Hkg Atc
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If a pilot asks APP or Director at 6 mile final if they should go to tower then that pilot wastes the time of the controller and all the others on the frequency. It is an inane question given that there is probably an aircraft ahead still not landed and others behind. If I'd wanted you to go to TWR then I would have transfered you already. Dealing with unneccessay questions breaks my concentration, interferes with my planned RTF calls, wastes RT time (often in short supply at HK). Please stop asking that particular question. I doubt if my US or European equivalent at a busy APP would be any more polite - it is a silly question.
I do not need to be second guessed by crews as often as happens at HK. All tower can say is 'continue approach' (and give wind and RVR etc) - wind and RVR are available on request from APP or Director and will be given in any case where necessay. A/c don't land any quicker if they are on TWR rather than APP. It is my job to provide appropiate spacing on final - where wake is involved this is also a safety issue.
APP and Director do talk with TWR - if we don't put an a/c over to TWR until late then TWR will be asking us for the a/c and/or issuing landing clearance for APP or Director to pass.
HK spacing on final is much tighter than it used to be (min wake if possible) and the APP or director needs the a/c on frequency longer than before to ensure accuracy. The winds on 25 are as tricky for us as they are for pilots. The choice is go to TWR earlier, fly your own speeds, spend longer in the air holding or on vectors - or - stay with APP or Director until transfered, fly the assigned speeds as ops permit, land earlier.
For 69 - take another vist to ATC if possible with an operational controller and not with someone from an HK ATC office post.
The next most silly question to APP/DEP from crews is 'what speed do you want us to fly' - you will already have been given one by a previous sector (or 'no speed restriction') just keep doing it - HK sector co-ordinate speeds between sectors - if I need to change your assigned speed then I will.
BFN
tolosweetpea
I do not need to be second guessed by crews as often as happens at HK. All tower can say is 'continue approach' (and give wind and RVR etc) - wind and RVR are available on request from APP or Director and will be given in any case where necessay. A/c don't land any quicker if they are on TWR rather than APP. It is my job to provide appropiate spacing on final - where wake is involved this is also a safety issue.
APP and Director do talk with TWR - if we don't put an a/c over to TWR until late then TWR will be asking us for the a/c and/or issuing landing clearance for APP or Director to pass.
HK spacing on final is much tighter than it used to be (min wake if possible) and the APP or director needs the a/c on frequency longer than before to ensure accuracy. The winds on 25 are as tricky for us as they are for pilots. The choice is go to TWR earlier, fly your own speeds, spend longer in the air holding or on vectors - or - stay with APP or Director until transfered, fly the assigned speeds as ops permit, land earlier.
For 69 - take another vist to ATC if possible with an operational controller and not with someone from an HK ATC office post.
The next most silly question to APP/DEP from crews is 'what speed do you want us to fly' - you will already have been given one by a previous sector (or 'no speed restriction') just keep doing it - HK sector co-ordinate speeds between sectors - if I need to change your assigned speed then I will.
BFN
tolosweetpea
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RRSM
1) $100000 a month and can't support your family?!
how many children do you have?
2) Half an hour early? I thought he was two and a half early!
But I agree with your views of the management, they are a hopeless bunch. The ex chief has gone with heaps of $$ but wait... he's back for more as our chief planner of the new ATC building. Can't get any worse.
HK ATC has a shoe shining culture. The people at the top are not there on merits and the same goes to the "stand by ladies".
1) $100000 a month and can't support your family?!
how many children do you have?2) Half an hour early? I thought he was two and a half early!
But I agree with your views of the management, they are a hopeless bunch. The ex chief has gone with heaps of $$ but wait... he's back for more as our chief planner of the new ATC building. Can't get any worse.
HK ATC has a shoe shining culture. The people at the top are not there on merits and the same goes to the "stand by ladies".
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HK spacing on final is much tighter .... NOT
If a pilot asks APP or Director at 6 mile final if they should go to tower then that pilot wastes the time of the controller and all the others on the frequency. It is an inane question given that there is probably an aircraft ahead still not landed and others behind. If I'd wanted you to go to TWR then I would have transfered you already. Dealing with unneccessay questions breaks my concentration, interferes with my planned RTF calls, wastes RT time (often in short supply at HK). Please stop asking that particular question. I doubt if my US or European equivalent at a busy APP would be any more polite - it is a silly question.
I do not need to be second guessed by crews as often as happens at HK. All tower can say is 'continue approach' (and give wind and RVR etc) - wind and RVR are available on request from APP or Director and will be given in any case where necessay. A/c don't land any quicker if they are on TWR rather than APP. It is my job to provide appropiate spacing on final - where wake is involved this is also a safety issue.
APP and Director do talk with TWR - if we don't put an a/c over to TWR until late then TWR will be asking us for the a/c and/or issuing landing clearance for APP or Director to pass.
HK spacing on final is much tighter than it used to be (min wake if possible) and the APP or director needs the a/c on frequency longer than before to ensure accuracy. The winds on 25 are as tricky for us as they are for pilots. The choice is go to TWR earlier, fly your own speeds, spend longer in the air holding or on vectors - or - stay with APP or Director until transfered, fly the assigned speeds as ops permit, land earlier.
For 69 - take another vist to ATC if possible with an operational controller and not with someone from an HK ATC office post.
The next most silly question to APP/DEP from crews is 'what speed do you want us to fly' - you will already have been given one by a previous sector (or 'no speed restriction') just keep doing it - HK sector co-ordinate speeds between sectors - if I need to change your assigned speed then I will.
BFN
tolosweetpea
I do not need to be second guessed by crews as often as happens at HK. All tower can say is 'continue approach' (and give wind and RVR etc) - wind and RVR are available on request from APP or Director and will be given in any case where necessay. A/c don't land any quicker if they are on TWR rather than APP. It is my job to provide appropiate spacing on final - where wake is involved this is also a safety issue.
APP and Director do talk with TWR - if we don't put an a/c over to TWR until late then TWR will be asking us for the a/c and/or issuing landing clearance for APP or Director to pass.
HK spacing on final is much tighter than it used to be (min wake if possible) and the APP or director needs the a/c on frequency longer than before to ensure accuracy. The winds on 25 are as tricky for us as they are for pilots. The choice is go to TWR earlier, fly your own speeds, spend longer in the air holding or on vectors - or - stay with APP or Director until transfered, fly the assigned speeds as ops permit, land earlier.
For 69 - take another vist to ATC if possible with an operational controller and not with someone from an HK ATC office post.
The next most silly question to APP/DEP from crews is 'what speed do you want us to fly' - you will already have been given one by a previous sector (or 'no speed restriction') just keep doing it - HK sector co-ordinate speeds between sectors - if I need to change your assigned speed then I will.
BFN
tolosweetpea
Who says we doing less than 5 nm?? Totally WRONG! Which part of MATC??You are misleading the flying public!!
STOP DOING LESS THAN 5, until management says YES. Our job in the Tower can be much easier. Sick of APP giving spacing less than minimum wake turbulence ... there may be an accident soon
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Easy fella
I doubt if my US or European equivalent at a busy APP would be any more polite - it is a silly question.
I do not need to be second guessed by crews as often as happens at HK.
APP and Director do talk with TWR - if we don't put an a/c over to TWR until late then TWR will be asking us for the a/c and/or issuing landing clearance for APP or Director to pass.
The next most silly question to APP/DEP from crews is 'what speed do you want us to fly' - you will already have been given one by a previous sector (or 'no speed restriction') just keep doing it - HK sector co-ordinate speeds between sectors - if I need to change your assigned speed then I will.
BFN
tolosweetpea
I do not need to be second guessed by crews as often as happens at HK.
APP and Director do talk with TWR - if we don't put an a/c over to TWR until late then TWR will be asking us for the a/c and/or issuing landing clearance for APP or Director to pass.
The next most silly question to APP/DEP from crews is 'what speed do you want us to fly' - you will already have been given one by a previous sector (or 'no speed restriction') just keep doing it - HK sector co-ordinate speeds between sectors - if I need to change your assigned speed then I will.
BFN
tolosweetpea
Easy sweet pea. Flight crew fly to airports all over the globe (as I am sure you are aware) so rather than saying that something happens far to often, maybe stop and think that there might be a reason ? Most airports transfer a/c on to tower at about the same time ( 1500'-2000' feet on the glide slope) so if you are holding them longer than the norm then you will get questioned as flight crew start to squirm, because guess what ATC occasionally drop the ball too !
Also many flight crew may not have been to Hong Kong in years. They may be tired as well so have a little sypathy as I have for the pressures you are under.
I am not sure that I want to be cleared to land by approach !
Regarding speed restrictions, it happens quite often that you are maintining the speed asked for and getting in to high and hot and want to slow down when all the while the speed was not required. So again the flight crew are getting skittish. maybe the initial speed restriction should have an expected end point ie maintinan 250 to 15 dme...to limes (yeah right ) or something.
Cheers
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You could probably save a lot of RTF by telling us how many track miles to touchdown you are planning for us on first contact so we don't have to guess how tight you are planning to vector us. This is standard practice at LHR and reduces stress levels all round.
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Wake up call, NOMAN!
What is going on at this place ... no leave, heavy workload, low in morale and what not! No discipline, no standard, yeahhhh.The place is in a mess ... poor management. Yes, VERY POOR.
That guy from 4th floor keeps coming up. We see him in the center, see him in the reading room and restroom .... what does he do? I checked - he is in charge of Training, why the s
t is he in the center all the time. ops is not his responsibility .... he thinks he is Mr Everything.And that guy you recently re hired ...... We have a pretty bad center, now we will have a new BAD center
oh no!
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To Carnage
Heathrow is a totally different situation to HK. There is virtually no high terrain around Heathrow, You don't have a "no go" international border as HK does just 3 NM from base leg (for 07); At LHR aircraft can join the LLZ from about 6 miles from touchdown all the way out to God only knows where. Take the SIERRA drop in's for instance, some times it will not be known that this track shortening will be available until you have passed South of Sierra. Quite often it is a quickly agreed shortening after fairly serious co-ordination between (possibly) 4 different/busy terminal area controller's (each with their own requirements), and then it is juggle juggle trying to fit you in. Because this has happened it may mean that other traffic has to be widened out a bit, or even shortened, so where the hell has your great "track miles from touch down" gone to now. The bottom line is: North runway generally for landers, so we can more efficiently release departures; We try to sequence arrivals as close to the required sep minima as possible to have the most expeditious landing sequence; This place is very restricted for aispace usability because of the proximity of Chinese and Macau airspace, and high terrain; and no, it is not more efficient to allow aircraft to "fly the approaches by themselves" as the amount of RTF that would be going on in the speed control department would drive you mad and us mad. It's all pretty simple really, until the Wx turns to c**p.
HKG has an very narrow arrivals gate (particularly for 07) and I have read elsewhere on PPrune, someone suggesting that if crews don't play the correct "speed" game, then we take them out of the sequence. Well, to where? All that does is create a dangerous situation with (often poor English skilled) pilots not knowing what is going on, below the Min Radar Vector alt, and then we have one extra aircraft to later fit in (maybe at the expense of you)! Once an order is set in motion it becomes difficult to change, this is one of the reasons why Runway changes can be so labourious and time consuming.
Much of this stuff has been addressed before, but then I guess you can't be expected to know that.
Heathrow is a totally different situation to HK. There is virtually no high terrain around Heathrow, You don't have a "no go" international border as HK does just 3 NM from base leg (for 07); At LHR aircraft can join the LLZ from about 6 miles from touchdown all the way out to God only knows where. Take the SIERRA drop in's for instance, some times it will not be known that this track shortening will be available until you have passed South of Sierra. Quite often it is a quickly agreed shortening after fairly serious co-ordination between (possibly) 4 different/busy terminal area controller's (each with their own requirements), and then it is juggle juggle trying to fit you in. Because this has happened it may mean that other traffic has to be widened out a bit, or even shortened, so where the hell has your great "track miles from touch down" gone to now. The bottom line is: North runway generally for landers, so we can more efficiently release departures; We try to sequence arrivals as close to the required sep minima as possible to have the most expeditious landing sequence; This place is very restricted for aispace usability because of the proximity of Chinese and Macau airspace, and high terrain; and no, it is not more efficient to allow aircraft to "fly the approaches by themselves" as the amount of RTF that would be going on in the speed control department would drive you mad and us mad. It's all pretty simple really, until the Wx turns to c**p.
HKG has an very narrow arrivals gate (particularly for 07) and I have read elsewhere on PPrune, someone suggesting that if crews don't play the correct "speed" game, then we take them out of the sequence. Well, to where? All that does is create a dangerous situation with (often poor English skilled) pilots not knowing what is going on, below the Min Radar Vector alt, and then we have one extra aircraft to later fit in (maybe at the expense of you)! Once an order is set in motion it becomes difficult to change, this is one of the reasons why Runway changes can be so labourious and time consuming.
Much of this stuff has been addressed before, but then I guess you can't be expected to know that.
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BB
My airlines flights generally land around 1200-1600L in HKG, and certainly on the earlier flights it seems to be pretty quiet around there. My experience of vectoring to 07L seems to be that its a buggers muddle. One day you'll turned in for a tight base leg having to throw every source of drag out just to stay on the profile, the next you'll be vectored miles downwind and end up dragging it in level at 1500ft. Surely by the time people are turning downwind you must have a good idea of how many miles we've got left to go?
My airlines flights generally land around 1200-1600L in HKG, and certainly on the earlier flights it seems to be pretty quiet around there. My experience of vectoring to 07L seems to be that its a buggers muddle. One day you'll turned in for a tight base leg having to throw every source of drag out just to stay on the profile, the next you'll be vectored miles downwind and end up dragging it in level at 1500ft. Surely by the time people are turning downwind you must have a good idea of how many miles we've got left to go?
Cool as a moosp
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Bedder, Thanks for that, the more you ATC'rs get your point of view across to pilots the better (or bedder?) we all are. Our line ops people talk to you, and there is the users meeting every month or so. As line pilots we then get a filtered version of the meetings.
What we need is a kind of FAQ for operators into Hong Kong.
I mean if CX and Dragon pilots on here are not sure of what is best for you , how can the rest of the world have a chance? This is a good informal place to learn what works for you guys and you can hear our bitches, and then neutralise them with the reason why we can't have what we want.
As an aside, flying into CLK the other day with a trough line and CBs that turned our wx radars red like a butchers apron, we got every avoidance we needed and landed after half an hour. It was hard work. My perceptive FO pointed out that radar probably still had another six hours of shift to go with those conditions.
So most of us do appreciate what you do...
What we need is a kind of FAQ for operators into Hong Kong.
I mean if CX and Dragon pilots on here are not sure of what is best for you , how can the rest of the world have a chance? This is a good informal place to learn what works for you guys and you can hear our bitches, and then neutralise them with the reason why we can't have what we want.
As an aside, flying into CLK the other day with a trough line and CBs that turned our wx radars red like a butchers apron, we got every avoidance we needed and landed after half an hour. It was hard work. My perceptive FO pointed out that radar probably still had another six hours of shift to go with those conditions.
So most of us do appreciate what you do...
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Silly question?
If a pilot asks APP or Director at 6 mile final if they should go to tower then that pilot wastes the time of the controller and all the others on the frequency. It is an inane question given that there is probably an aircraft ahead still not landed and others behind. If I'd wanted you to go to TWR then I would have transfered you already. Dealing with unneccessay questions breaks my concentration, interferes with my planned RTF calls, wastes RT time (often in short supply at HK). Please stop asking that particular question. I doubt if my US or European equivalent at a busy APP would be any more polite - it is a silly question.
I do not need to be second guessed by crews as often as happens at HK. All tower can say is 'continue approach' (and give wind and RVR etc) - wind and RVR are available on request from APP or Director and will be given in any case where necessay. A/c don't land any quicker if they are on TWR rather than APP. It is my job to provide appropiate spacing on final - where wake is involved this is also a safety issue.
APP and Director do talk with TWR - if we don't put an a/c over to TWR until late then TWR will be asking us for the a/c and/or issuing landing clearance for APP or Director to pass.
HK spacing on final is much tighter than it used to be (min wake if possible) and the APP or director needs the a/c on frequency longer than before to ensure accuracy. The winds on 25 are as tricky for us as they are for pilots. The choice is go to TWR earlier, fly your own speeds, spend longer in the air holding or on vectors - or - stay with APP or Director until transfered, fly the assigned speeds as ops permit, land earlier.
For 69 - take another vist to ATC if possible with an operational controller and not with someone from an HK ATC office post.
The next most silly question to APP/DEP from crews is 'what speed do you want us to fly' - you will already have been given one by a previous sector (or 'no speed restriction') just keep doing it - HK sector co-ordinate speeds between sectors - if I need to change your assigned speed then I will.
BFN
tolosweetpea
I do not need to be second guessed by crews as often as happens at HK. All tower can say is 'continue approach' (and give wind and RVR etc) - wind and RVR are available on request from APP or Director and will be given in any case where necessay. A/c don't land any quicker if they are on TWR rather than APP. It is my job to provide appropiate spacing on final - where wake is involved this is also a safety issue.
APP and Director do talk with TWR - if we don't put an a/c over to TWR until late then TWR will be asking us for the a/c and/or issuing landing clearance for APP or Director to pass.
HK spacing on final is much tighter than it used to be (min wake if possible) and the APP or director needs the a/c on frequency longer than before to ensure accuracy. The winds on 25 are as tricky for us as they are for pilots. The choice is go to TWR earlier, fly your own speeds, spend longer in the air holding or on vectors - or - stay with APP or Director until transfered, fly the assigned speeds as ops permit, land earlier.
For 69 - take another vist to ATC if possible with an operational controller and not with someone from an HK ATC office post.
The next most silly question to APP/DEP from crews is 'what speed do you want us to fly' - you will already have been given one by a previous sector (or 'no speed restriction') just keep doing it - HK sector co-ordinate speeds between sectors - if I need to change your assigned speed then I will.
BFN
tolosweetpea
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Hi Carnage (Good Nom de Plume)
You are being too general. One day at 12.30 it can be quiet, and the next it can be chaos. If, (as most of the time when it is "quiet") you are passing SIERA and given a turn for obvious track shortening, then knock it back. Do the whole STAR and your FMC will be able to tell you how many track miles you have to go....probably about 80 I would say. I have the sneeking impression that you fly for "The airline". Well it just so happens that we notice that you people are notorious for landing long (on 07L) to your E gates on the North apron. I will offer this to you until the cows come home ...if it is available, but when your lot take liberties that inconvenience others, then the next time it might not be offered. I am not trying to tell you for one second that everything that happens with HK ATC is good, or can be justified in every circumstance, at times we have a lot to answer for, but as the ratio of crews operating into here that have poor English skills increase, well I can assure you that our workload will increase and the nicities will gradually fade away.
For you to post here "At Heathrow blah blah blah..." is like me posting to you "At Cathay blah, blah, blah..." It is irrelevant. We have a system with a big mix of expats from all over the place (including ex EGLL) and an increasing number of low experience locals. Most of the time people are trying their best under the circumstances. Let's face it "track miles to run" is at best an (educated) guess on our part, and can be reasonably well figured out by you people using the resources that you have at hand... your experience; the runway in use; your NAV display; where you are being vectored to; listening to what you think will be the next aircraft ahead; your TCAS; fighting with your F/O...etc.
Not trying to dismiss your query, it's all relevant, however, you really need to consider both sides of the story. Operating a large heavy jet with other traffic can have it's frustrations, but you just have to live with it. As I said in a previous post, one of our tasks is to align the traffic flow in a reasonably sane order to land given wake turbulence and other considerations, and it becomes "juggle juggle" to a certain extent. You might want "track miles to run" (at SIERA) but if we are on 25R you will pass through the hands of 4 controllers before you call the Tower, and not each has the time to try and second guess what the other is going to do with you. So as I said above, we can only come up with an eduated guess with track miles, which as often as not will be no more accurate that what you yourself can figure out in the cockpit.
Hi Moosp, thanks for the (as usual) kind words. You are correct, some sort of dialogue would be useful, but I think for the time being we will have to annonymously "PPrune" it. I do think that "pilots visiting ATC" with useful periods of interface would be good, but trying to get our management to provide the resources required is an issue. It's unfortunate that access to the centre/tower is pretty restrictive, that will remain a problem. As for the talks between your "line ops" and "you", I guess you mean our management. We rarely get feedback from that. What is needed is for line pilots (say groups of 5) to have the opportunity to come and plug in for a couple of hours. I don't know what sort of interest there would be. With CX pilots being scattered all over the World doesn't help, but I guess slots could be reserved for those staying at the Headland on layovers....KA guys are more "local" ....just thoughts!
You are being too general. One day at 12.30 it can be quiet, and the next it can be chaos. If, (as most of the time when it is "quiet") you are passing SIERA and given a turn for obvious track shortening, then knock it back. Do the whole STAR and your FMC will be able to tell you how many track miles you have to go....probably about 80 I would say. I have the sneeking impression that you fly for "The airline". Well it just so happens that we notice that you people are notorious for landing long (on 07L) to your E gates on the North apron. I will offer this to you until the cows come home ...if it is available, but when your lot take liberties that inconvenience others, then the next time it might not be offered. I am not trying to tell you for one second that everything that happens with HK ATC is good, or can be justified in every circumstance, at times we have a lot to answer for, but as the ratio of crews operating into here that have poor English skills increase, well I can assure you that our workload will increase and the nicities will gradually fade away.
For you to post here "At Heathrow blah blah blah..." is like me posting to you "At Cathay blah, blah, blah..." It is irrelevant. We have a system with a big mix of expats from all over the place (including ex EGLL) and an increasing number of low experience locals. Most of the time people are trying their best under the circumstances. Let's face it "track miles to run" is at best an (educated) guess on our part, and can be reasonably well figured out by you people using the resources that you have at hand... your experience; the runway in use; your NAV display; where you are being vectored to; listening to what you think will be the next aircraft ahead; your TCAS; fighting with your F/O...etc.
Not trying to dismiss your query, it's all relevant, however, you really need to consider both sides of the story. Operating a large heavy jet with other traffic can have it's frustrations, but you just have to live with it. As I said in a previous post, one of our tasks is to align the traffic flow in a reasonably sane order to land given wake turbulence and other considerations, and it becomes "juggle juggle" to a certain extent. You might want "track miles to run" (at SIERA) but if we are on 25R you will pass through the hands of 4 controllers before you call the Tower, and not each has the time to try and second guess what the other is going to do with you. So as I said above, we can only come up with an eduated guess with track miles, which as often as not will be no more accurate that what you yourself can figure out in the cockpit.
Hi Moosp, thanks for the (as usual) kind words. You are correct, some sort of dialogue would be useful, but I think for the time being we will have to annonymously "PPrune" it. I do think that "pilots visiting ATC" with useful periods of interface would be good, but trying to get our management to provide the resources required is an issue. It's unfortunate that access to the centre/tower is pretty restrictive, that will remain a problem. As for the talks between your "line ops" and "you", I guess you mean our management. We rarely get feedback from that. What is needed is for line pilots (say groups of 5) to have the opportunity to come and plug in for a couple of hours. I don't know what sort of interest there would be. With CX pilots being scattered all over the World doesn't help, but I guess slots could be reserved for those staying at the Headland on layovers....KA guys are more "local" ....just thoughts!
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Easy :-)
Easy sweet pea. Flight crew fly to airports all over the globe (as I am sure you are aware) so rather than saying that something happens far to often, maybe stop and think that there might be a reason ? Most airports transfer a/c on to tower at about the same time ( 1500'-2000' feet on the glide slope) so if you are holding them longer than the norm then you will get questioned as flight crew start to squirm, because guess what ATC occasionally drop the ball too !
Also many flight crew may not have been to Hong Kong in years. They may be tired as well so have a little sypathy as I have for the pressures you are under.
I am not sure that I want to be cleared to land by approach !
Regarding speed restrictions, it happens quite often that you are maintining the speed asked for and getting in to high and hot and want to slow down when all the while the speed was not required. So again the flight crew are getting skittish. maybe the initial speed restriction should have an expected end point ie maintinan 250 to 15 dme...to limes (yeah right ) or something.
Cheers
Also many flight crew may not have been to Hong Kong in years. They may be tired as well so have a little sypathy as I have for the pressures you are under.
I am not sure that I want to be cleared to land by approach !
Regarding speed restrictions, it happens quite often that you are maintining the speed asked for and getting in to high and hot and want to slow down when all the while the speed was not required. So again the flight crew are getting skittish. maybe the initial speed restriction should have an expected end point ie maintinan 250 to 15 dme...to limes (yeah right ) or something.
Cheers
A better way for 69 or other crews to go is to state their callsign and distance from touch down - this avoids a loaded question and sticks to the facts. It also leads the controller to a simple - but not necessarily pleasurable:-) '... roger' as a suitable reply or to assess the separation and transfer to TWR if appropriate. Sometimes the way we say a thing makes a big difference. And added advantage is it allows a cross check between navaid, radar, nav equip on the range from touchdown.
If APP issue a landing clearance they do it on ADC's behalf - ADC will have applied the same criteria to their decision as they would if they passed it directly to the a/c themselves and then told APP - who then pass it to the a/c for ADC. I can't see a problem with that - it must surely be better than a late freq change and rushed clearance. Many clearances are passed on behalf of others in all ATC systems everywhere all the time - for example when crossing FIR or ATC sector boundaries a/c do it on a clearance from the receiving FIR or sector but passed by the transferring sector. If you have and emergency then APP keeping you will avoid a freq change when your workload is high. In bad wx with many missed approaches keeping a/c and passing landing clearances may also be the better way the manage the traffic.
I can only speak for myself on the speeds - I avoid hot high and issue appropriate speeds based on many years of ATC experience here and abroad. I base my final issued speed on the published procedural approach speeds and don't issue speeds above 210 that would apply on the glide. I have witnessed some of the less experienced ATC here issuing inappropriate speeds and I'm with you regarding that. But sometimes I do get it wrong or can't get in to make a change in time - I'm human like us all.
tolosweetpea
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MATC
Who says we doing less than 5 nm?? Totally WRONG! Which part of MATC??
You are misleading the flying public!!
STOP DOING LESS THAN 5, until management says YES. Our job in the Tower can be much easier. Sick of APP giving spacing less than minimum wake turbulence ... there may be an accident soon
You are misleading the flying public!!
STOP DOING LESS THAN 5, until management says YES. Our job in the Tower can be much easier. Sick of APP giving spacing less than minimum wake turbulence ... there may be an accident soon
I did not suggest that APP should ever provide less than the minimum separation and I don't. Your post is inaccurate and what has 'accident' to do with what I'd said earlier? If ICAO says that 3nm is safe between two mediums why should it be different here at HK - the laws of physics apply here the same at they do elsewhere in our current understanding of reality.
The 4th floor should however be explaining the the airlines why (and for years) arriving a/c have been delayed by vector, speed, and holding to supply extra spacing (not separation). For what reasons? Just what are ADC doing with the runway during this time?
It is not a safety issue in normal operating conditions - can be for some wx and runway mixes so we then use appropriate separation and procedures in those cases. Speak to the 4th floor APP guys - I hear that they have been tacitly and in fact specifically face to face approving min wake for the last two years - it is safe and expeditious to use appropriate international standard separations used all around the world. ATC must be safe, orderly, and expeditious - all three parts are required before we can say that we have done a good job (Safety having the highest priority and made a given in any situation).
HK has a final director now. HK has published reduced runway separation procedures - these are in place so that the unit can move to using all it's runway capacity. Slots have been and are limited at HK by CAD without compelling technical reasons.
I'm not tired today so you got the printable version of the reply:-)
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miles to go
BB
My airlines flights generally land around 1200-1600L in HKG, and certainly on the earlier flights it seems to be pretty quiet around there. My experience of vectoring to 07L seems to be that its a buggers muddle. One day you'll turned in for a tight base leg having to throw every source of drag out just to stay on the profile, the next you'll be vectored miles downwind and end up dragging it in level at 1500ft. Surely by the time people are turning downwind you must have a good idea of how many miles we've got left to go?
My airlines flights generally land around 1200-1600L in HKG, and certainly on the earlier flights it seems to be pretty quiet around there. My experience of vectoring to 07L seems to be that its a buggers muddle. One day you'll turned in for a tight base leg having to throw every source of drag out just to stay on the profile, the next you'll be vectored miles downwind and end up dragging it in level at 1500ft. Surely by the time people are turning downwind you must have a good idea of how many miles we've got left to go?
BFN
tolosweetpea
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Totally concur with moosp. We really appreciate the great job you guys do. I think it should be part of our formal training to understand what ATC is about. Not just learn it from anonymous websites like this.
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Bedder,
Am I right in thinking back that there are holds at Soko and TD?.If there were would they help.Get the inbounds holding closer in and run the outbounds out underneath.
Also what is the minimum radar spacing.Have you got 3 miles,or 5 miles.TAD
Ps
Oh and how much is a DB dinky,sorry golf cart.I want to soup one up with a model aircraft engine.
Am I right in thinking back that there are holds at Soko and TD?.If there were would they help.Get the inbounds holding closer in and run the outbounds out underneath.
Also what is the minimum radar spacing.Have you got 3 miles,or 5 miles.TAD
Ps
Oh and how much is a DB dinky,sorry golf cart.I want to soup one up with a model aircraft engine.
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If a pilot asks APP or Director at 6 mile final if they should go to tower then that pilot wastes the time of the controller and all the others on the frequency. It is an inane question given that there is probably an aircraft ahead still not landed and others behind. If I'd wanted you to go to TWR then I would have transfered you already. Dealing with unneccessay questions breaks my concentration, interferes with my planned RTF calls, wastes RT time (often in short supply at HK). Please stop asking that particular question. I doubt if my US or European equivalent at a busy APP would be any more polite - it is a silly question.
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Last time I checked, the top of ATCO II had been cut by $10,000 a month to less than 3/4 of that.
Dragon69
Its certainly not uncommon for aircraft elsewhere to be told to call the Tower at the outer marker i.e. under 4NM.
With HK operating a much higher % mix of Heavy than any of the airports you mention, the compression factor on final becomes critical for wake turbulence sep. Holding a/c on APP freq until 5NM is certainly no big deal.
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<<Staying on APP freq at 6 miles is just as silly as me asking whether we need to be on Tower freq. At 6 miles I am on the LANDING phase not the APPROACH phase.>>
I only just saw this thread.. all very sad. However, to Dragon69... your perspective of the situation may vary greatly with that of ATC. There is nothing remotely unusual about an aircraft still talking to Approach at 6nm. I spent 31 years as a Heathrow Radar Contoller and kept thousands of aircraft until that ranage, and well inside that sometimes. Under certain conditions, eg SRAs, Visual Approaches, APP may retain control until much later on final, even until after touchdown. Technically, radar may be responsible for spacing on final approach and not the tower so it is entirely up to the controller and not you when he transfers you to the tower.
I only just saw this thread.. all very sad. However, to Dragon69... your perspective of the situation may vary greatly with that of ATC. There is nothing remotely unusual about an aircraft still talking to Approach at 6nm. I spent 31 years as a Heathrow Radar Contoller and kept thousands of aircraft until that ranage, and well inside that sometimes. Under certain conditions, eg SRAs, Visual Approaches, APP may retain control until much later on final, even until after touchdown. Technically, radar may be responsible for spacing on final approach and not the tower so it is entirely up to the controller and not you when he transfers you to the tower.
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HD,
I still think that SRA's and Visuals are big ''Cannot'' in HK.They had a new high definition radar for parallel approaches,but I don't think it's been used,and certainly not for SRA's.The Airport can be seen from space,but visuals were strickly out.How did they land?? Flight checking seemed every 2 weeks,and they withdraw the aid from use prior to it.Why? 10 bucks
I'm afraid as a Nats trained controller,the way things are done in HK are strange.Blue strips for inbounds,buff for outbounds. 
You have to forget how to shift traffic,turn your training on it's head,and don't F up.No union to back you up,and a management you will blame you even if you're on leave.They roster you on extra days,for days leave,then rob you of the TOIL.
It's ATC JIM,but not as we know it.
I agree that there is nothing wrong with a/c on radar frequency inside 6 miles as well.
I still think that SRA's and Visuals are big ''Cannot'' in HK.They had a new high definition radar for parallel approaches,but I don't think it's been used,and certainly not for SRA's.The Airport can be seen from space,but visuals were strickly out.How did they land?? Flight checking seemed every 2 weeks,and they withdraw the aid from use prior to it.Why? 10 bucks
I'm afraid as a Nats trained controller,the way things are done in HK are strange.Blue strips for inbounds,buff for outbounds.
You have to forget how to shift traffic,turn your training on it's head,and don't F up.No union to back you up,and a management you will blame you even if you're on leave.They roster you on extra days,for days leave,then rob you of the TOIL.It's ATC JIM,but not as we know it.
I agree that there is nothing wrong with a/c on radar frequency inside 6 miles as well.