Hkg Atc

[alatnariver]

... but at least we, pilots and atc started talking here, better than nothing. We know far too less of each other in respect to our jobs.

[Liam Gallagher]

After 15 hours droning back from LA, a pretty voice saying "welcome back" is fantastic... long may it continue...............

[Kane Toed]

Yeah, I like his voice too...

[throw a dyce]

I found in HK that ATC management would always back the pilot rather than the controller.I had a case where a Dynasty just wouldn't get off the runway.It missed 3 high speed turnoffs at snail pace,nearly causing a go-around and then got on the wrong taxiway.I stopped him on the taxiway to let him get his bearing.The pilot then rang in to complain about me being rude,and ATC management were backing him (in local lingo of course).I nearly got the phone,and it would have made Billy Connolly look like saint.Lucky pilot.
Maybe that's why there are some nippy comments around.It's the controllers only chance.CAD management didn't back their controllers at all.

[Viper2]

hahaha ... It is a funny and both interesting discussion indeed! Maybe sometimes people get a little bit snappy after long hours of duty (both pilots and ATC controllers). Shouldn't be like that but it happens.

If we have a delay for push-back I would appreciate ATC (time permitting) to tell me the reason and maybe an estimate. We have passengers on the aicraft as well and we would like to inform them as well. But, actually IMHO I think Hong Kong ATC provides a very good service despite the problems descriped by Suzy.

A funny thing is that for example in Shanghai where pushback delays are pretty common (up to 2 hours somtimes) the controllers always gives you the reason:

1) Due to seppalation;
2) Due to westwictions;
3) Due to ...................... standby .....

It is always one of these three so no need to ask anymore.

Talking about these experiences in mainland China. I have a question for any HKG controller on this board.

I recognize and read here that many of the problems in HKG airspace are caused by mainland China restrictions. However, when flying in Mainland China these restrictions only seem to apply for "foreign" companies. Many times I have been at the holding point at Chinese airport waiting and seeing chinese aircraft (pushed back long times after us) passing us and taking off from an earlier intersection going to the same area as our flight.

Apparantly there is no formal or political way to solve these problems. What about imposing the same policy to chinese aircraft as foreign aircraft suffer in mainland China? Maybe that solves or forces a solution to this problem?

[Bedder believeit]

Hi Viper (you weren't in "Top Gun" by any chance were you?).
Firstly, it is a fine line that one draws as to whether or not one tells an aircraft an expected push back time, as (a) we often give a time, and then the whole scenario is changed by our friends "up there", (2) often when we advise an aircraft who is "language challenged" of an expectation, then some times they will just go and push anyway, (3) it becomes a balancing act as to workload/time availability as to whether or not it is worthwhile giving expectations from our side of things. That may sound pathetic, but at 8.45 at night when ground is on combine and we are up to our armpits in towing aircraft around (often unnecessarily) at the airlines behest, and there are continuous arrivals arriving at "full bays", and everyone in the World wants a departure push back at the same time from adjacent bays...well it aint fun.

As to the people working in the Radar, let me assure you guys that after a couple of hours working approach or departures when it is busy and especially if there are lot's of weather deviations thrown in to boot, well that aint pretty either. Then there's a bit of a break and you come back in and do it all again. As "Dycey" says, you will get no support or back up from management, both at the intermediate level (shift supervisors) or higher up the chain. Anything that goes pear shaped is "your fault". Sure it can be argued, well "it's a democracy....why don't you walk?" well, not quite so easy. Many of the expats gave up a lot of security to come here, and have made significant family commitments to stay on...for the time being, so interesting times ahead if many more depart. When you consider that my overall package (salary and Accom. Allow) is about 25% lower than what it was 5 years ago.....

As far as your suggestion that we start to take things out on our airline friends from up North, you gotta be joking. The whole scenario here is bending over and doing whatever the people up there say. Some bright spark North of here decided recently that it would be a good idea if they implimented 10mins flow control between aircraft (regardless of level) going up A461 to Europe each night between 11 and 12.30. It just so happens that we have up to 10 departures going that way within about a 60 minute period, so one doesn't have to be Pythagoras to figure out where these departures have to be delayed. Instead of our management saying "stiff, we will send them as per the agreed values", we put up with it, and you guys have to take the consequences.

It's a cultural thing, around here the mainland is No 1 and we unfortunately have to kow tow to a certain extent. I do sympathise with Dragon 69, there are people who will cause a bit of angst, I don't know the answer, well, I do but this is supposed to be polite here, at least as someone else pointed out on this thread, there is some fairly open discussion taking place.

[throw a dyce]

Bedder,
In 5.5 years my pay has increased by 30% so that's a swing of about 55%.Maybe Dragon 69 has a point and you guys should consider joining the real world again.Leave CAD in a real pickle.CPA's vast profit flushed down the Fragrant Harbour.
If they tried that pay cut stunt here,all British airlines would be bankrupt.The strike would have been devastating.

[Viper2]

Hi Bedder,

Actually I applied for this position in the Top Gun movie but unfortunately I failed the selection. After trying a lot of other things the only job that worked out was to be a pilot ...

Thanks for your reply ... it makes some of the things going on here more clear. Just to make sure we do not have a misunderstanding: I find it a relief to get back into HKG airspace after a flight in mainland China. Especially when the weather is bad and a lot of stuff is going on! I can remember just recently the weather in the HKG area causing everybody to divert and I must say almost everything is possible. So no complaints at all!

I am surprised (and a little bit shocked) by hearing your story. I did not realize that our "friends" from the North are completely in controll of whatever is going on in HKG airspace (including the terms and conditions at HKG ATC). Maybe I should have know better.

Cheers and keep up the good work!

[SuzieWong]

Good to hear we get support from many pilots here.

Bedder
All ATC are having it tough at the moment but at least you expats can more easliy stand up to management to demand your rights because you are already at the top.
We hear the other voice which tells us that our career prospects will not be good if we don't come in on days off. What do we get? No overtime payment, just TOIL.
You notice nearly all leave has gone to expats because they have to give it to you but some of us have more than 100 days owing and no chance of getting it for a long time.
How can management get out of this? Last time they were lucky with SARS when they owe us more than 10000 hours and made us take leave.
This time we can't get it even if we want it!
Time for action.

[bekolblockage]

Originally Posted by Bedder believeit

..... you can be assured that "Mr Difficult" today will be back at the workplace as "Mr Difficult" tomorrow, and still being the same unhelpful self.

I thought they got rid of "Mr Difficult" last month.

[Bedder believeit]

Yeah Suzie, I couldn't agree more. The locals are doing it much tougher than the expats, we tend to get away with things that the locals don't. The pay rates for junior ATCO's is pathetic. What to do?

[BusyB]

Suzie & Co,
Good to see your inputs here. Always a pleasure to get back in HKG airspace despite the odd grumpy sod. Yes, I like being"Welcome Home'd". Regards to whomever it is.

Good luck with pay and leave, we need it as much as you!!

[Dixi Normus]

As for the radio congestion, would it be easier if we could fly the 07L/R approaches as published from LIMES/SOKOE instead of radar vector? I would guess that 90% of the aircraft going into CLK are FMS/GPS equipped, so no problem with going off track. Just tell them to keep X-nm TCAS seperation and follow the published speed control. Anyone going out of line will be told to go-around. The new Director fq don't seem to improve on the radio congestion problem, just more fq change during a busy approach period. With that said, HKG ATC is still head and shoulder above the rest of Asia, keep up the good work!

[Geriatric Jet Jugler]

Dear Dragair 69
The responses that you have prompted clearly shows that there are many simmering frustrations amongst HK ATC that only need a little stir to become a boiling cauldron of anger and irritation. However we are all professionals and I agree we should not allow such issues to affect our operational performance.

To return to the original post concerning your ‘valid inquiry’. Now that you have provided some more information I hope I can provide you with rational and logical reasons/excuses/alibis as promised.

Are you aware of Hong Kong AIP Supplement A04/06 Introduction of Final Approach Radar Director Service at Hong Kong International Airport (or more likely, has your company told you about it) ? This states that Hong Kong Director (119.5) will closely monitor arriving traffic on intermediate and final approach and apply speed control to ensure the required spacing is achieved to maximize runway utilisation. Then look at the RWY 25L/25R ILS chart - the speed control is to cross 5 DME not less than 150 kt. Therefore the Director may retain arrivals until they have passed 5 miles from touchdown to ensure correct spacing and wake turbulence separation. On a good day with room to spare, the Director may transfer arrivals to the tower at 6 or 7 mile final.

Therefore your inquiry at 5 / 6 miles (different posts have different distances), the controller’s reply, then a transfer to tower a couple of seconds later, could be explained thus: the approach controller wanted to keep you on his frequency to maintain spacing with preceding or following traffic until ATC speed control was no longer applicable, at which time he transferred you to the tower. (Please note that this is one possible reason – there are many other scenarios involving dodgy winds, GFS or flight check aircraft.)

[throw a dyce]

Dixi,
Don't quite get your point here.The reason for having a Fin/Director is to spread the overall R/T burdon.For Fin to be working properly then you need 5 to 6 a/c on frequency at all time.He/She then just nails speeds,heading,spacing.But it will be a busy frequency when you are going for min vortex,or 3 miles.
Also by introducing reduced spacing,then there are more a/c in there,so R/T stays high.Best way is stick to standard R/T,listen out so nothing needs repeated,and change frequency WHEN TOLD.
When doing Fin here,I operate as you get an instruction once and I don't want to repeat it.You can lose separation very quickly with dosy pilots,or ones that want to do there own thing.
TCAS is not an ATC separation tool.Just to save your neck when we screw up!

[bamboosnake]

Rodney ...10min separation from china through Dotmi three overfliers at FL330 release you for your planned level FL370 and then you can't make it...now we need to force a twenty minute gap between the overfliers that may be airborne from Sydney etc.
The other night 4 long haul flights through Noman to sydney Melbourne etc released with separation according to flight planned or requested FL ie FL330,FL370,FL330 and FL370 second Cathay can't make his level now they end up 330 290 270 370 sorry number three but number 2 didnt let us know till airborne. It really does help our planning if you can reach the level flight planned or let us know b4 pushback...never mind not making your level restriction by DOFIN which is sooo dangerous
Moral is low and tensions are mounting...be warned..though we will try to keep our sense of humour...

Originally Posted by rodney rude

How's this

On HK radar heading HK to Kaoshiung. Cleared to FL 370.
We ask "Request amended FL330"
HK Radar - "Standby"

He then comes back snappily "climb amended FL 330, and I would appreciate it if next time you get your company to flight plan you at the level you would actually like."

We didn't even bother responding to that stupid comment.

NB - the controller was not a gweillo.

Usually more than happy with HK ATC (particularly when the gweillos are on)

[moosp]

Most definitely they do not pay you enough. On a good relaxed day we get polite friendly control and advice. On a trough line day with Cb's all over with an evening complex, we get some of the finest controlling in the world.

Working in a muliti-cultural environment with variable RT competencies from the aircraft, you keep the stuff together. At ELATO or SIERRA when I change frequency I know I am not only home, but in safe hands.

Yes there will always be tensions with individuals on both ends of the RT. Live with it, humour them at both ends and remember that only pilots apologise, ATC does not. It is the protocol of aviation since Pontious. Live with that or go chicken farming.

Hong Kong does not do it often but sometimes a phone call afterwards to the duty oficer is a very good way of calming the frustrations of missed communications on arrival. I've done it a couple of times and been humbled by my simplistic problem being explained as part of their total problem.

And yes, you can welcome me back anytime. I think you begin to recognise our voices as we learn to recognise yours in ATC.

[Dragon69]

Dear jugler,

I was never arguing why at 6/5 miles I was still on app. frequency, I was merely making an inquiry to make certain he hadn't forgotten to switch us over, and please note that director frequency was not being used at the time. I wholeheartedly understand that there could be a number of reasons why I was left on app. freq. with 6/5 miles to touchdown, but it is not the norm. I would rather make an inquiry at 6/5 miles rather than 4/3 miles. My whole point was that his reply was out of line and unwarranted, nothing more nothing less, a more diplomatic reply would have gotten the message across. I do not pretend to be one of the Wright brothers, nor do I believe that I am the only traffic in HKG airspace, but I also shouldn't feel that I need to submit my inquiries to a review board before transmitting. I think the majority of us are experienced enough to differentiate between necessary and unnecessary queries, especially during peak periods.

Since you brought up the 150 kts + at 5 miles ie. 1500', and please understand that I am bringing this point as a discussion only. I think it is fair to say that the majority do not adhere to that. Operationally, we have to be at approach speed with thrust above idle by 1000', or the approach is deemed to be unstable. A light airbus will have an approach speed of around 135kts. Factor in a light tailwind, such has been the case on numerous occasions recently, and unless you start slowing the airplane from 180 kts at 8 miles, there will be a good chance that you will not achieve the required stable approach criteria. My whole point here is that from our perspective, at 5 miles, despite any speed control, most of us are already closer to approach speed. This is open for discussion and I would like to hear from others regarding the speed control at 5 miles on 25 and 07. Also, in our JEP page 10-4, it states " The published speed restrictions for the final approach segment are applicable for the Continuous Descent Approach procedure" Hence, if you are not on a CDA procedure, and have been cleared the procedural ILS, according to Mr. Jep you are not required to adhere to the published speed restrictions on final. Any thoughts from aircrew and controllers?

[SMOC]

Here is some good gen I received recently.

from Hong Kong Air Traffic Management standards section.

FL 130 at MELON/MANGO

Q: When initially cleared to be FL 130 at MELON/MANGO, then approaching these points ATC clears the aircraft to an altitude, do I still have to adhere to the FL 130 restriction?

A: No. Clearance to an altitude cancels previous restrictions, unless specifically stated otherwise by ATC.



8000FT at TD/TH

Q: When on approach to RWY 25, do I have to cross TD/TH at 8000FT?

A: No. This is a procedural restriction only, ATC clearance to an altitude lower than 8000FT automatically cancels this restriction.



SPEED CONTROL

Q 1: When ATC clears you for high speed through MELON/MANGO, does the 250KTS below FL110 still apply?

A 1: No. The high speed clearance applies until further advised by ATC.


Q 2: When cleared high speed do the final approach speed controls still apply?


A 2: Yes. As at any busy airport, strict adherence to final approach speed controls is essential, to allow ATC to maximize runway usage.

This is the stuff I like to find out from ATC, so looking forward to an informal beer!

[Oasis]

For me, it's joy to come back to hong kong airspace at the end of a few days of regional flying.
I really do think you guys working the radar and the tower are the best in asia.

But now a question: what is the longest ammount of time a controller could be on duty?

keep up the good work