?
I'm not in the same boat as MFL and others with 10, 15 or more years as an A scale captain. Ironically, I would like to see them leave as well, as they really did have the best years in this company - a lot of them...But, what's good for the goose etc.
While on the subject of wish lists, heres' mine (in no order):
A single payscale.
Variable retirement age, 60 max.
Line bid schedules.
Bypass pay.
A pilot as a DFO.
100% AOA membership.
A representative and more aggressive MEC.
Actually, any four would do.
We're in the same boat, like it or not - I would like to see the 55 issue resolved to our mutual satisfaction, irrespective of contract. If you're thinking clearly, I'm sure you think it's a disgrace that the company is choosing to ignore bypass pay. But at the same time - if we're talking reparations - how about what they did to us?
I'm not in the same boat as MFL and others with 10, 15 or more years as an A scale captain. Ironically, I would like to see them leave as well, as they really did have the best years in this company - a lot of them...But, what's good for the goose etc.
While on the subject of wish lists, heres' mine (in no order):
A single payscale.
Variable retirement age, 60 max.
Line bid schedules.
Bypass pay.
A pilot as a DFO.
100% AOA membership.
A representative and more aggressive MEC.
Actually, any four would do.
Join Date: Dec 2007
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Men behaving like boys.
Boys, boys, boys. Stop fighting each other and go after the enemy. "A" scale, "B" scale, "Z" scale!! Who cares. These conditions were "agreed to" by self inerest and greedy wannabes. You aint going to change anything by attacking each other. I suggest you all use this forum because you are all frustrated and spineless, too scared to bob your head up. Get smart, UNITE, stick together and go after the enemy. GO ON STRIKE if necessary. Make the enemy take notice. Attacking each other anonamously here like brat kids will only see you all suffer further in future. The ball is in your court.
Hope you don't daydream like this when flying...
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Capt Shreddies
While on the subject of wish lists, heres' mine (in no order):
A single payscale.
Variable retirement age, 60 max.
Line bid schedules.
Bypass pay.
A pilot as a DFO.
100% AOA membership.
A representative and more aggressive MEC
How about these four;
Single payscale...C Scale for all
No retirement age.. work till you drop (on C scale you'll have to!)
Bypass Pay; but only when accessed suitable for FO or Capt
My mate Phil as DFO...
There ya go.... a happy Capt Underpants
A single payscale.
Variable retirement age, 60 max.
Line bid schedules.
Bypass pay.
A pilot as a DFO.
100% AOA membership.
A representative and more aggressive MEC
How about these four;
Single payscale...C Scale for all
No retirement age.. work till you drop (on C scale you'll have to!)
Bypass Pay; but only when accessed suitable for FO or Capt
My mate Phil as DFO...
There ya go.... a happy Capt Underpants
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Karrupted
You raise a well rehearsed, but nonetheless flawed argument.... perhaps it is you, however, who needs to take a minute to consider...
This is not discriminatory... no one is saying that 55 year old are not capable. Ideed our contract allows for flying beyond 55. This is a contractual matter.
There are plently of people around the world who are employed on term contracts. These term are normally set as a fixed period of days, months, years. Others have their contracts set to terminate at the completion of a task or project. These contracts are the lifeblood of the Banking, Finance, Construction and Entertainment industries to name a few. Moreover, I understand that Courts in both Canada and Germany have taken this view.
My contract happens to have a term determined by my 55 birthday; extendable at the gift of the company. I knew that when I joined; equally I knew that those older than me would leave at 55 and, by way of seniority, I would move up the ladder. I therefore view my contract as not only having obligations to my employers, but my fellow pilots as well.
Should anyone wish to alter that contract.. renegotiate.... but please don't dictate.....
This is not discriminatory... no one is saying that 55 year old are not capable. Ideed our contract allows for flying beyond 55. This is a contractual matter.
There are plently of people around the world who are employed on term contracts. These term are normally set as a fixed period of days, months, years. Others have their contracts set to terminate at the completion of a task or project. These contracts are the lifeblood of the Banking, Finance, Construction and Entertainment industries to name a few. Moreover, I understand that Courts in both Canada and Germany have taken this view.
My contract happens to have a term determined by my 55 birthday; extendable at the gift of the company. I knew that when I joined; equally I knew that those older than me would leave at 55 and, by way of seniority, I would move up the ladder. I therefore view my contract as not only having obligations to my employers, but my fellow pilots as well.
Should anyone wish to alter that contract.. renegotiate.... but please don't dictate.....
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FYI the difference between A & B has been about HK$1m per year for the last 15 years, if you include P-fund.Assuming similar lifestyles(which might not be the case of course) that's HK$15m extra disposable income & counting.Perhaps it puts that A-scale "paycut" into some perspective.There is no A-scaler who "needs" to work after 55.
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Liam - term contracts specify a term, normally in months. Our C of S specifies an age.
I reckon that if and when (more robust) age discrimination legislation is enacted in Hong Kong, ie statute law, age related clauses in our C of S will have to be deleted. The limiting factor then becomes the ability to hold the licence, 65 yrs+...
In this case payment of bypass pay could be deemed "discrimanatory" by those not receiving it...
I reckon that if and when (more robust) age discrimination legislation is enacted in Hong Kong, ie statute law, age related clauses in our C of S will have to be deleted. The limiting factor then becomes the ability to hold the licence, 65 yrs+...
In this case payment of bypass pay could be deemed "discrimanatory" by those not receiving it...
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1200firm.
Wow.....what have you been smoking?? Are you sure the difference is not closer to 100 billion??
The difference in salary between a B Scale captain and me is about $20,000 HKG per month! I'm not suggesting that's a small number, but it sure isn't 15 million!
Not only that, it depends on housing allowance as well. If you were as stupid as I was and "locked in" your allowance in the low $40,000 range per month, then the difference between me and my B scale counterpart who is "floating" at $60,000 per month is ZERO!!! He may even be making more!
Furthermore, compare my Hong Kong salary to a B scale Captain on a base, and the crappy HKG dollar may have also nullified the difference.
I'll give you that the A scaler based in HKG might receive some travel allowance (as do some early B scalers) and better health coverage.
However, the A and B scalers based in North America will have better health coverage than anyone based in Hong Kong.
And lastly I, like most A scalers, gave up my provident fund a long time ago.
So 1200firm, does that sound like the "15 million" difference you describe????
Number Cruncher, is my gist correct, or is the difference 15 million as 1200firm contends?
Wow.....what have you been smoking?? Are you sure the difference is not closer to 100 billion??
The difference in salary between a B Scale captain and me is about $20,000 HKG per month! I'm not suggesting that's a small number, but it sure isn't 15 million!
Not only that, it depends on housing allowance as well. If you were as stupid as I was and "locked in" your allowance in the low $40,000 range per month, then the difference between me and my B scale counterpart who is "floating" at $60,000 per month is ZERO!!! He may even be making more!
Furthermore, compare my Hong Kong salary to a B scale Captain on a base, and the crappy HKG dollar may have also nullified the difference.
I'll give you that the A scaler based in HKG might receive some travel allowance (as do some early B scalers) and better health coverage.
However, the A and B scalers based in North America will have better health coverage than anyone based in Hong Kong.
And lastly I, like most A scalers, gave up my provident fund a long time ago.
So 1200firm, does that sound like the "15 million" difference you describe????
Number Cruncher, is my gist correct, or is the difference 15 million as 1200firm contends?
Dear Liam,
Slightly off topic but every time I see mention of “line bids” I cringe. If you want a particular day off you have to bid for the line that has that day off and have to accept the remainder of the roster which may be extremely undesirable. They are better than nothing but not as good as a non-seniority based preferential bidding system.
Being non-seniority based means that everyone shares the good rosters and the ****ty ones. Just ask QF pilots about years on reserve.
Many systems out there allow you to plug in preferences such as: late starts, early starts, particular port overnights, night flying only, short layovers, long layovers etc.
Aim high you know management are going to whittle it down.
Now back to the battle.
Cheers
Slightly off topic but every time I see mention of “line bids” I cringe. If you want a particular day off you have to bid for the line that has that day off and have to accept the remainder of the roster which may be extremely undesirable. They are better than nothing but not as good as a non-seniority based preferential bidding system.
Being non-seniority based means that everyone shares the good rosters and the ****ty ones. Just ask QF pilots about years on reserve.
Many systems out there allow you to plug in preferences such as: late starts, early starts, particular port overnights, night flying only, short layovers, long layovers etc.
Aim high you know management are going to whittle it down.
Now back to the battle.
Cheers
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As someone who has a lot to lose out of RA65 (non cos08) sure i would like my command sooner but if you want to work here till you die (or lose your medical whichever is sooner) i don't care just pay me what is rightfully mine and that is BYPASS PAY when i am entitled to it (that means not when i am categorised!) because i PERSONALLY have no intention of reaping the benifits till im 65 just like what i signed up for. And i dont give a flying F*%K about AvB!
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RL For president?
I think not. He does not even want it, I would hope, if he does it is all for his own ego, he quit rejoined and is not the authority he claims to be but is only good with numbers, the end. Listen but do not take it as the Gospel.
A vs B scales is all new and old **** over again, who stood up for A scalers in 99, B way more than A, clear as RL's mud.
RA 65 lets see what the f*^%$t the AOA comes up with, I am sure it will fall short of what junior officers deserve, but lets see what is on offer.
The wholier than you know who, go and f)(*#$ing read a history book. As for the new comers to this outfit, learn fast or you will be left waaaaaaay behind. That is the game being played and has nothing to do with the AOA, it is YOU. B tried to help A once and it sure as hell did not work, so look after yourself anything else will get you nowhere in this place.
You "guys" are all lost in this cause, it could have been sorted out a long time ago, so do not whine here, put your money where your mouth is. I think NOT.
Sorry forgot, we are talking about CX pilots, that is NEVER going to happen. You invented aviation. Sorry WE DID, I am one of the same F*@#)%wits that you are.
I think not. He does not even want it, I would hope, if he does it is all for his own ego, he quit rejoined and is not the authority he claims to be but is only good with numbers, the end. Listen but do not take it as the Gospel.
A vs B scales is all new and old **** over again, who stood up for A scalers in 99, B way more than A, clear as RL's mud.
RA 65 lets see what the f*^%$t the AOA comes up with, I am sure it will fall short of what junior officers deserve, but lets see what is on offer.
The wholier than you know who, go and f)(*#$ing read a history book. As for the new comers to this outfit, learn fast or you will be left waaaaaaay behind. That is the game being played and has nothing to do with the AOA, it is YOU. B tried to help A once and it sure as hell did not work, so look after yourself anything else will get you nowhere in this place.
You "guys" are all lost in this cause, it could have been sorted out a long time ago, so do not whine here, put your money where your mouth is. I think NOT.
Sorry forgot, we are talking about CX pilots, that is NEVER going to happen. You invented aviation. Sorry WE DID, I am one of the same F*@#)%wits that you are.
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Forgot
Who gave you BPP?
Yes he is a 49er, so do not even think you can achieve anything by sounding off here, it will get you nowhere. What do you deserve and expect? Everyone else before you sold you out, so what do you expect?
RA 65, NR is mad he wants what he wants, so do not mess with him, he is already hanging on a fine line, thanks to the flypast, sorry to bring that up again, but he will get what he wants despite what you think or say. Just accept it or else!
At the end of the day we invented aviation, and NR is now leading us.
Yes he is a 49er, so do not even think you can achieve anything by sounding off here, it will get you nowhere. What do you deserve and expect? Everyone else before you sold you out, so what do you expect?
RA 65, NR is mad he wants what he wants, so do not mess with him, he is already hanging on a fine line, thanks to the flypast, sorry to bring that up again, but he will get what he wants despite what you think or say. Just accept it or else!
At the end of the day we invented aviation, and NR is now leading us.
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they should make it so that like 15yr olds can fly, even 10 yr olds so that way they changes both min and max restrictions lol