Hkg Atc
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: hkong
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ATC hours
Oasis,
Normally we do not work more than a ten hour shift..standard pattern is a ten day cycle 2 afternoons 2 mornings 2 night shifts syandard shift 8 to ten hours long ..
on radar for max 2 hours then a break of up to an hour and back for more.
Thanks for the encouraging comments..more than we get from management.
Normally we do not work more than a ten hour shift..standard pattern is a ten day cycle 2 afternoons 2 mornings 2 night shifts syandard shift 8 to ten hours long ..
on radar for max 2 hours then a break of up to an hour and back for more.
Thanks for the encouraging comments..more than we get from management.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Shagland
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Dyce,
Point taken with the Director Fq and the TCAS seperation, totally agreed. Still why the extra radar vector for 07 when it is pretty much the same as the publish approach track from LIMES/SOKOE? You can still give us speed control for spacing until tower handover and it would save on radio congestion. It will also let us plan our descent profile without worrying about short cuts (or late turns) for LOC intercept.
Point taken with the Director Fq and the TCAS seperation, totally agreed. Still why the extra radar vector for 07 when it is pretty much the same as the publish approach track from LIMES/SOKOE? You can still give us speed control for spacing until tower handover and it would save on radio congestion. It will also let us plan our descent profile without worrying about short cuts (or late turns) for LOC intercept.
Join Date: Nov 2001
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Dixi,
I'm all for letting a/c do there own thing when possible,but having 5 a/c close together,on base leg for 07,wandering around is really
.You'd have to vertically separate,because they are basically on their own navigation,so you can't prove separation to the powers that be.
Also with the best will in the world,a/c doing these self positions to centre fixes or whatever,are all over the place.A good Fin can put them on the ILS very accurately.If the numbers are limited on Fin to 5 or 6 then R/T loading is ok.
If the airport continues to grow then the hourly rate has to go up.Heathrow are doing 2.5 mile spacing in the right conditions.It can be done.Everyone has to get up to speed.The CAD has to open their eyes.Kai Tak is gone.
I'm all for letting a/c do there own thing when possible,but having 5 a/c close together,on base leg for 07,wandering around is really
.You'd have to vertically separate,because they are basically on their own navigation,so you can't prove separation to the powers that be.Also with the best will in the world,a/c doing these self positions to centre fixes or whatever,are all over the place.A good Fin can put them on the ILS very accurately.If the numbers are limited on Fin to 5 or 6 then R/T loading is ok.
If the airport continues to grow then the hourly rate has to go up.Heathrow are doing 2.5 mile spacing in the right conditions.It can be done.Everyone has to get up to speed.The CAD has to open their eyes.Kai Tak is gone.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Hong Kong
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A lot of friendly banter here guys n dolls......"Dragqueen 69"..."Ball juggler".
In the mire is a suggestion for a few drinks...for genuine pressure relief and lubrication, I suggest Nana Plaza later in the month. Dragqueens and Ball jugglers are readily available there.
"roll me in honey and throw me to the Lesbians"
In the mire is a suggestion for a few drinks...for genuine pressure relief and lubrication, I suggest Nana Plaza later in the month. Dragqueens and Ball jugglers are readily available there.
"roll me in honey and throw me to the Lesbians"
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Whats with the approach controller telling us to keep 210 kts to 12 miles, then change to tower who then informs us that windshear is reported ? This then leaves us with having to reconfigure the aircraft for a windshear technique approach, and change in Vapp and to be configured and stabilized by 1500 feet instead of 1000 feet. Is it possible for the approach controller to talk to the tower controller and vice versa and to then realise that a more conservative speed control is now necessary ?
This is by no means an attack on ATC but rather a question about comunication between controllers and whether they are taking actual conditions into account ?
Peace
This is by no means an attack on ATC but rather a question about comunication between controllers and whether they are taking actual conditions into account ?
Peace
Hi SMOC,
Thanks for the information;
I find Hong Kong ATC the best around. Went in yesterday and we landed as aircraft had just exited high speed taxiway. He was told to expedite. We touched down just behind him and were told to expedite. As we pulled off you could see the next one over the fence. If only Singapore ATC went to Hong Kong for training
It is the only place we go (Jetstar Asia) where we touch down consistantly earlier than plan.
Good on you Hong Kong ATC
Thanks for the information;
I find Hong Kong ATC the best around. Went in yesterday and we landed as aircraft had just exited high speed taxiway. He was told to expedite. We touched down just behind him and were told to expedite. As we pulled off you could see the next one over the fence. If only Singapore ATC went to Hong Kong for training
It is the only place we go (Jetstar Asia) where we touch down consistantly earlier than plan.
Good on you Hong Kong ATC
Join Date: Sep 2006
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hkg atc
Whats with the approach controller telling us to keep 210 kts to 12 miles, then change to tower who then informs us that windshear is reported ? This then leaves us with having to reconfigure the aircraft for a windshear technique approach, and change in Vapp and to be configured and stabilized by 1500 feet instead of 1000 feet. Is it possible for the approach controller to talk to the tower controller and vice versa and to then realise that a more conservative speed control is now necessary ?
This is by no means an attack on ATC but rather a question about comunication between controllers and whether they are taking actual conditions into account ?
Peace
This is by no means an attack on ATC but rather a question about comunication between controllers and whether they are taking actual conditions into account ?
Peace
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Hong Kong
Age: 76
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Mairyhinge – To sum up some of the above threads, most pilots think ATC know the profiles of the aircraft they fly, the company SOPs and even the engine fail procedures for their specific aircraft type and Company. We don’t. Your company doesn’t tell us, the manufacturer doesn’t tell us and you can’t learn about it from a Flight magazine.
We have around 70 regular operators into CLK flying everything from Biz-jets to 747’s and all have different SOPs, even for the same aircraft types. As ‘valeriey’ says, if you can’t do something or are uncomfortable with the instructions given to you, tell us and then tell us what you can do. We will then do our very best to modify what we are doing to suit the situation. (Relative positions, levels and speeds of other aircraft ahead and behind you will have a bearing on this). The earlier you tell us, the more likely you will get what you want.
As for the windshear warnings, if it’s forecast, or observed, it will be on the ATIS. If it’s a warning which has only just occurred, it is given to you when you call the tower, which in turn is usually before 5 miles. Also remember that all windshear warnings are based on LOW LEVEL warnings, i.e. below 900’ and only for final approach or departure which is defined in the Hong Kong AIP as the final 3 nm to touchdown or the first 3nm on departure. When I last looked 900’ is below the 1000’ you should be stabilized anyway.
We have around 70 regular operators into CLK flying everything from Biz-jets to 747’s and all have different SOPs, even for the same aircraft types. As ‘valeriey’ says, if you can’t do something or are uncomfortable with the instructions given to you, tell us and then tell us what you can do. We will then do our very best to modify what we are doing to suit the situation. (Relative positions, levels and speeds of other aircraft ahead and behind you will have a bearing on this). The earlier you tell us, the more likely you will get what you want.
As for the windshear warnings, if it’s forecast, or observed, it will be on the ATIS. If it’s a warning which has only just occurred, it is given to you when you call the tower, which in turn is usually before 5 miles. Also remember that all windshear warnings are based on LOW LEVEL warnings, i.e. below 900’ and only for final approach or departure which is defined in the Hong Kong AIP as the final 3 nm to touchdown or the first 3nm on departure. When I last looked 900’ is below the 1000’ you should be stabilized anyway.
valeriey,
"Most controllers are fed up with you guys who thinks that yours is the only aeroplane in the sky and expect us to know how to serve everyone of you."
No, there's 100 of our aeroplanes in the sky. I don't think that post was saying that in the sense you've taken it. Yes, there are difficult people in the sky and on the ground but lets keep it in proportion.
"Most controllers are fed up with you guys who thinks that yours is the only aeroplane in the sky and expect us to know how to serve everyone of you."
No, there's 100 of our aeroplanes in the sky. I don't think that post was saying that in the sense you've taken it. Yes, there are difficult people in the sky and on the ground but lets keep it in proportion.
Join Date: Nov 2001
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So when are they going to recruit Gweilos again? There must be a retirement bulge coming up with both local and expat.
I have no intention of going back even if they asked me,( which is very unlikely)
! Did my stint of Dogs and Babies land.
. Hey,Boss Norman are you reading this? 
I have no intention of going back even if they asked me,( which is very unlikely)
! Did my stint of Dogs and Babies land.. Hey,Boss Norman are you reading this?
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Valeriey my dear, if you slow down and re-read my original post you will see I was not attacking ATC but rather asking a question. So please take a minute to comprehend the post.
The windshear was not on the atis. I understand that ws can happen suddenly so there is not always time. The configuration change was necessary but not impossible. I think you will find that most airlines configure early in conditions where there is windshear and or poor weather / visiblity.
IGS, comments noted and you are quite correct, better for us to speak up at the time.
Again not an attack on the job done by the sometimes overly sensitive (Valeriey) ATC
The Hinge
The windshear was not on the atis. I understand that ws can happen suddenly so there is not always time. The configuration change was necessary but not impossible. I think you will find that most airlines configure early in conditions where there is windshear and or poor weather / visiblity.
IGS, comments noted and you are quite correct, better for us to speak up at the time.
Again not an attack on the job done by the sometimes overly sensitive (Valeriey) ATC
The Hinge
Join Date: Jun 2006
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This topic got a lot of interest at work lately. Seems a lot of colleages ready to take some action over their leave and pay. Maybe next month is not a good time to fly from HK?
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Bottom line.
Came in today on an emergency, asked for return to Hong Kong. A BIG thank you to the guys/ girls on duty.... a great job, you took a load of our shoulders. Was given good steers with relevant info. e.g. track miles to go. On asking which runway to expect we were given wind directions on all thresholds and asked which we preferred. After touch down we were given good info. after the roll out by tower. Don't want to go into to much detail, but it show we can bitch about everyday ops. as much as we like, but this afternoon showed that when the chips are down you delivered the goods.
P.S. It sounded like the supervisors / senior controllers took over when we declared emergency, or was that just the adrenaline pumping?
P.S. It sounded like the supervisors / senior controllers took over when we declared emergency, or was that just the adrenaline pumping?
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Fed up Hong Kong controllers
As a VHHH controller, here are a few comments to pilots who complain about negative comments and worse from ATC. Sure, we sometimes get sarcastic and make comments to pilots who either don't listen or don't comply. Please consider our situation, though:
The Government & Joseph Wong and his gang have cut our salaries 3 times. We are now back at 1997 levels. There seems no realistic hope of any increase in the coming years. With family commitments, I am finding it increasingly hard to meke ends meet financially.
"The Employer's MPF contribution" is actually taken from our gratuity. So in reality, we are forced to invest 2000 HKD per month in a fund we would normally not touch with a barge pole. The employer's contribution is ZERO!
Due to staff shortage leave is almost impossible to get now. The ATCO leave programme tells its own tale: In December TWO radar controllers got leave. Our incompetent management could not care less and basically sit in their offices with their heads up their rear ends. Why should they care? Airplanes generally still take off and land on time. Their leave is guaranteed at Christmas, CNY and Easter. They are - at best - still in Kai Tak - 200 movements per day-mode. At worst, simply petty bureaucrats awaiting their pension. They certainly have no idea how to run a busy ATC unit. To add insult to injury, a recent memo was issued with a warning that management reserves the right to cancel already approved leave with short notice. Not that there is a lot left for them to cancel.
The poor locals are having an even harder time regarding leave. The main difference between them and the expats here is that they are easier to bully as they have a "career" to protect. Some of them have now reached the maximum number of days they are allowed to accrue, (varying from 40 to 180 days) but still cannot get any leave. Our friendly management has told them they must expect to simply lose the leave due to "critical staff shortage". Hardly legal, but our so-called union cannot help. They must also protect their careers, of course.
Last week, one of the nazis from the fourth floor spotted a controller on a shuttle bus 30 minutes before he was expected to leave work. With great management skills the the manager investegated this extremely important matter and had words with the supervisor who released his controller before the end of his shift. The ATCO has been deducted 30 minutes from his TOIL balance and memos reminding staff not to leave early have been issued. No doubt, the ATCO's name can be found in the dreaded "pink book" where all dirty deeds such as this one are carefully noted and kept forever. Useful information for future reference!
With a critical staff shortage, management still run SAR courses and send people overseas for various Mickey Mouse courses. The sad reality of today is that the front line controllers are paying the price for years of mismanagement and poor planning. The problem is massive and gets bigger every day. To say that staff morale is low is the understatement of the year!
Additionally, we daily have to cope with the increasingly ridiculous Fred Flintstones restrictions imposed by ATC China. "10 minutes via Bekol, irrespective of level - you are number 8!".Try telling that to an impatient aircrew. It would be great to see restriction on traffic ENTERING HK FIR for a change - especially with bad weather around. However,this will not happen as it means standing up to big brother.
I know we are free to walk out in search of greener pastures, but this is easier said than done. But I do feel that most of the controllers are rapidly approaching the breaking point. The number of daily movements have doubled since the opening of CLK, but our conditions have constantly deteriorated. On top of that AA are still pushing for more landing slots.
So for all you CX, KA and other drivers out there: We are really sorry if we bark at you at times. We know we should be courteous and professional, we know we have a job because of you and not the other way around. But enough is enough. We despise the people we work for and are very, very angry. Frankly, many of us can be compared to Krakatoa in the days leading up to the explosion in 1883. Please try to bear with our grumpiness - it has nothing to do with you!
The Government & Joseph Wong and his gang have cut our salaries 3 times. We are now back at 1997 levels. There seems no realistic hope of any increase in the coming years. With family commitments, I am finding it increasingly hard to meke ends meet financially.
"The Employer's MPF contribution" is actually taken from our gratuity. So in reality, we are forced to invest 2000 HKD per month in a fund we would normally not touch with a barge pole. The employer's contribution is ZERO!
Due to staff shortage leave is almost impossible to get now. The ATCO leave programme tells its own tale: In December TWO radar controllers got leave. Our incompetent management could not care less and basically sit in their offices with their heads up their rear ends. Why should they care? Airplanes generally still take off and land on time. Their leave is guaranteed at Christmas, CNY and Easter. They are - at best - still in Kai Tak - 200 movements per day-mode. At worst, simply petty bureaucrats awaiting their pension. They certainly have no idea how to run a busy ATC unit. To add insult to injury, a recent memo was issued with a warning that management reserves the right to cancel already approved leave with short notice. Not that there is a lot left for them to cancel.
The poor locals are having an even harder time regarding leave. The main difference between them and the expats here is that they are easier to bully as they have a "career" to protect. Some of them have now reached the maximum number of days they are allowed to accrue, (varying from 40 to 180 days) but still cannot get any leave. Our friendly management has told them they must expect to simply lose the leave due to "critical staff shortage". Hardly legal, but our so-called union cannot help. They must also protect their careers, of course.
Last week, one of the nazis from the fourth floor spotted a controller on a shuttle bus 30 minutes before he was expected to leave work. With great management skills the the manager investegated this extremely important matter and had words with the supervisor who released his controller before the end of his shift. The ATCO has been deducted 30 minutes from his TOIL balance and memos reminding staff not to leave early have been issued. No doubt, the ATCO's name can be found in the dreaded "pink book" where all dirty deeds such as this one are carefully noted and kept forever. Useful information for future reference!
With a critical staff shortage, management still run SAR courses and send people overseas for various Mickey Mouse courses. The sad reality of today is that the front line controllers are paying the price for years of mismanagement and poor planning. The problem is massive and gets bigger every day. To say that staff morale is low is the understatement of the year!
Additionally, we daily have to cope with the increasingly ridiculous Fred Flintstones restrictions imposed by ATC China. "10 minutes via Bekol, irrespective of level - you are number 8!".Try telling that to an impatient aircrew. It would be great to see restriction on traffic ENTERING HK FIR for a change - especially with bad weather around. However,this will not happen as it means standing up to big brother.
I know we are free to walk out in search of greener pastures, but this is easier said than done. But I do feel that most of the controllers are rapidly approaching the breaking point. The number of daily movements have doubled since the opening of CLK, but our conditions have constantly deteriorated. On top of that AA are still pushing for more landing slots.
So for all you CX, KA and other drivers out there: We are really sorry if we bark at you at times. We know we should be courteous and professional, we know we have a job because of you and not the other way around. But enough is enough. We despise the people we work for and are very, very angry. Frankly, many of us can be compared to Krakatoa in the days leading up to the explosion in 1883. Please try to bear with our grumpiness - it has nothing to do with you!
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RRSM - thanks for all that, explains a lot.
Still not sure why that lady on ground freq tells everyone to "standby" on first contact EVERYTIME, thus increasing her own workload .
Still not sure why that lady on ground freq tells everyone to "standby" on first contact EVERYTIME, thus increasing her own workload .
Join Date: Sep 2006
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WeeJohn....!
My pleasure!
Please be advised that we have more than 40 ladies with a valid Ground rating plus quite a few on training. It will thus be hard to identify "the lady on ground".
There can be a number of reasons to say "standby" - sometimes the controller just needs to think. If it happens all the time it could be that she "needs a little more experience". Some of them are very green and you are a lot more likely to get a "standby" with no explanation given from somebody on training.
I think a lot of pilots would benefit significantly from sitting next to a controller during a busy spell - Tower, Approach or Area Radar. This is the only way that you guys will get to appreciate what we are doing and why we are doing it - maybe! A bunch of pilots herded through the ATCX by a CAD official is a complete waste of time. Come closer, plug in and have a casual chat to the controllers if you can!
My pleasure!
Please be advised that we have more than 40 ladies with a valid Ground rating plus quite a few on training. It will thus be hard to identify "the lady on ground".
There can be a number of reasons to say "standby" - sometimes the controller just needs to think. If it happens all the time it could be that she "needs a little more experience". Some of them are very green and you are a lot more likely to get a "standby" with no explanation given from somebody on training.
I think a lot of pilots would benefit significantly from sitting next to a controller during a busy spell - Tower, Approach or Area Radar. This is the only way that you guys will get to appreciate what we are doing and why we are doing it - maybe! A bunch of pilots herded through the ATCX by a CAD official is a complete waste of time. Come closer, plug in and have a casual chat to the controllers if you can!
Join Date: May 2004
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Ahh yes...the "Almighty Traffic Cone". The great adversary. Many have met their demise when confronted by the Traffic Cone.
I would have taken a picture too. I'll be laughing at that one for a while.
I would have taken a picture too. I'll be laughing at that one for a while.
Join Date: Sep 2006
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Reply to Suzie Wong
You go there Girl ! ... and tell it like it is.. Sincerely, it doesn't sound at all good for HK ATC at present... Just hope things improve for you all.
Have to say, that in my now many years of flying out of Kai Tak and CLK... HK ATC have provided excellent service. Indeed there are many constraints that you have to deal with.... Airspace, Traffic Coordination across the border, the odd Typhoon here and there....Inspite of all, you all do a great job and do your level best to provide safe and efficient control of the airspace. Thanks a heap to all.... We appreciate your efforts immensely.
As for my favourite on the frequencies, whom I affectionately call "Mr Grumpy" ...(we all know his voice well and the term Mr Grumpy is really a term of endearment, so don't take offence matey)... he really isn't all that mean. He's an ACE controller, along with the many others in HK... and actually I quite get a tickle when he pulls some wayward aviators in to line from time to time.... I just quiver in my seat if I've given him cause to bark at me !
Have to say, that in my now many years of flying out of Kai Tak and CLK... HK ATC have provided excellent service. Indeed there are many constraints that you have to deal with.... Airspace, Traffic Coordination across the border, the odd Typhoon here and there....Inspite of all, you all do a great job and do your level best to provide safe and efficient control of the airspace. Thanks a heap to all.... We appreciate your efforts immensely.
As for my favourite on the frequencies, whom I affectionately call "Mr Grumpy" ...(we all know his voice well and the term Mr Grumpy is really a term of endearment, so don't take offence matey)... he really isn't all that mean. He's an ACE controller, along with the many others in HK... and actually I quite get a tickle when he pulls some wayward aviators in to line from time to time.... I just quiver in my seat if I've given him cause to bark at me !