The Demise of Hong Kong Airlines

[captain.diperkosa]

I forgot to tell you.
· No Schooling
· No Housing.
· No Medical coverage.
· No medical insurance. (They have some plan but it cover nothing at all, but nice medical card for your wallet)
· Provident fund ( i think you cal 401) very low.
· Holiday each year 14 days, and you never get your requests.
· Holiday is paid basic salary only. This mean you get half pay.
· You work Public holidays and get no overtime or extra day off.
· No travel tickets to your country each year. You stay in Hong Kong and can not afford to fly home and see family.
· Lowest pilot pay in Hong Kong. Small lear jet pilot in Hong Kong get 70,000 MORE EACH MONTH than HKA airline pilot.
· Contract changed regularly. No you do not get consulted or have a chance to negotiate it. Disagree = SACKED
· Why am I here? not for much longer. We were wanting to leave but global crisis made us stay. Now some pilots resign. many more this next 6 months.
That my friend is no B.S

[oxygenmask]

Thank you

Thank you for your honesty. We are a couple of guys working in the desert, 3 to be precise, that were invited to start the fleet. Attractive salaries where promised, otherwise no one would leave the desert and go there. We were told around 16k US/month because of housing. Any carrier that wants to operate A330 needs to compete with Air China or Korean Air salaries if they want people with some experience to resign from other Airlines. Makes no sense the salary that you are saying comparing to what we were told. I do believe in your words, thanks. Regarding holidays, yes they mentioned 28 days/year. I am surprised by what you say. I will not hijack this trend anymore with my own questions. I wish you guys all the best, will have a lot to think before I make a decision. Thanks

[captain.diperkosa]

I can not comment on A330 package because the company did not write anything. What I can be sure of is what you were told will not happen. In HKA history has repeated itself many times over. Always bad things. The 13800 would be for 80 or 90 hours because salary here largly based on flight Hour. They want to give false informations. They will lie, trust me. What they not tell you is no A330 routes. The company has much resitence to get the routes. Government know HKA are poorly run company, survive entirely on Hainan cash handout. Government worry A330 become another failed operation like Oasis. Hainan owes billions. Soon Chinese government want some money back. Hainan has many not paid bills. HKA can not be profitable to Moscow or Turkey or any international routes for next 4 years.

If you get job, and they get A330 could mean A330 parked and have no routes to fly for long time. This means you get 50,000 each month ($6450) and do not forget about living cost here. You WILL lose money.

I would try one of the 27 A330 jobs on offer.
Search Results - Flight Jobs

Sorry for my poor English.

[captain.diperkosa]

Now you say something about housing allowance? They told you that? Now you know they are really telling lies. Wait till your face to face interview. They look you in the eye, smile and lie to you. When you agree, get to hong kong and the contract changes. Imagine how you feel. You can not believe that a grown man can lie directly to your face with no care in the world. Chinese and Singaporean culture? or just individuals I am not sure.

The company NEVER had housing, and laugh if we ever mention it. Pilots tried for 5 years to get housing. Now they just offer to you?
Now they saying to you 16 k and they have a housing allowance. haha

ok this how it is now. NO HOUSING, it never considered. salary 16,000+ is what they NEED to pay A330 captain based in Hong Kong, what they actually pay you will be Far less. AND THERE WILL BE NO HOUSING

[oxygenmask]

I didnt change

Sorry , but I didnt change anything. The moderator didnt show my initial post, and then he changed the order with my second one. I wrote one first, but then I realized I was wrong and I wrote another one asking for an apology. I have wrongly used my Currency Converter, its not 16000USD, but 13800 USD/month. My mistake, I am sorry. All I wanted here was to post true facts, so I could get true answers. I know that they are promising us all of this to see if we start the operation. I know that they need us, but I was wondering if it was all true or not. Thats why I came here to ask all of you about It. We have to take a decision soon, and the salary is a very important part for our final decision. I have a good job in the Middle East, I dont want to make a wrong decision and make my family pay for it. My apologies if I wrote a wrong figure. Thanks anyway for your feedback. Happy landings to you all

[b747heavy]

oxygenmask,

If you have a good job and it is treating you well, stay where you are and well away from HKA and their promises. If your wife and kids are happy where you are now, keep it that way. Hong Kong is an intense place and can be demanding on families. Please do some research on schooling and associated costs...this will take a big chunk of your advised $13,800 not to mention housing taking another chunk if you are looking for a bit of space for the wife and kids. A 1200 sq/ft apartment on Lantau Island (Tung Chung) may run you as high as HKD13,000 or more (someone will correct this as I have not been in the rental market for some time now).

You have the right approach in asking for honest opinions and most of this forum is correct in what you can expect. Do your homework for Hong Kong costs then take a deep breath and have a serious think about it all going wrong (most likely) and what that will do for you. I understand the possible attractions that HKA may have for you, but their track history is not good at all and they have burnt a lot of people (and continue to do so) without a care in the world.

Cheers,
Heavy

[mass debator]

I agree with the above posts.

You will not be able to survive on snakes pittance.

Not only that, if your destination forecast is freezing rain with no de-icing fluid avail, Eric the Pig will demand you go there and yell at you, slam the phone in your ear and then run crying to Madam Wu who will then NOT back you up for your safe decision not to go. If you are white, you'll have no chance......these singaporeans are racist. Even if you are 20 years as a commander.....they think they are still better.

Stay away......a few more months in the sand won't hurt. Air China and Korean Air are much better for you.

[captain.diperkosa]

I realize it difficult decision for you, but knowing what these Company like it easy for us to know where your better off.

Just remember many pilot at HKA desperate to try and move to the desert, to get away from these criminals. If the industry becomes growing fast again like 2007 I actually think HKA will park aircrafts. No pilot.

Did you read this Topic The demise of Hong Kong Airlines from the first page? The same management still here. The same snakes that sack all these guy for no reason beside racist reason.

[captain.diperkosa]

Not only that, if your destination forecast is freezing rain with no de-icing fluid avail, Eric the Pig will demand you go there and yell at you, slam the phone in your ear and then run crying to Madam Wu who will then NOT back you up for your safe decision not to go

I am sure many captain dream of this day to happen. if they force you to go. ok do as they say. fly there to destination and park the aircraft and catch taxi to hotel. Cost them many thousands $ and all passengers change to Dragonair never fly HKA again.

Sometimes I think HKA want to lose money. Is it a tax saving for Hainan to lose all these money?

[EXXMAN]

Oxygenmask

Hello,

I can confirm the above posts, Having first hand dealings with this company I can tell you that everything said about them is true. They will lie to you, They will pay you less than promised, They will change the contract after you move yourself and your family here.

Do your self a favour and stay where you are.

If you think it wont happen to you just ask the many pilots before you that said the same thing.

Right now they NEED you so they will promise everything. Once they get what they want they will treat you the same as they have everyone else before you.......

Good luck with your decision....


XOP's ...... The only way to operate...............

[captain.diperkosa]

EXXMAN, my friend told me you promised HKE pilot payrise before 2010. Where is it? If you can not follow up with your promise do not spread false imformations.

GMF it is your job to give some imformations to you pilots that waiting for the news. If you can not follow up on promise get out and give some new GMF a chance to actually give what they promise.

No matter how big the whale is, a tiny harpoon can kill him.

Don't think there are no crocodiles because the water's calm.

[hongkongfooey]

Oxymask, most, if not all of the posters on this thread have moved on to much better jobs, so we are not really bitter, we are trying to help people not make mistakes that we did.

With regards to pay, a colleague of mine was quoted TRI pay when interviewed, when he arrived they did'nt offer TRI until the day he resigned, so his pay was approx. 10% less. Also they told him he would be on the " 777s " withing 18 months, ing liars.
A Dragon F/O ( inc housing ) gets 130-135,000HKD/month, the figure you quoted is 107,000HKD for a widebody Captain, and as mentioned above is probably inflated ( based on 80-85 hrs a month most likely )
Unlike CX/KA, HKA do not pay 13th month, although you will get a chinese new year bonus, it used to be $20 ( not joking ) it would cost you about $30 to go into the office and pick it up.
KA also pay travel fund ( circa 50K/year ) and have access to CX staff travel, you might be able to get Zed fares with HKA but you'll have no priority and getting out of this place on GOOD staff travel is a drama 6 months of the year.
You can live comfortably in Discovery Bay for around 30000HKD/month, a similar size flat in Central will cost you 50,000 and Tung Chung around 15,000.

Medical cover ( very low rent, an average doctor visit will cost you $200 after waiting 2 months for refund ), also we were not told at interview that it did'nt start for 6 months Stuck in Asia with no medical, GREAT

The biggest problem is all the lies they will tell you to get you here, maybe they have got A330s coming, maybe they have'nt ( could be just a back door deal with Hainan wanting A/C outside of their communist government allowance ), you could easily end up on some wet lease arrangement with Hainan in mainland China, then you will really be happy
They have enormous debt ( Hainan and HKA ) and with the arrival of the 330s their debt will exceed their equity by a scary margin, this is why the CAD are hesitant to give them any routes.
Plus, their start up routes are just ing stupid, otherwise CX or someone would have done it years ago.
They have run around with 1/2 empty 737s for years, how long do you reckon they can afford to do that with A330s This is CX town and they ( with the help of CAD ) will make it as difficult as possible ( ask Oasis ).

Oh, and to the best of my knowledge, nobody in HKA managment ( singa swine ) have any Airbus FBW experience, so that should be interesting, your job will not be too secure when one of those idiots puts a smoking hole in the ground with a shiny new 330

All the best Oxy, think very carefully before coming to HKA

[mass debator]

Well written Fooey

Agree with all.

Another aspect of singa HKA culture........

As a captain (god forbid) you will fly with a brown nosing grease dog "TY"(asian pirot) from a certain 3rd world country, who in fact knows more than we will ever know about flying (he is an FO).

He will suggest how you, a captain of thousands of hours, can fly better, and then complain to his lover Madam Wu that you are useless.
From day one, this 2 faced snake's plan is to rat on all the captains so he can get his command. He just doesn't realise he has a very, very low standard.

The sad thing is.....the snakes love this behaviour.

Do you really want to put yourself in this environment?

[thegoon]

Many of the pilots at HKE are looking for other jobs. This is not news, just a fact. If some of the promises made came true that might stop. Management there has no credibility and is not taken seriously. If only something that was said was going to happen actually did, it would help morale to say the least.
Promised pay raise has slipped, no info from management on what is happening. Just say something. Come on HKE "managers", have a little respect for your pilots. You need them there or your jobs will be gone too.

[prettyfly4awhiteguy]

I have been lurking here for a while and here is my 2 cents worth. From the HKE "Express side" Which is who I once worked for, and have many friends still working for.

Yes the managers suck. The job is only good to get the experience to move on to something better.

Positives. Aircraft new and well maintained. Pilots are generally good gents, however as previously written most are in it for themselves. They will all answer their phone and work on their DDO at short notice with no extra pay then complain about roster stability and money. Pay cheque usually arrives on time/ +3 days and has never been more than a week late.

It's a jet job. Get your hours and move on but there are dozens of better companies to get your experience and you will get paid 40% better over the border. Just might need to live in the PRC for a while. But there are some attractive commuting contracts now. You can get out of the country to get your sanity back. A luxury you don’t have at HKAirlines or Express. They will not even roster a regular 4 days off pattern. 2 days off consecutive once in 14 days, that’s it. Living in the PRC is worth doing as the management at HKE is from the PRC or Singaporean anyways. These are two places where a mans word or contract mean nothing. Living in china can be no worse.

Rostering sucks and Mr. Wong doesn’t give a sh1t. He does not have the capacity, time or brains to do it right and he is lazy with the "pilots get paid more than me, so I do nothing to help them or make life more enjoyable syndrome"
A typical roster might stupidly read. (S12 is standby; DDO is day off FLT flying duty)
Pilot 1 - FLT - DDO - S12 - DDO - DDO - S12 - S12 - DDO
Pilot 2 - DDO - FLT - DDO - S12 - S12 - DDO - DDO - FLT
WHY NOT GIVE BOTH PILOTS 4 consecutive days off so they can get out of this sh1Thole?

Pilots are all a bit sick of the non follow through of salary increase promises then change mind with no communication sort of crap. And that's just ops normal there.

It’s not entirely the GMF's fault. He's just a yes man with no pull at all against the Evil Empire. I think he tried in the early days then realized you can not fight and beat the snakes. So he, like all the office staff and managers are happy because they apparently got their pay rises ages ago. But he can’t fight all your battles if your too weak to do anything yourself. No where in his job description does it say he has anything to do with sorting out contractual or salary issues. His job title does however say....
· To ensure safe, efficient and economical operation of company aircraft and effective use of human resources. (So he could do more in the HR side which might include trying to prevent mass resignations by improving the package?)

Only the pilots as a collective body can make change here and that AINT gunna happen. The locals are scared little communist soldiers that dare not step out of line, and the others are just in it for a quick dollar at the expense of terms and conditions for all.

Remember the first contract change? What would have happened if no one signed? Not a thing. You would all be on your original terms and conditions. Remember the second contract change? (Lose your gratuity) What would have happened if you all stuck together as a group and not signed? Nothing. You would all be getting gratuity at full pay. What happened in the pilot meeting at this time? All pilots said "NO we do not sign"! As they smashed their fists on the table. What happened? I remember sitting at Pacific coffee with some HKE pilots the next day watching all these same pilots march off to the office with heads down, signed contract in hand.

The company might have tried to intimidate you all by sacking a few people, but watch them re-hire everyone if you all stick together and refuse to fly unless they are rehired. .............Sorry I had a dream of an ideal world for a second. None of that is going to happen for HKE and it is such a shame because the company had so much potential. Well do as I did and get out as soon as possible.

My advice, come here to Hong Kong and work for HKE or HKA if you have a thick skin and use the company to get your time and get the hell out. But make HKE or HKA your absolute last resort and expect the worst.

[thegoon]

So the HKE managers are back on full pay while the pilots are not. What a shameful group you are. I guess that might remove some incentive to help out the guys on the line now that things are back to normal for you. What a team effort guys. You must be really proud of yourselves to have pulled that one off. Why are your jobs now worth what they were before, but not the jobs of the flight crews?

[hongkongfooey]

Yep, if god was going to stick a giant enema in the aviation world, he would stick it in HKA

[PrettyCroesus]

Oxygenmask,

You should listen to the genuine advise proffered by all these gentlemen. HKA/HKE loves making empty promise. This place run by ' goons and thugs' (Hainan Airlines management). They possess not a trace of ability/intellect/business acumen/ethics!

Stay put where you are or you will regret immensely. Unless you could ask for unpaid leave from your existing employer and experience the torture for half a year

All the best

[new guy]

Evidence of the broken promises

This was a reply sent by madam wu on 2 Nov 2009.
Once again nothing has happened and now we hear there won't be any pay rise because they have found cheap labour somewhere else.
All the posts you read are true and correct, they get what they want, no matter what, with zero regard for their fellow man.


Thank You "John Smith",


for the well-reserched and balanced appeal. Your concerns are noted and the Company WILL consider your recommendations and suggestions.


There is in fact an ongoing review of the COS. We hope to be able to announce some improvements shortly.


Once again, Thank You "John", your passionate yet moderated letter is very much appreciated.


Sincerely
simon wu

[Jamie J]

Runway Incursion

Does anyone have any details of the latest runway incursion at HKG by HKA at the weekend?

Even before this incident it seemed unlikely that the CAD was going to approve the A330 operation/routes. This would be the biggest concern if I was thinking of joining HKA. For the first few years after the 737s arrived at HKA (HKE was the same) new recruits were on reduced pay for more than 6 months because they were never checked to line.

Any new operation will not be able to give good hours to pilots because they need to have the pilots ahead of the aircraft delivery and the routes and rosters are very inefficient until the operation has matured. This means that you will not get many hrs and not much pay since half of the pilots pay is related to duty.

This assumes that the A330 (or is it A320?!) operation will get approval, which I really believe, will not happen.

As I've said before as a pilot thinking of joining, other questions you need to ask yourself are;

1. Do you trust that the contract you sign and the promises you are made, will be honoured?

2. Do you want the bad reputation of this company to be attached to you by having it on your CV? (The latest incident suggests that it is just a matter of time before HKA has a major incident or accident unless the CAD tightens up).