Unilaterally imposed Conditions of Service
Guest
Posts: n/a
Yes I know
Unfortunatley a large company like CX does NOT answer to its employees but its banks, creditors, parent(Swire) etc.. They give us what they want nothing more nothing less. It does no good to let it bother you as this is the way of most large companies. Look again at what is going on in the US. Employees lost everything and now managment is rewarding themselves handsomely. Addtionally, if in tough times CX comes to us and takes away so will other carriers. I am not trying to say that this is right but I just cannot let it affect my life anymore. It is just a job. I have better things to worry and think about and quite frankly the pay is OK, the check is ontime, and my rosters are OK. Imagine having to be on that 3rd floor having to think about all this stuff day to day,Yikes! We really don't have it that bad. EK is NOT a better place to be. Not saying it isn't a good airline it just isn't better than CX.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 3.5 from TD
Age: 47
Posts: 1,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HEy, did any of you guys notice that they changed the HK payscale name to "Asian Pay scale"? Any theories on why they did that? I know it is very subtle, but what might be their reasoning for that?
I can't believe they are actually implementing a paycut in the US. I would have thought that it would at least be equal to current pay. Oh well, I guess they aren't really having problems attracting guys in NA. It is a pretty substantial paycut when you consider that they have lobed off the last 4 YEARS OF THE SFO SCALE!!! And that is where you will be with retirement at 65!!
I can't believe they are actually implementing a paycut in the US. I would have thought that it would at least be equal to current pay. Oh well, I guess they aren't really having problems attracting guys in NA. It is a pretty substantial paycut when you consider that they have lobed off the last 4 YEARS OF THE SFO SCALE!!! And that is where you will be with retirement at 65!!
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Honkers
Posts: 377
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just imagine what awaits us in any future downturn in business
Good point.
A question for you guys...
If we had another big downturn, say another SARS, considering what the management think of us in this pathetic COS08 pay rise, would you take unpaid leave like we did in 2003???
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: hong kong
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pleb88
The moderator got you last time for your foul posts under numerous handles re NC, how long will it take for you to get banned again you POS. Former FAILED AOA leadership whom quit are the lowest form of life. Plenty of folks know who you are and your legal problem is the good old US of A, so when you get tanked and start posting, think twice because you do your reputation no good at all.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good morning Gents,
Everyone just sit back and take a deep breath. No, it is not as bad as you think. For many of us, it is solely an imposed meagre payrise. They haven't imposed a new contract on you, just a payrise. And, the opportunity to stay past 55 on the present pay scale.
Remember, CX cannot impose a new contract on you unless you sign and agree. Yes, the new joiners will join under COS 08.
If you are smart, you will take an objective look around and see if there is something better out there. And if there is, then you will take it. CX will only respond if people choose to leave. However, if you are like many of the people on this forum, you will rant and rave, ......and then do absolutely nothing.
Think for yourself and don't listen to the spin. If you are unhappy leave. You are doing no one any favours by staying, especially yourself. Nuff said!!!
Everyone just sit back and take a deep breath. No, it is not as bad as you think. For many of us, it is solely an imposed meagre payrise. They haven't imposed a new contract on you, just a payrise. And, the opportunity to stay past 55 on the present pay scale.
Remember, CX cannot impose a new contract on you unless you sign and agree. Yes, the new joiners will join under COS 08.
If you are smart, you will take an objective look around and see if there is something better out there. And if there is, then you will take it. CX will only respond if people choose to leave. However, if you are like many of the people on this forum, you will rant and rave, ......and then do absolutely nothing.
Think for yourself and don't listen to the spin. If you are unhappy leave. You are doing no one any favours by staying, especially yourself. Nuff said!!!
Join Date: May 2007
Location: GOC
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So lets get this right, if you feel you must work past 55 and you are not in C&T and you dont want to fly rubber dog #%&@ out of Hong Kong then you have to take a basing, Right!!
Well it seems to me that all of the 27 available slots for CNs in the current round of basings have been oversubscribed.
So if what will happen when guys who fall into the above category reach 55 and apply for a basing only to be told sorry all the slots are gone or there are none available in your home country (port).
Seems like there will be no chance for a basing for most of us for a long time now.
What happened to the pay rise in 2009 (we seem to have lost it completely) and the HDP being provident fundable.
Well it seems to me that all of the 27 available slots for CNs in the current round of basings have been oversubscribed.
So if what will happen when guys who fall into the above category reach 55 and apply for a basing only to be told sorry all the slots are gone or there are none available in your home country (port).
Seems like there will be no chance for a basing for most of us for a long time now.
What happened to the pay rise in 2009 (we seem to have lost it completely) and the HDP being provident fundable.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: usa
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Time to think really hard!!!
As predicted the new terms imposed involve a paltry raise based on OUR fantastic profits etc etc...Certainly stings and makes us all mad...But much wisdom has been thoughfuly posted regarding EK and greener fields...More for the benefit of NA types there is a choice to be made, especially for recent joiners, between CX and say UPS/FEX, recall (AA) (well US air also if you're mad enough and other ex-legacy folk who I'm not readily aware of).
In a sense its a spot of online therapy (pardon the self obsessivness) but I hope it will generate the serious thought needed before/if one leaves CX.
Managment:
CX Excellent at generating PROFITS. Maintains GROWTH and EXPANSION. Clearly keeps costs under control. STRONG. Restricted essentially only by market forces (yawn! but true).
Staffed by Swire types who are well trained and groomed for certain spots/missions.
NA Generally not good at generating profits (hey I'm just looking a the score card not the rules of the game!). REDUCED fleets in many instances and cut expansion plans until very recently (Delta perhaps an exception to the rule). Limited but at times uses devistatingly obtuse powers to enforce conditions due to strong union/legal/federal forces. Staffed by a mix of longtime industry types and "in & out" types looking to raid the store (stock options, parachute clauses etc)
Pay (salary)
CX Not bad and AN INCREASE not a pay cut! Standard with other airlines around the globe and on the pax fleet more than ave legacy carriers (assuming you are not a 10y AA furloughe and Cat U'd at CX). 13 month if in HK. Not able to manipulate roster to increase credit hours at will. PX'ing utilized to avoid overtime.
NA Has increased over last couple of years but still deeply cut due post 9/11 givebacks. UPS & FEX are out on their own (if you can stomach the first year re UPS). Ability to manipulate schedule and thus increase salary (to a point...contract rules etc). Several contracts up for negotiation over next 6 months.
Schedules/Rosters
CX Very little flexiblilty to personally alter days off/trips/overnights/etc. Limited joker days.
No open time or drop trip ability. No bonus for years served (ie seniority). No bidding per se.
Aside the howls of the NA Freighter caps many rosters provide significant days off in a row and vacation block often padded with G days. Little use of crew on A days (watch now I'll get hauled out of bed at 6am next A day and 1000 miles away!!). Dont have to spent three days figuring out your bid!
NA Seniority based so if you're at the bottom enjoy your crashpad/phone going off at 5am on Christmas eve!. With seniority! THERE IS A GOD!
Per Diem
CX CASH IS KING...lets hope when CX goes on shore the Cash won't get counted!
NA 52 bucks a day a month later (plus intl overide in somecases but not much more).
Training/Upgrade
CX Strange place! Graveyard for undesirables (politically & technically speaking). Your are never off probation. Upgrade subject to a combination of ability/politics/who you get! etc.
Captains start at year 1 payscale. ERAS (5 for concept 1 for application)!
NA You pass or you fail S or U...simple! Seniority rules the roost so wait 10 years for a command somewhere (but then go in at year 11 pay!!)..Once off probation generally politics will not affect your sim/line experiences. Less pedantic with proceedures. Focus more on real issues (I feel...)
Lifestyle
CX Oportunity to move to HK and make big bucks as an expat....apt, low tax rate, housing allowance (not to much US tax to pay for off shore), great city (don't inhale though). Not exactly sure how new COS will effect basings but opp to live in home country (and others depending on how onshore stuff works re immigration etc). New A/C, great maintainance, Excellent facilities at CX City! 6 weeks vacation. Great Medical. Schooling. Safe city (crime wise HK).
NA Home is home. Live anywhere and commute JUMPSEAT!!!!!!!!!!!. Clean Air (relative)
Less vacation but easy to bid days off around it to obtain equitable time off.
Job Security
CX Very Good unless you do something or someone wrong
NA Shakey especially if the USA invades (---- fill in the gap) an other 9/11 etc etc etc
Pension
CX 15.5%....ends when you leave...can't be stolen (sorry defaulted is the PC word from the courthouse...my apologies your honor)
NA Gamble as to whether you'll get a good one (A's & B's funds) till you croak or have the lot stolen (oops there I go again...sorry judge)
Union/Future Contracts/Labor law
CX Hence the posting....IMHO its not AOA's fault...HK law is LAW....see what happens when CX goes on shore in the US of A!
NA ALPA (wash your mouth out son!) Teamsters, APA, UPS etc etc....love em or like em its why your granddaddy got sundays off from the pit face. Protected by strong labor laws enforcible in US courts.
Perhaps I'll just wait for the circus to some into town and go visit Mdme Zelda and ask her to gaze into her crystal ball for the right answer. Question is do I brush her palm with a greenback or a redback note?
Real question might be if you had a million dollars or so and didn't have to fly where would you wanna be? hmmmmm!
To all you non NA folks sorry for the splurge but hope it adds somewhat to your thought process.............
In a sense its a spot of online therapy (pardon the self obsessivness) but I hope it will generate the serious thought needed before/if one leaves CX.
Managment:
CX Excellent at generating PROFITS. Maintains GROWTH and EXPANSION. Clearly keeps costs under control. STRONG. Restricted essentially only by market forces (yawn! but true).
Staffed by Swire types who are well trained and groomed for certain spots/missions.
NA Generally not good at generating profits (hey I'm just looking a the score card not the rules of the game!). REDUCED fleets in many instances and cut expansion plans until very recently (Delta perhaps an exception to the rule). Limited but at times uses devistatingly obtuse powers to enforce conditions due to strong union/legal/federal forces. Staffed by a mix of longtime industry types and "in & out" types looking to raid the store (stock options, parachute clauses etc)
Pay (salary)
CX Not bad and AN INCREASE not a pay cut! Standard with other airlines around the globe and on the pax fleet more than ave legacy carriers (assuming you are not a 10y AA furloughe and Cat U'd at CX). 13 month if in HK. Not able to manipulate roster to increase credit hours at will. PX'ing utilized to avoid overtime.
NA Has increased over last couple of years but still deeply cut due post 9/11 givebacks. UPS & FEX are out on their own (if you can stomach the first year re UPS). Ability to manipulate schedule and thus increase salary (to a point...contract rules etc). Several contracts up for negotiation over next 6 months.
Schedules/Rosters
CX Very little flexiblilty to personally alter days off/trips/overnights/etc. Limited joker days.
No open time or drop trip ability. No bonus for years served (ie seniority). No bidding per se.
Aside the howls of the NA Freighter caps many rosters provide significant days off in a row and vacation block often padded with G days. Little use of crew on A days (watch now I'll get hauled out of bed at 6am next A day and 1000 miles away!!). Dont have to spent three days figuring out your bid!
NA Seniority based so if you're at the bottom enjoy your crashpad/phone going off at 5am on Christmas eve!. With seniority! THERE IS A GOD!
Per Diem
CX CASH IS KING...lets hope when CX goes on shore the Cash won't get counted!
NA 52 bucks a day a month later (plus intl overide in somecases but not much more).
Training/Upgrade
CX Strange place! Graveyard for undesirables (politically & technically speaking). Your are never off probation. Upgrade subject to a combination of ability/politics/who you get! etc.
Captains start at year 1 payscale. ERAS (5 for concept 1 for application)!
NA You pass or you fail S or U...simple! Seniority rules the roost so wait 10 years for a command somewhere (but then go in at year 11 pay!!)..Once off probation generally politics will not affect your sim/line experiences. Less pedantic with proceedures. Focus more on real issues (I feel...)
Lifestyle
CX Oportunity to move to HK and make big bucks as an expat....apt, low tax rate, housing allowance (not to much US tax to pay for off shore), great city (don't inhale though). Not exactly sure how new COS will effect basings but opp to live in home country (and others depending on how onshore stuff works re immigration etc). New A/C, great maintainance, Excellent facilities at CX City! 6 weeks vacation. Great Medical. Schooling. Safe city (crime wise HK).
NA Home is home. Live anywhere and commute JUMPSEAT!!!!!!!!!!!. Clean Air (relative)
Less vacation but easy to bid days off around it to obtain equitable time off.
Job Security
CX Very Good unless you do something or someone wrong
NA Shakey especially if the USA invades (---- fill in the gap) an other 9/11 etc etc etc
Pension
CX 15.5%....ends when you leave...can't be stolen (sorry defaulted is the PC word from the courthouse...my apologies your honor)
NA Gamble as to whether you'll get a good one (A's & B's funds) till you croak or have the lot stolen (oops there I go again...sorry judge)
Union/Future Contracts/Labor law
CX Hence the posting....IMHO its not AOA's fault...HK law is LAW....see what happens when CX goes on shore in the US of A!
NA ALPA (wash your mouth out son!) Teamsters, APA, UPS etc etc....love em or like em its why your granddaddy got sundays off from the pit face. Protected by strong labor laws enforcible in US courts.
Perhaps I'll just wait for the circus to some into town and go visit Mdme Zelda and ask her to gaze into her crystal ball for the right answer. Question is do I brush her palm with a greenback or a redback note?
Real question might be if you had a million dollars or so and didn't have to fly where would you wanna be? hmmmmm!
To all you non NA folks sorry for the splurge but hope it adds somewhat to your thought process.............
Join Date: May 2004
Location: 3.5 from TD
Age: 47
Posts: 1,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Real question might be if you had a million dollars or so and didn't have to fly where would you wanna be? hmmmmm!
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Western Hemisphere
Age: 41
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
salary comparison
This is probably for NC... I was wondering if someone could compare three scenarios in terms of total salary (excluding HDP, housing, Provident)...
First (under COS 99) join as an SO for 3 years, then upgrade to FO on a US base for years 4-10 as an FO.
Second (under COS 99) join as a Freighter FO for 3 years, then switch to US Based Pax FO for years 4-10 as an FO.
Third (under COS 08) join as a US based unified FO for years 1-10.
How much will COS 08 reduce salary (or does it)? While the new UFO reduces the passenger scale, normally it would take 3 years to get to Passenger scale (either as an SO or freighter FO). How do years 4-10 of the UFO compare with the current passenger scales?
First (under COS 99) join as an SO for 3 years, then upgrade to FO on a US base for years 4-10 as an FO.
Second (under COS 99) join as a Freighter FO for 3 years, then switch to US Based Pax FO for years 4-10 as an FO.
Third (under COS 08) join as a US based unified FO for years 1-10.
How much will COS 08 reduce salary (or does it)? While the new UFO reduces the passenger scale, normally it would take 3 years to get to Passenger scale (either as an SO or freighter FO). How do years 4-10 of the UFO compare with the current passenger scales?
Last edited by Waterskier; 9th Oct 2007 at 23:09.
Join Date: Oct 1999
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The big thing for me....basings. Age 65 on the base will mean NO command basings available for at least 10 to 15 years, maybe longer, as there are some pretty young guys on the bases. That puts me in HK for my whole career!!!
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 170
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
true
T-Bone, my thoughts exactly. I think this CoS will have two effects. Forget about the money, no oone will leave because of that. The basing issue which i for one will be affected by and the retirement issue for S.Os and junior F.Os.
I love Hong Kong but i had an exit plan (base) in a few years, but alas, no more.
My Yarpie mates who have lots of mates at Emirates, are now looking there as their commands have now been extended by a number of years.
Thank god for options in our industry now.
Whinge all we want guys but nothing will change until we vote with our feet, just ask at Gulf Air!!!
I love Hong Kong but i had an exit plan (base) in a few years, but alas, no more.
My Yarpie mates who have lots of mates at Emirates, are now looking there as their commands have now been extended by a number of years.
Thank god for options in our industry now.
Whinge all we want guys but nothing will change until we vote with our feet, just ask at Gulf Air!!!
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Cal E For Nia
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Second (under COS 99) join as a Freighter FO for 3 years, then switch to US Based Pax FO for years 4-10 as an FO.
Third (under COS 08) join as a US based unified FO for years 1-10.
Third (under COS 08) join as a US based unified FO for years 1-10.
My question is, can someone who is currently on the freighter scale jump over to the UFO scale and fly pax immediately? In the short run, this would provide significant benefit to my roster. But, after the 3.5 year mark, I would be stuck with freighter flying and would not have the beautiful NA pax only roster that exists now. However, if you are a stickler for diversity in flying, the UFO option could make things a bit more interesting.
SikeMo
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Earth
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why?.....Why? Why? Why?
What I'd really like to know is why the company went ahead and did this.
I thought 1992 had passed already.
Maybe they're tired of seeing all those EK aircraft parked in the desert.
I thought 1992 had passed already.
Maybe they're tired of seeing all those EK aircraft parked in the desert.
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
some answers
bobrun,
my understanding is that anyone going on a base from next year will be on CoS08 - well, once on-shoring for each base occurs. I think UK is first in Apr08.
slapfaan
We asked for in excess of 30+%. Sounds like a lot until you realise that it was to cover from Jul01-Jul10. It worked out to be about 3% a year. A lion may roar and growl, but the ringmaster has the chair and whip.
waterskier
I am not sure of your situation but the 3 choices you suggested are not possible for one person. You are either on CoS99 or CoS08.
If you are on a base now you can stay on CoS99 or move onto CoS08. If you are in HKG now you will have to go onto CoS08 to get a base in future. If you are joining CX after 1/1/08 you will be on the new improved CoS!
Option 2 pays the most and is about 2.4%(nominal, not NPV) better than option 3. Option 1 was less 3 by 5% or so.
QF and CX have similar command times now. QF pays more over a career vs HKG based or Aus based pilots. EK has command time a decade faster than CX/QF. An EK career will have you around 30% better off, after tax, over 10 years. QF earnings will be over 24.6% higher than CX equivalent after 10 years...actually it will be higher than that as you will have to take UFO08 Aus based salary in future and I haven't got the lastest QF EBA figures.
If you want command - look at EK. If you want money look at QF or EK. If you want industrial protection (compared to EK/CX) join QF. If you love zoological maths "RA65 will ACCELERATE your time to command" then join CX.
Caveat Emptor!
my understanding is that anyone going on a base from next year will be on CoS08 - well, once on-shoring for each base occurs. I think UK is first in Apr08.
slapfaan
We asked for in excess of 30+%. Sounds like a lot until you realise that it was to cover from Jul01-Jul10. It worked out to be about 3% a year. A lion may roar and growl, but the ringmaster has the chair and whip.
waterskier
I am not sure of your situation but the 3 choices you suggested are not possible for one person. You are either on CoS99 or CoS08.
If you are on a base now you can stay on CoS99 or move onto CoS08. If you are in HKG now you will have to go onto CoS08 to get a base in future. If you are joining CX after 1/1/08 you will be on the new improved CoS!
Option 2 pays the most and is about 2.4%(nominal, not NPV) better than option 3. Option 1 was less 3 by 5% or so.
QF and CX have similar command times now. QF pays more over a career vs HKG based or Aus based pilots. EK has command time a decade faster than CX/QF. An EK career will have you around 30% better off, after tax, over 10 years. QF earnings will be over 24.6% higher than CX equivalent after 10 years...actually it will be higher than that as you will have to take UFO08 Aus based salary in future and I haven't got the lastest QF EBA figures.
If you want command - look at EK. If you want money look at QF or EK. If you want industrial protection (compared to EK/CX) join QF. If you love zoological maths "RA65 will ACCELERATE your time to command" then join CX.
Caveat Emptor!
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Straight outta Compton
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's fairly easy to read the writting on the wall as to what is going to happen to the availability of basings for captains with the new CoS but is this going to have a negative impact on the availability of FO vacancies as well?
My fear is that with RA65 a lot of F/O's who've been sticking it out in Hong Kong waiting for their command will now have their command delayed so significantly that they'll just say "screw it" & flock to the bases. Couple that with the fact that CX will be hiring DEFO's onto the pax fleet and the fact that new DEFO joiners will have to remain on a base for 4 years before transferring to Hong Kong and I think we may see zero base vacancies for any rank in the near future.
Anyone care to disagree with me?
My fear is that with RA65 a lot of F/O's who've been sticking it out in Hong Kong waiting for their command will now have their command delayed so significantly that they'll just say "screw it" & flock to the bases. Couple that with the fact that CX will be hiring DEFO's onto the pax fleet and the fact that new DEFO joiners will have to remain on a base for 4 years before transferring to Hong Kong and I think we may see zero base vacancies for any rank in the near future.
Anyone care to disagree with me?
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 651
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pleb 88
"1. The President should not be involved with negotiations. Failed.
2. Have a mandate and keep the GC informed or they might not support your deal. Failed.
3. Have credibility. Don't include those who lack judgment
4. Do have a lever and use it or else you will get cornered into what they want...CoS08. Failed.
5. Don't give rostering productivity (RP07) on the promise of talks on a payrise. You'll end up giving the productivity (RP07) and get just that ... "talks" on a payrise. Failed.
But most importantly; don't ever give up on fellow negotiators, Committee and 49er types who supported the cause and were unfairly terminated by management for it. You did, and as a result, you will be forever plagued by the inept and weak as your HKAOA leaders."
Interesting!
The previous 4 AOA presidents also failed rule 1.
Rule 2, from personal observation, this negotiation was run exactly like 2001 - from a negotiators/GC persepective so Nigel 'failed' too!
Rule 3. Well 4 out of 7 negotiators were fired in 2001 - one in particular was infamous for going sick every xmas/Rugby 7s and whenever else the whim took him. So I guess Nigel 'failed' again for allowing him to be a negotiator!
Rule 4. We had a lever in 1999 and 2001 and we ended up getting almost EXACTLY what the company wanted to give us! We had no lever in 2007.
Rule 5. We did not offer any productivity in 2007 or in RP07. Simple maths (yet again). Under 5-4-3 you can achieve almost 3.5 ULH patterns a month - that equates to 3.5*25=87.5hrs a month - so the 900hrs a year target is easily achieveable. On the bus, and soon the 777, the mix of ULH and short haul will ensure that 3 or 4 days off would have been given between long haul and regional flying. So please, without hyperbole, explain the productivity that we 'gave up' in RP07 or negs07??????
As to your last point, I have worked with 3 AOA presidents and numerous other AOA 'leaders'. Two types of people are attracted to positions of influence....those wanting the kudos and those that are selfless and charitable. ST is one of the most honest, selfless people I have ever met. ND had a personal axe to grind, ST does not. I trust ST implicitly although I often disagree with him - but then thats democracy for you.
"1. The President should not be involved with negotiations. Failed.
2. Have a mandate and keep the GC informed or they might not support your deal. Failed.
3. Have credibility. Don't include those who lack judgment
4. Do have a lever and use it or else you will get cornered into what they want...CoS08. Failed.
5. Don't give rostering productivity (RP07) on the promise of talks on a payrise. You'll end up giving the productivity (RP07) and get just that ... "talks" on a payrise. Failed.
But most importantly; don't ever give up on fellow negotiators, Committee and 49er types who supported the cause and were unfairly terminated by management for it. You did, and as a result, you will be forever plagued by the inept and weak as your HKAOA leaders."
Interesting!
The previous 4 AOA presidents also failed rule 1.
Rule 2, from personal observation, this negotiation was run exactly like 2001 - from a negotiators/GC persepective so Nigel 'failed' too!
Rule 3. Well 4 out of 7 negotiators were fired in 2001 - one in particular was infamous for going sick every xmas/Rugby 7s and whenever else the whim took him. So I guess Nigel 'failed' again for allowing him to be a negotiator!
Rule 4. We had a lever in 1999 and 2001 and we ended up getting almost EXACTLY what the company wanted to give us! We had no lever in 2007.
Rule 5. We did not offer any productivity in 2007 or in RP07. Simple maths (yet again). Under 5-4-3 you can achieve almost 3.5 ULH patterns a month - that equates to 3.5*25=87.5hrs a month - so the 900hrs a year target is easily achieveable. On the bus, and soon the 777, the mix of ULH and short haul will ensure that 3 or 4 days off would have been given between long haul and regional flying. So please, without hyperbole, explain the productivity that we 'gave up' in RP07 or negs07??????
As to your last point, I have worked with 3 AOA presidents and numerous other AOA 'leaders'. Two types of people are attracted to positions of influence....those wanting the kudos and those that are selfless and charitable. ST is one of the most honest, selfless people I have ever met. ND had a personal axe to grind, ST does not. I trust ST implicitly although I often disagree with him - but then thats democracy for you.