Joining Dragonair? This is how it is now
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scubes - right choice - steer clear of dragon
Without a shadow of doubt scubes youve made the right choice to steer clear of KA. You'll never do a 14hour commute to work on a dragonair aircraft. By the time youve been dicked around in amsterdam and dubai youll have been sat stewing in your seat for at least 24hours. You can then look forward to doing it all again in the reverse direction after a week of flogging up and down the east coast of china at 3am.
Join Date: Jun 2007
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Reality Check!
Fly 747 wrote:
"You need health care cos they aint got the NHS."
-so...is that bad or good? It seems to me private is better. Always has been.
"You need the school allowance cos your kids aint cantonese so wouldn't do too well in the local school."
-you don't want your kids in a cantonese school. I live in an Asian Country, and even the wealthy Asians who can afford the private schools that KA is paying for send their kids there. My Chinese Cousins go to the American private school. With the local attitudes about schools and competition the local kids go to school up to 16 hours a day. Most emphasis is placed upon memorization and little on social skills and teamwork or team sports. Why do you think Asian kids do so well in Western schools Academically but generally fall down when it comes to teamwork or social skills....So..whats your point 747??? You want to put your kids in a local school?? Most companies around the world don't pay for your kids school either!
"You need the travel fund cos your wife aint hanging around in the heat and smog."
Ya...Los Angeles is much better. Clean Air and cheap electricity ...and drink the water from the tap! Reality Check man....
"You need accomodation allowance cos its very expensive to rent. Yes you can use it to buy but those are the famous golden handcuffs. Property goes down as well as up in HKG you know."
-Jeez...I don't know what to say to you...my company doesnt give me a housing allowance. I have to pay for my house out of my own pocket. Plus my tax rate is about 50%. So why don't you add your house allowance to your salary...that would equate with most people who work at other locals around the world.
"As sidesteppa intimates you won't be smiling quite so much when you get your tax bill cos you aint gonna like it"
-Being that Hong Kong is 15% I believe?? Maybe you think that sucks ... but dude....its alot better than Europe or N.America.
"You need health care cos they aint got the NHS."
-so...is that bad or good? It seems to me private is better. Always has been.
"You need the school allowance cos your kids aint cantonese so wouldn't do too well in the local school."
-you don't want your kids in a cantonese school. I live in an Asian Country, and even the wealthy Asians who can afford the private schools that KA is paying for send their kids there. My Chinese Cousins go to the American private school. With the local attitudes about schools and competition the local kids go to school up to 16 hours a day. Most emphasis is placed upon memorization and little on social skills and teamwork or team sports. Why do you think Asian kids do so well in Western schools Academically but generally fall down when it comes to teamwork or social skills....So..whats your point 747??? You want to put your kids in a local school?? Most companies around the world don't pay for your kids school either!
"You need the travel fund cos your wife aint hanging around in the heat and smog."
Ya...Los Angeles is much better. Clean Air and cheap electricity ...and drink the water from the tap! Reality Check man....
"You need accomodation allowance cos its very expensive to rent. Yes you can use it to buy but those are the famous golden handcuffs. Property goes down as well as up in HKG you know."
-Jeez...I don't know what to say to you...my company doesnt give me a housing allowance. I have to pay for my house out of my own pocket. Plus my tax rate is about 50%. So why don't you add your house allowance to your salary...that would equate with most people who work at other locals around the world.
"As sidesteppa intimates you won't be smiling quite so much when you get your tax bill cos you aint gonna like it"
-Being that Hong Kong is 15% I believe?? Maybe you think that sucks ... but dude....its alot better than Europe or N.America.
Last edited by 555orange; 13th Jul 2007 at 11:43. Reason: edited
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I would rather be treated in an NHS hospital than the private hospitals in HK, and I've seen a fair bit of both so private medical plan is simply necessary, certainly not a bonus. In fact, if you work for CX then you also need to buy your own gap insurance for spouse and children as the cover Cx offer is inadequate and could leave you with a big medical bill should a problem arise for a dependent.(I don't know if the same is true for KA, but it probably will be soon!)
In your home country private education is a luxury item, in HK it is essential (with a very few exceptions). As such, it certainly isn't a bonus of being an expat. In fact I see it as what we'd call a "stealth tax" in the UK. The company pays either 50% or 75% of basic school costs depending on your children's age. You are taxed on the amount they pay you and you have to top up the costs out of your own pocket.
I have a few friends who live in LA and their family choose to stay there for the summer. I have many friends who live in HK and most of their families choose to go home for the summer if they can. This is a very expensive pastime. Either they still have a house at home that they can use so they're paying an extra mortgage over and above accomodation costs of living in HK throughout the year, or they don't, in which case they have to find somewhere to stay. This is not cheap, particularly in Europe in the summer.
The basic tax rate is about 16% in HK, but once you add on the "stealth taxes", by which I mean the additional costs involved with being an expat, the real cost is very similar. In fact, a fairly extreme example is a friend of mine who had to move back to the UK about 6 months ago simply because he could no longer afford to live in HK. His multiple children now enjoy free schooling and he's paid in stirling so he can afford to pay his mortgage again.
There are benefits to living in HK, but getting rich is not one of them any more!
In your home country private education is a luxury item, in HK it is essential (with a very few exceptions). As such, it certainly isn't a bonus of being an expat. In fact I see it as what we'd call a "stealth tax" in the UK. The company pays either 50% or 75% of basic school costs depending on your children's age. You are taxed on the amount they pay you and you have to top up the costs out of your own pocket.
I have a few friends who live in LA and their family choose to stay there for the summer. I have many friends who live in HK and most of their families choose to go home for the summer if they can. This is a very expensive pastime. Either they still have a house at home that they can use so they're paying an extra mortgage over and above accomodation costs of living in HK throughout the year, or they don't, in which case they have to find somewhere to stay. This is not cheap, particularly in Europe in the summer.
The basic tax rate is about 16% in HK, but once you add on the "stealth taxes", by which I mean the additional costs involved with being an expat, the real cost is very similar. In fact, a fairly extreme example is a friend of mine who had to move back to the UK about 6 months ago simply because he could no longer afford to live in HK. His multiple children now enjoy free schooling and he's paid in stirling so he can afford to pay his mortgage again.
There are benefits to living in HK, but getting rich is not one of them any more!
Last edited by Loopdeloop; 13th Jul 2007 at 17:12.
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Great reply. Finally someone who comes to the table with the real goods. Instead this Pprune thing seems to really have too much of sarcasm and negativity, or people who think they are really funny and clever in their comments but are really not. I like the points you put forward. They make sense. So I guess it really comes down to the fact that maybe you can make some money in HKG if your single and you get on the house allowance at the right time before a big value increases. Of course that would be the same as anywhere. I did pretty well with my house back in N America the last 5 years. And its pretty expensive for education in the US....and really expensive if your kids are in sports. In Canada education is cheap if you dont mind your kids in public schools...and to have them play sports is a bit cheaper to. Point is, you pay it all out of your salary. There is NO education allowance, and NO housing allowance. I would love it if my company gave that too me..I would be glad to pay the tax on it!! Really...what a benefit...for a company to give you 8-9k USD to pay your mortgage after a salary of about 100k/year?? Plus only taxed at 16%? I have a great salary in N America at about 90k us/year, and about 40 is taken away by the govt for tax. That leaves me with about 4-5k/mo for disposable. Take out 3000 for your house, 800 for cars, 1000 for misc groceries/bills/etc and you have absolutely nothing left. My wife and I have to watch our pennies every month so we don't spend a dollar more than we make. We save nothing. So forgive me for looking at the deal my friends are always happy to brag about over at Cathay and Dragon...and it looks pretty damn good from where I sit! Any comments???
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Dragonair doesn't like North Americans. With the collapsing American dollar this will change as they fail to attract Europeans and their source of traditional cheap labour: Australians and Kiwis.
Actually, with more local pilots deserting on the cards Dragon is in unchartered waters. What does the GMO think of South Americans?
And then there is a pay cut on the table delivered in a beligerent manner. Seven resignations for the last month. What are Eastern Europeans like?
Actually, with more local pilots deserting on the cards Dragon is in unchartered waters. What does the GMO think of South Americans?
And then there is a pay cut on the table delivered in a beligerent manner. Seven resignations for the last month. What are Eastern Europeans like?
Join Date: Nov 2005
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Dragon and CX will have to go the way of China Airlines if they don't want to pay up - that is hire Eastern European and South American guys - who by the way are generally excellent guys. That doesn't take away from the fact that they are truly screwing up the market by being willing to work for so much less....
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Orange555, thanks for dropping by and telling us how it is in "The States". We appreciate it. The comparison with a completely different company and aircraft on a completely different route structure in a completely different country, and under completely different economic conditions in a completely different work environment has been extremely helpful. We feel suitably chastised.
The logic of "we do it cheaper, so you need a reality check" has a lot of merit for those willing to lead in the race to the bottom. Im sure the boys in Bangladesh think the same about you and your conditions. Where do you want to draw the line? Good luck in the race. As you Americans say, the KA boys are "ROOTING" for you!
Can we please compare apples with apples? The post is about how it is at KA, it may just make some sense to listen to the boys who are there dont you think?
PS, feel free to apply, or do you feel the package isnt good enough to compensate you for dragging you away from your country of birth and your friends and family and dumping you in one of the most polluted environments on earth?
The logic of "we do it cheaper, so you need a reality check" has a lot of merit for those willing to lead in the race to the bottom. Im sure the boys in Bangladesh think the same about you and your conditions. Where do you want to draw the line? Good luck in the race. As you Americans say, the KA boys are "ROOTING" for you!
Can we please compare apples with apples? The post is about how it is at KA, it may just make some sense to listen to the boys who are there dont you think?
PS, feel free to apply, or do you feel the package isnt good enough to compensate you for dragging you away from your country of birth and your friends and family and dumping you in one of the most polluted environments on earth?
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Quoting Lowkoon :
" PS, feel free to apply, or do you feel the package isnt good enough to compensate you for dragging you away from your country of birth and your friends and family and dumping you in one of the most polluted environments on earth?"
Ever heard of the term "hardship post" ... well that was what xpat flying was in Asia and Mideast in the past. Those were the days when you couldn't buy bread or milk in Hong Kong (yes dairy is not part of a chinese diet - neither is baking ) As for the flying - it was harder too due to these parts of the world being less developed at the time.
That's why Cathay and most others paid massive salaries.
Now those days are over and management don't consider you having to leave your home coutry and moving to one of the most polluted environments away from everything you hold dear as a " hardship". The opposite actually - you should be gratefull they even offer you some work - its only due to the fact that they don't have enough local cadets to fill the slots yet.
As a parallel: Dubai is the same now. When they needed expats to develop the place the reward was there - these days foreigners catually WANT to go there so the Emirati attitude is essentialy that if you really want to come to their great country its going to cost you....
" PS, feel free to apply, or do you feel the package isnt good enough to compensate you for dragging you away from your country of birth and your friends and family and dumping you in one of the most polluted environments on earth?"
Ever heard of the term "hardship post" ... well that was what xpat flying was in Asia and Mideast in the past. Those were the days when you couldn't buy bread or milk in Hong Kong (yes dairy is not part of a chinese diet - neither is baking ) As for the flying - it was harder too due to these parts of the world being less developed at the time.
That's why Cathay and most others paid massive salaries.
Now those days are over and management don't consider you having to leave your home coutry and moving to one of the most polluted environments away from everything you hold dear as a " hardship". The opposite actually - you should be gratefull they even offer you some work - its only due to the fact that they don't have enough local cadets to fill the slots yet.
As a parallel: Dubai is the same now. When they needed expats to develop the place the reward was there - these days foreigners catually WANT to go there so the Emirati attitude is essentialy that if you really want to come to their great country its going to cost you....
Join Date: Mar 2007
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SIC- perhaps the 'hardship posting' is for the kids. Refer to your posting on the 2 hour trip to school, something of a contradiction to your assertion above.
The hardship for parents is still there- shoebox apartments, kids seeing their grandparents twice a year, filthy air, expensive western supermarket products, communication difficulties. Unless you get off on these sort of things, its still a hardship posting- just different hardships nowadays.
Cx & Ka used to assist with these hurdles. Cheers.
The hardship for parents is still there- shoebox apartments, kids seeing their grandparents twice a year, filthy air, expensive western supermarket products, communication difficulties. Unless you get off on these sort of things, its still a hardship posting- just different hardships nowadays.
Cx & Ka used to assist with these hurdles. Cheers.
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outtahere
I think if you read my posting carefully you might pick up that I agree with you - when I used the word 'was' in referal to hardship I did not mean that hardship is a thing of the past - the opposite actually. I just said that 'management' these days don't see what we do as hardship anymore.
So to me both postings tie up nicely. Logic and all that you know.
I think if you read my posting carefully you might pick up that I agree with you - when I used the word 'was' in referal to hardship I did not mean that hardship is a thing of the past - the opposite actually. I just said that 'management' these days don't see what we do as hardship anymore.
So to me both postings tie up nicely. Logic and all that you know.
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Sorry Lowkoon...Not racing you to the bottom of anything.
I suppose the you should trade jobs with one of the boys from "Bangladesh". Boy would they be happy. Or better yet...why don't we lobby for the Bangladesh boys to get a raise??
There is no denying the fact that my company and Dragon could be better...but my points still stand. Hong Kong is not a bad place...if you have a problem with it .. then you are definitely in the wrong place. You don't want your kids in the local education system, and you definitly want the benefit of private health care.
I am, by the way intimitely knowledgeable about Hong Kong and flying over there. I did it for 3 years. And it wasn't that bad. In fact the work is remarkably almost the same. So...I am comparing apples to apples. I have the same job you have now...and I used to have...in N America. I just wish I still had that low tax rate, the house allowance, the 13 month pay, the 15.5% pension payment up front, private health care, and 90% paid private school for my kids.
If you dont like it so much over there, then why don't you vote with your feet! All the N. American carriers are hiring again...sounds like you belong over here ... not over there.
Ohhh...but then you will be complaining about the same things I am now!!
I suppose the you should trade jobs with one of the boys from "Bangladesh". Boy would they be happy. Or better yet...why don't we lobby for the Bangladesh boys to get a raise??
There is no denying the fact that my company and Dragon could be better...but my points still stand. Hong Kong is not a bad place...if you have a problem with it .. then you are definitely in the wrong place. You don't want your kids in the local education system, and you definitly want the benefit of private health care.
I am, by the way intimitely knowledgeable about Hong Kong and flying over there. I did it for 3 years. And it wasn't that bad. In fact the work is remarkably almost the same. So...I am comparing apples to apples. I have the same job you have now...and I used to have...in N America. I just wish I still had that low tax rate, the house allowance, the 13 month pay, the 15.5% pension payment up front, private health care, and 90% paid private school for my kids.
If you dont like it so much over there, then why don't you vote with your feet! All the N. American carriers are hiring again...sounds like you belong over here ... not over there.
Ohhh...but then you will be complaining about the same things I am now!!
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Gday 555orange, when I was reffering to different environments, I was reffering to economic. We are in the fastest growing aviation environment on earth, with quarterly growth outstripping annual projections regularly, compared to lumbering inefficient giants preteding to want to come out of the protection of chapter 11. Which airline environment should be paying more? When you guys start competing on an unprotected playing field, and making money, I am sure the staff will want to share in the good times too. I have absolutely no doubt that you guys will not be expecting futher pay cuts like KA is offering us when things get good. That is what this thread is about, not how Ka compares to the US.
I do like Hong Kong. I hate the pollution. The terms and conditions are what they are. Better than some, not as good as others. But if I was looking to join a company, I would listen to people who work there, not someone who isnt or hasnt, and is calling them a pack of spoilt whingers with no concept of how it is in the real world. Im telling you now, all the guys I work with have spent more than their fair share of their working lives in the "real world". I respect your position, and of course you are entitled to it, but its not about the money, thats what these guys are trying to advise potential new hires. T & Cs are only a small part of moving to Hong kong. Good luck with your research. Cheers.
I do like Hong Kong. I hate the pollution. The terms and conditions are what they are. Better than some, not as good as others. But if I was looking to join a company, I would listen to people who work there, not someone who isnt or hasnt, and is calling them a pack of spoilt whingers with no concept of how it is in the real world. Im telling you now, all the guys I work with have spent more than their fair share of their working lives in the "real world". I respect your position, and of course you are entitled to it, but its not about the money, thats what these guys are trying to advise potential new hires. T & Cs are only a small part of moving to Hong kong. Good luck with your research. Cheers.
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Hey again Kowloon.
Consider my points as my own whining over my tax situation. I do still believe though that I am way more happier being in my own home country. I think I was for a bit... hoping that things were good over there because in some ways I miss flying over there. But the reality is that in Hong Kong, the labor laws always favour the company not the employee. The employee will aways get the shaft. I would like to come back over,,but I have measured over the last month and have come to the very strong conclusion that its better being in a Western country with the higher taxes. In the long run, you will do much better. Its fun to go out and taste the world, but in my opinion, having been there and done that...anyone considering going to hong kong....forget it. Focus on the good local co's. Yes the tax is higher, but there are alot more benefits that far outweigh what is happening to our colleagues in Hong Kong. As I mentioned on the Cathay post, SOLIDARITY is what hong kong need and that is where I believe the guys over there need to work on. If they can become stronger as a group, maybe they can start to move the company into a direction where fairness is not just a word. When you get a pref bidding system for rosters...maybe then I will take another look. Till then...I will stay put. Good luck Kowloon, and to all who make the move!
Consider my points as my own whining over my tax situation. I do still believe though that I am way more happier being in my own home country. I think I was for a bit... hoping that things were good over there because in some ways I miss flying over there. But the reality is that in Hong Kong, the labor laws always favour the company not the employee. The employee will aways get the shaft. I would like to come back over,,but I have measured over the last month and have come to the very strong conclusion that its better being in a Western country with the higher taxes. In the long run, you will do much better. Its fun to go out and taste the world, but in my opinion, having been there and done that...anyone considering going to hong kong....forget it. Focus on the good local co's. Yes the tax is higher, but there are alot more benefits that far outweigh what is happening to our colleagues in Hong Kong. As I mentioned on the Cathay post, SOLIDARITY is what hong kong need and that is where I believe the guys over there need to work on. If they can become stronger as a group, maybe they can start to move the company into a direction where fairness is not just a word. When you get a pref bidding system for rosters...maybe then I will take another look. Till then...I will stay put. Good luck Kowloon, and to all who make the move!
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Gday 555Orange. Think you are making the right choice by staying put. As for a preferential bidding system for rosters, not likely any time soon. Not sure the network has any great destination choices either! Maybe a rostering agreement will eventuate, but you will have to wait for a change in management first.
One thing KA does have is solidarity, courtesy of some idiot offering us a decrease in pay for more work.
Mr Bloggs, we a are under no illusions of grandure, we have no doubts that the GMO has an itchy trigger finger, he would like nothing more than to repeat history by making a few examples of some crew, our only saving grace is their inability to get crewing levels right.
Is it just me, or could have all this unpleasantness have been easily avoided by putting the 744 on b scale? At the moment, he is spending an absolute fortune to save face it would seem, surely someone over the road is keeping an eye on this situation? Wonder if he will still think he is right, and singing the praises of the HKRO when the last HKRO has left for Oasis, or bidded back to the airbus?
One thing KA does have is solidarity, courtesy of some idiot offering us a decrease in pay for more work.
Mr Bloggs, we a are under no illusions of grandure, we have no doubts that the GMO has an itchy trigger finger, he would like nothing more than to repeat history by making a few examples of some crew, our only saving grace is their inability to get crewing levels right.
Is it just me, or could have all this unpleasantness have been easily avoided by putting the 744 on b scale? At the moment, he is spending an absolute fortune to save face it would seem, surely someone over the road is keeping an eye on this situation? Wonder if he will still think he is right, and singing the praises of the HKRO when the last HKRO has left for Oasis, or bidded back to the airbus?
