Resignations at KA
The Management
Me thinks ye hath lost the plot.
I can assure you that Tony is well aware of the dire straits that KA is now in.
Richard has carte blanche to protect the franchise. Expect some positive developments for without them the franchise is worthless.
Me thinks ye hath lost the plot.
I can assure you that Tony is well aware of the dire straits that KA is now in.
Richard has carte blanche to protect the franchise. Expect some positive developments for without them the franchise is worthless.
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Money
Mr M, I used to like your posts but now you're getting irritating you'll be pleased to know. Unless more money is involved then the KA meltdown will continue. Then let's see who loses money.
KA is only a short step ahead of CX so they'd better use it as a learning opportunity.
KA is only a short step ahead of CX so they'd better use it as a learning opportunity.
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The Management
Sir, I do believe you have a very small winkie!
Young man, a little word of advice “Never under estimate the will of The Management of The Cathay Pacific Group”. You have been warned.
Last edited by bazbogan; 7th Nov 2007 at 14:59.
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Time will tell what our strategy will be.
2)...........?????????
Look The Management. We want to help. The demise of our GMO was rather vicious in a corporate sense. It is a lonely place when pilot attrition is apportioned to your watch. But 12% in six months is a basket case. He had to go. Thatcherite management practices are untenable.
If KA pilots keep leaving. And they will as pathfinders are already reporting back. It could be you who is uncermoniously dumped.
Two KA aircraft are parked. We want to help.
It could be you next. The Board is watching.
Last edited by And Then; 8th Nov 2007 at 01:35.
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I can only sit back and laugh in disbelief. Management had been warned repeatedly of the problems facing the crews, yet they chose not to act. What was needed back then were some simple rostering rules and benefits that were, and are, the norm for an expat, as well as a little pay rise. Rather than improve the terms and conditions they let the HR dept loose on them and cut them so as to make KA less attractive. They did this so well that it is even unattractive to locals and ex-cadets.
So what is needed now? I would suggest that anything less than CX parity in salary, housing, education and other benefits might be too little too late. A rostering agreement is also essential. And discussions need to be held sooner rather than later on CX/KA crew integration. After all we don't want another ASL/VETA/CX Freighters fiasco.
As for The Management, thanks for the heads up on your possible plans. Let me repay the favour. In 1989 almost the entire pilot workforce of Australia fought for better terms and conditions. They didn't win. But neither did the Airlines. Of the 4 airlines involved none exist today, yet the majority of pilots, if not retired, are still flying.
CX was close to a similar situation in 2000. Then you fired 52 employees. That was smart - but look at the skeletons that came out of the closet and the issues that continue to affect, and cost you, even today. Try it again and you never know what things will surface. So my advice is not to try it again. The sores are still there and if you scratch too hard they will start bleeding.
In closing, I don't begrudge you your bonus. In fact we should all get one. But having dozens of planes on the ground is a sure way to reduce your bonus, possibly even your position.
Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
So what is needed now? I would suggest that anything less than CX parity in salary, housing, education and other benefits might be too little too late. A rostering agreement is also essential. And discussions need to be held sooner rather than later on CX/KA crew integration. After all we don't want another ASL/VETA/CX Freighters fiasco.
As for The Management, thanks for the heads up on your possible plans. Let me repay the favour. In 1989 almost the entire pilot workforce of Australia fought for better terms and conditions. They didn't win. But neither did the Airlines. Of the 4 airlines involved none exist today, yet the majority of pilots, if not retired, are still flying.
CX was close to a similar situation in 2000. Then you fired 52 employees. That was smart - but look at the skeletons that came out of the closet and the issues that continue to affect, and cost you, even today. Try it again and you never know what things will surface. So my advice is not to try it again. The sores are still there and if you scratch too hard they will start bleeding.
In closing, I don't begrudge you your bonus. In fact we should all get one. But having dozens of planes on the ground is a sure way to reduce your bonus, possibly even your position.
Cheers
Drunkenair (hic)
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Here's a challenge for NUMERO:
Try and calculate the damage done to KA by this current situation.
Quite a challenge to put in $$ the cost of goodwill, contract compliance, retraining/re-hiring, payouts, public image - loss of sales, cancelled flights etc etc.
Try and calculate the damage done to KA by this current situation.
Quite a challenge to put in $$ the cost of goodwill, contract compliance, retraining/re-hiring, payouts, public image - loss of sales, cancelled flights etc etc.
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Drunken Air
I would add that intimidation of the pilot workforce is more applicable to our CX bretheren. In the case of KA pilots, it is an obsolete management concept which would be quite difficult in application.
Why ? Financial and professional manoeuvrability. With undertones of apathy and disinterest: KA is a crap job, no future prospects and I can walk very quickly and easily in the present environment of a near zero pilot jobless rate.
I would add that intimidation of the pilot workforce is more applicable to our CX bretheren. In the case of KA pilots, it is an obsolete management concept which would be quite difficult in application.
Why ? Financial and professional manoeuvrability. With undertones of apathy and disinterest: KA is a crap job, no future prospects and I can walk very quickly and easily in the present environment of a near zero pilot jobless rate.
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dreaming again ??
Are you too stupid to realise the disadvantage of having a lower professional cost base in your midst ?
KA will be offered multiples of your 3%. And they will still leave. Why ? Because they can.
And you ? Miserable and insecure. Take the 3%.
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Are you too stupid to realise the disadvantage of having a lower professional cost base in your midst ?
er, "andthen" what is it about Cathay's multiple pay scales that no-one told you ???? Swire will compare you with "American Eagle, or some other Feeder carrier and disclaim any comparison with other airlines just as they say "UPS, Fedex is not our competition in the freight market, and we pay based on what we think the US carriers would pay if they thought they could get away with it..................
yes you'll get a multiple of 3%...........like times one ..er ....= 3%
er, "andthen" what is it about Cathay's multiple pay scales that no-one told you ???? Swire will compare you with "American Eagle, or some other Feeder carrier and disclaim any comparison with other airlines just as they say "UPS, Fedex is not our competition in the freight market, and we pay based on what we think the US carriers would pay if they thought they could get away with it..................
yes you'll get a multiple of 3%...........like times one ..er ....= 3%
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Sizematters
I dont think you quite get it - no-one gives a sh1t anymore, 30% probably would'nt do it. People are walking and will continue to do so - its not just the money anymore. We are fed up with the lifestyle or lack of it.
Bully-boy tactics will just make it happen even faster.
welcome back onboard !
I dont think you quite get it - no-one gives a sh1t anymore, 30% probably would'nt do it. People are walking and will continue to do so - its not just the money anymore. We are fed up with the lifestyle or lack of it.
Bully-boy tactics will just make it happen even faster.
welcome back onboard !
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American eagle arent flying 3 class 330s either.
Funny how that arguement only works 1 way. Why arent we using that same arguement for our freighter fleets? What does UPS and Fedex pay?
They guys are leaving for many reasons. The truth is 12% payrise would not have stopped any of them leaving. This is not a money fix. The only ones stupid enough to believe that are across the road. The only thing the money will fix is that the new hires might start turning up.
People are leaving for many other reasons. Some (senior FOs) because there is no future growth planned for KA. Tony and Nicks letter made that very clear. We may pick up another mainland destination or 2, but who would stay for that? We are under no illusions though, no one joined KA for the exotic destinations. There is no fleet progression, the disasterous HKRO saw to that. What must that have cost them??? Whats the bet most of them would have stayed if they could progress on to the 400 if they could stay on the agreed HKG package? You would have been killed in the rush to get on it. Also they left for lifestyle issues like no rostering stability, even when there were no aircraft on order they couldnt get the crewing numbers right. Does anyone still think there will be 20 commands next year? That might cover the guys going to CCA.
In short, Kenny had to clean the place out, the managers at all levels had been caught lying to him so many times. "Sure Kenny, we can crew the new destinations." "Sure Kenny, the freighter will be crewed and ready for the christmas increased schedule." "Dont worry Kenny, CC only affects a few trouble makers. We have it all under control". "Dont worry Kenny, its only a hollow threat, none of them will leave." "I was misquoted, I never told them if they dont like it to leave." and from leave dept, "We have a new leave allocation system we found at download.com that will improve the leave management, the crew will love it!" "No Kenny, its normal for half the fleet to be terminating before 8pm. Nothing to do with lack of crew, there may be a few troublemakers on sick leave, but they will be dealt with. Our passengers just dont like to fly at night."
Who can the poor bloke trust? Selling softdrinks would never have been this much fun!
Funny how that arguement only works 1 way. Why arent we using that same arguement for our freighter fleets? What does UPS and Fedex pay?
They guys are leaving for many reasons. The truth is 12% payrise would not have stopped any of them leaving. This is not a money fix. The only ones stupid enough to believe that are across the road. The only thing the money will fix is that the new hires might start turning up.
People are leaving for many other reasons. Some (senior FOs) because there is no future growth planned for KA. Tony and Nicks letter made that very clear. We may pick up another mainland destination or 2, but who would stay for that? We are under no illusions though, no one joined KA for the exotic destinations. There is no fleet progression, the disasterous HKRO saw to that. What must that have cost them??? Whats the bet most of them would have stayed if they could progress on to the 400 if they could stay on the agreed HKG package? You would have been killed in the rush to get on it. Also they left for lifestyle issues like no rostering stability, even when there were no aircraft on order they couldnt get the crewing numbers right. Does anyone still think there will be 20 commands next year? That might cover the guys going to CCA.
In short, Kenny had to clean the place out, the managers at all levels had been caught lying to him so many times. "Sure Kenny, we can crew the new destinations." "Sure Kenny, the freighter will be crewed and ready for the christmas increased schedule." "Dont worry Kenny, CC only affects a few trouble makers. We have it all under control". "Dont worry Kenny, its only a hollow threat, none of them will leave." "I was misquoted, I never told them if they dont like it to leave." and from leave dept, "We have a new leave allocation system we found at download.com that will improve the leave management, the crew will love it!" "No Kenny, its normal for half the fleet to be terminating before 8pm. Nothing to do with lack of crew, there may be a few troublemakers on sick leave, but they will be dealt with. Our passengers just dont like to fly at night."
Who can the poor bloke trust? Selling softdrinks would never have been this much fun!
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Lowkoon
I agree that the first wave of attrition ( 12%) could not be a attributed to financial factors alone.
But the next wave(s) will. If pay isn't addressed shortly it will be fair indication of what the future holds.
Rostering will take a long time to fix. Money talks in the meantime!!
I agree that the first wave of attrition ( 12%) could not be a attributed to financial factors alone.
But the next wave(s) will. If pay isn't addressed shortly it will be fair indication of what the future holds.
Rostering will take a long time to fix. Money talks in the meantime!!
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"This is not a money fix|"
Strangely... this seems to be the view coming out of the big house across the road. What, if any, are the KA driver's initial thoughts on RH parachuting into KA house?
Whilst I don't imagine RH has a pot of gold in his nav bag; what things would you like to see. Some suggestions being mentioned around the campfire are a "CX styled" Roster Practices Agreement; the "prospect" of Integration with the CX Seniority List giving the "prospect" of Basings and commuter rosters. I use the word "prospect" because KA pilots going on CX bases in the near future doesn't solve KA's immediate crewing problems....... it makes it worse!
Having met RH a few times, one thing you will get is a measured and polite style of Management. I am sure he will give you the impression, at least, that you are being listened to and respected. Time will only tell how much power the CX Board has devolved to him to make meaningful changes.
So, assume RH reads these pages, what changes would you suggest?....
Strangely... this seems to be the view coming out of the big house across the road. What, if any, are the KA driver's initial thoughts on RH parachuting into KA house?
Whilst I don't imagine RH has a pot of gold in his nav bag; what things would you like to see. Some suggestions being mentioned around the campfire are a "CX styled" Roster Practices Agreement; the "prospect" of Integration with the CX Seniority List giving the "prospect" of Basings and commuter rosters. I use the word "prospect" because KA pilots going on CX bases in the near future doesn't solve KA's immediate crewing problems....... it makes it worse!
Having met RH a few times, one thing you will get is a measured and polite style of Management. I am sure he will give you the impression, at least, that you are being listened to and respected. Time will only tell how much power the CX Board has devolved to him to make meaningful changes.
So, assume RH reads these pages, what changes would you suggest?....
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Guys will continue to leave and guys will continue failing to show. One recent Airbus course had one of four new joiners turn up !
Money is a very big factor. Especially with command prospects slowing. A KA FO wage is tough going and an unattractive prospect for the medium to long term.
I would like to help.
Could I please have J class travel on CX.
Money is a very big factor. Especially with command prospects slowing. A KA FO wage is tough going and an unattractive prospect for the medium to long term.
I would like to help.
Could I please have J class travel on CX.
1. Rostering
2. The constant attacks from personnel to make our lives more difficult.
3. Rostering
4. Rostering
5. I think you get the idea.
Have to agree with the above, I think it is almost too far gone.
The next "wave" about to begin, including Captains checked to the line less than twelve months.
Surely that indicates the depth of the problem!!
Oz2
2. The constant attacks from personnel to make our lives more difficult.
3. Rostering
4. Rostering
5. I think you get the idea.
Have to agree with the above, I think it is almost too far gone.
The next "wave" about to begin, including Captains checked to the line less than twelve months.
Surely that indicates the depth of the problem!!
Oz2
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Basings.
Expatriates are beginning to comprehend that you can't raise children in the toxic cesspool that HK has now become, for many/most it already doesn't or soon won't matter how much you pay.
KA pilots are only leaving sooner than CX crew because their lifestyle is far worse, rosters appalling, divorces skyrocketing, flying stressful, management 1950's RAF-style, inadequate hotel accommodation and the salaries lower. The recent edict from CX that KA pilots will forever be condemned to fly regionally has also accelerated the desire of many to escape.
Immediate parity with CX pay scales may provide temporary relief but I suspect CX will also face the same issues of staff attrition too, should it not expand its own basings availability. Environmental issues are becoming paramount.
Pilots need to be able to do 7-9 days on and identical days off with confirmed J/F travel to/from a CX destination, the same will need also to apply to CX crew. There will also need to be some form of currency protection.
Inconceiveable now? It's not a 'big-ticket' item and will in all likelihood be the key to corporate success or failure.
Expatriates are beginning to comprehend that you can't raise children in the toxic cesspool that HK has now become, for many/most it already doesn't or soon won't matter how much you pay.
KA pilots are only leaving sooner than CX crew because their lifestyle is far worse, rosters appalling, divorces skyrocketing, flying stressful, management 1950's RAF-style, inadequate hotel accommodation and the salaries lower. The recent edict from CX that KA pilots will forever be condemned to fly regionally has also accelerated the desire of many to escape.
Immediate parity with CX pay scales may provide temporary relief but I suspect CX will also face the same issues of staff attrition too, should it not expand its own basings availability. Environmental issues are becoming paramount.
Pilots need to be able to do 7-9 days on and identical days off with confirmed J/F travel to/from a CX destination, the same will need also to apply to CX crew. There will also need to be some form of currency protection.
Inconceiveable now? It's not a 'big-ticket' item and will in all likelihood be the key to corporate success or failure.