so what about the ban
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: The Fragrant Harbour
Age: 49
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
frankg
thats all very well, not take the job and make Cathay this fantastic company again and then spend the rest of ones life wishing they could fly for them.....You dont seem to get it, saying no once having recieved a yes letter is finite, no second chances.
Where do you suggest i fulfil my life time dream.
Bans are designed to protect staff that are currently striking or hurting the company by action, neither of these things are currently being done. Please dont tell me about work to rule, isnt that what people are meant to do and are expected to do by the company. All this ban does is use people you dont know or care about to do your dirty work so you can carry on working and one day your problems are fixed without you having to risk anything. (pity there are a aweful lot of pilots out there who are willing to take the job regardless, 6 in my crewroom today for example)
You expect us to sacrifice our careers for the job, so why dont all 1200 AOA members not turn up to work on monday. You have as much to lose as us ALPA guys sitting on yes letters..... thats why....
thats all very well, not take the job and make Cathay this fantastic company again and then spend the rest of ones life wishing they could fly for them.....You dont seem to get it, saying no once having recieved a yes letter is finite, no second chances.
Where do you suggest i fulfil my life time dream.
Bans are designed to protect staff that are currently striking or hurting the company by action, neither of these things are currently being done. Please dont tell me about work to rule, isnt that what people are meant to do and are expected to do by the company. All this ban does is use people you dont know or care about to do your dirty work so you can carry on working and one day your problems are fixed without you having to risk anything. (pity there are a aweful lot of pilots out there who are willing to take the job regardless, 6 in my crewroom today for example)
You expect us to sacrifice our careers for the job, so why dont all 1200 AOA members not turn up to work on monday. You have as much to lose as us ALPA guys sitting on yes letters..... thats why....
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: The Fragrant Harbour
Age: 49
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have talked to a whole bunch of guys that have joined in the last 5 years, they love it, they also told me to start ban or no ban.
I have also contacted IFALPA, the people i have spoken to disagree with the ban and are wholeheartedly sick of it but the constitution prevents them doing anything about it.
You still havnt suggested any alternatives
I have also contacted IFALPA, the people i have spoken to disagree with the ban and are wholeheartedly sick of it but the constitution prevents them doing anything about it.
You still havnt suggested any alternatives
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: the rez
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From another forum:
In answer to your query regarding those who have taken upgrades. The AOA has never had an upgrade ban, nor will it. Here's why:
Recruitment bans - will never stop new recruits from coming - but they're not meant to. They are enacted to make it difficult for the company to attract quality recruits. It also creates a friction that, despite what you may think, the company does not want on its property. It is, in fact, a burr beneath their saddle.
Upgrade bans - will never stop some crew from accepting upgrades. They would create divisiveness within our own ranks, and print a license for the company to ignore agreements, direct-hire captains and promote out of seniority. It is, in fact, a burr beneath OUR saddle.
Though once considered and debated (as the GC will do with most industrial suggestions), representatives from IFALPA, APA and ALPA all strongly recommend against upgrade bans. Their recommendation is the result of 80 years of airline labour history and the evidence is clear.
And the best reason yet not to impose an upgrade ban comes from the DFO. While bemoaning the effects of the recruitment ban, he taunted the AOA to avoid hypocrisy and invoke an internal ban - and remember that Uncle Ken is not competent to write his own missives, so where do you think that little suggestion came from?...
Recruitment bans - will never stop new recruits from coming - but they're not meant to. They are enacted to make it difficult for the company to attract quality recruits. It also creates a friction that, despite what you may think, the company does not want on its property. It is, in fact, a burr beneath their saddle.
Upgrade bans - will never stop some crew from accepting upgrades. They would create divisiveness within our own ranks, and print a license for the company to ignore agreements, direct-hire captains and promote out of seniority. It is, in fact, a burr beneath OUR saddle.
Though once considered and debated (as the GC will do with most industrial suggestions), representatives from IFALPA, APA and ALPA all strongly recommend against upgrade bans. Their recommendation is the result of 80 years of airline labour history and the evidence is clear.
And the best reason yet not to impose an upgrade ban comes from the DFO. While bemoaning the effects of the recruitment ban, he taunted the AOA to avoid hypocrisy and invoke an internal ban - and remember that Uncle Ken is not competent to write his own missives, so where do you think that little suggestion came from?...
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes indeed, Frankie, here you all sit and the company calls the shots. It "could" have been MUCH different if you'all had followed my advice....too late now...sadly.
When WILL the turkeys listen, I wonder?
New recruits...here they come...end of an era.
Management WINS again.
Anyone awake?
When WILL the turkeys listen, I wonder?
New recruits...here they come...end of an era.
Management WINS again.
Anyone awake?
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: To: From: To: From:
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well Frankie.....and ignoring Kubota, the cheap tractor....your "leadership" should have contacted ALPA in Washington DC a long time ago (and actually listened), as I suggested. They have the "muscle" to help your struggle, but suspect that your "leadership" had better(?) ideas. Too late now.....the company now has you'all by the short and curlys....
You CANNOT wind the clock back.....the gravy train is O V E R...
Over.
You CANNOT wind the clock back.....the gravy train is O V E R...
Over.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah yes, a long time ago...and the camels nose in the tent was the...."B" scale...you and your buddies should have seen the writing on the wall...at that time...now too late.
Now the "B" scale has trickled down to nearly everyone...with the result that your "difficulties" will not go away anytime soon.
Salaries for flight crew have been on a downtrend (except generally in the USA) for a long time now...CX is not the first and will not be the last by any means.
Recall when I left SQ in the early eighties, the local troops there wanted a "union"...and just look how far they have gotten...pi@@ing into a typhoon would have better results.
Be happy as a contract pilot, after all, things could be a lot worse.
Now the "B" scale has trickled down to nearly everyone...with the result that your "difficulties" will not go away anytime soon.
Salaries for flight crew have been on a downtrend (except generally in the USA) for a long time now...CX is not the first and will not be the last by any means.
Recall when I left SQ in the early eighties, the local troops there wanted a "union"...and just look how far they have gotten...pi@@ing into a typhoon would have better results.
Be happy as a contract pilot, after all, things could be a lot worse.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well there bigus....
The last laugh will be from CX management as they roll over the flight crews...and the sad fact is it could have all been avoided IF only the expat crews would consider that the "old" days are over, dead and buried...and also sad that they did not see fit to include LOCAL guys sooner.
Of course they will say....but none were available or interested...hmmm, well if this was the case then SQ would not have found ANY local guys....seem to remember that there were many not only from Singapore but from Malaysia...still local guys.
The OLD BOYS CLUB has died a natural death.
The truth....hurts...doesn't it?
The last laugh will be from CX management as they roll over the flight crews...and the sad fact is it could have all been avoided IF only the expat crews would consider that the "old" days are over, dead and buried...and also sad that they did not see fit to include LOCAL guys sooner.
Of course they will say....but none were available or interested...hmmm, well if this was the case then SQ would not have found ANY local guys....seem to remember that there were many not only from Singapore but from Malaysia...still local guys.
The OLD BOYS CLUB has died a natural death.
The truth....hurts...doesn't it?
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: All over the show like a madwomans crap
Posts: 494
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wilfred,
In your post you contradict yourself by saying that I AM showing solidarity to my sacked collegues (see below) and then NOT showing solidarity to the worldwide pilot fraternity because of the ban not allowing them to take their dream job. How could I do both? Do you think that the pilots taking positions under the ban are showing solidarity to anyone? One of IFALPA's aims is to promote worldwide solidarity, and if more pilots showed solidarity, then the industry would be a better place for it. We are our own worst ememy, because there is always someone who, to get in, will do the job for less. This undermines the industry as a whole. Unfortunately, management knows this only to well.
As for curtailing and damaging careers, that is not what I am doing, but what the individual who takes a job under a ban does to themself.
And for me, as you obviously have no idea who I am, you can't be blamed for your comments about me "asking folks with alot less than me to risk alot more than me." I am not a CX pilot, however, someone near and dear to me is. We have to commute to see each other, and this depends on standby travel, which as you may know, can be dodgy at times. We can go a month at a time and not see each other and then maybe only for 3 or 4 days. I have applied to CX, but won't be going until the ban is over, even though this would make our own personal lives so much better and easier. We are both sacrificing alot more than the ones who would disregard the ban for their own personal gain, at the expense of those who have some intergrity.
Nosey
In your post you contradict yourself by saying that I AM showing solidarity to my sacked collegues (see below) and then NOT showing solidarity to the worldwide pilot fraternity because of the ban not allowing them to take their dream job. How could I do both? Do you think that the pilots taking positions under the ban are showing solidarity to anyone? One of IFALPA's aims is to promote worldwide solidarity, and if more pilots showed solidarity, then the industry would be a better place for it. We are our own worst ememy, because there is always someone who, to get in, will do the job for less. This undermines the industry as a whole. Unfortunately, management knows this only to well.
As for curtailing and damaging careers, that is not what I am doing, but what the individual who takes a job under a ban does to themself.
And for me, as you obviously have no idea who I am, you can't be blamed for your comments about me "asking folks with alot less than me to risk alot more than me." I am not a CX pilot, however, someone near and dear to me is. We have to commute to see each other, and this depends on standby travel, which as you may know, can be dodgy at times. We can go a month at a time and not see each other and then maybe only for 3 or 4 days. I have applied to CX, but won't be going until the ban is over, even though this would make our own personal lives so much better and easier. We are both sacrificing alot more than the ones who would disregard the ban for their own personal gain, at the expense of those who have some intergrity.
Nosey
Last edited by NoseGear; 26th Apr 2002 at 04:28.
Join Date: Aug 1998
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just in case anyone is any doubt. The words of Captain Ted Murphy, IFALPA Predsident. Go to the AOA News Network icon/link for a taped interview with Him.
http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/default.htm
Listen very, very carefully.
J/S
http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/default.htm
Listen very, very carefully.
J/S
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Trinidad
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The CX band
411A
Give it to them in there ass, you speak good, I like the way you explain and reply to the CX subject.
The days of Boys club is over, this is 2002 no company is going to put up with ****.
Give it to them in there ass, you speak good, I like the way you explain and reply to the CX subject.
The days of Boys club is over, this is 2002 no company is going to put up with ****.
I think the "49ers" got screwed. I think they were canon foder in a wider war. I think it is a discrace.
That being said, the problem with the recruitment ban is that it simply wont work.
There will always be enough qualified pilots willing to work under these conditions.They will take the jobs while the guys who SUPPORT you get their carreer aspirations troden on. It's easy to dictate the rights and wrongs once you're behind is in an airline seat, but the fact is, desperate GA guys will find the prospect of an Airline job irresistable.
So what does the ban achieve?
Well, it gives you a convienent band of scapegoats. "We would have got the 49ers jobs back except for you bastards".
It also gives the company a group it KNOWS will always support it ahead of the union (after all, these guys have joined knowing the union hates them.)
So, divide and concour. It worked a treat for Air New Zealand.
My advice? Forget the ban. Let guys who are your allies and will join and support your association join the airline, THEN launch industrial action from a position of strength.
Your current course will only lead to division and failure.
Which would you rather...Moral victory, or REAL progress?
That being said, the problem with the recruitment ban is that it simply wont work.
There will always be enough qualified pilots willing to work under these conditions.They will take the jobs while the guys who SUPPORT you get their carreer aspirations troden on. It's easy to dictate the rights and wrongs once you're behind is in an airline seat, but the fact is, desperate GA guys will find the prospect of an Airline job irresistable.
So what does the ban achieve?
Well, it gives you a convienent band of scapegoats. "We would have got the 49ers jobs back except for you bastards".
It also gives the company a group it KNOWS will always support it ahead of the union (after all, these guys have joined knowing the union hates them.)
So, divide and concour. It worked a treat for Air New Zealand.
My advice? Forget the ban. Let guys who are your allies and will join and support your association join the airline, THEN launch industrial action from a position of strength.
Your current course will only lead to division and failure.
Which would you rather...Moral victory, or REAL progress?
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: England
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nosegear
no contradiction, as I explained that the ban adversely affects any other pilot in the world who wants to join Cathay. The question is whether I can justify this statement. I'll have a stab.
To ask someone to sacrifice something in order to show support for you and lend weight to your argument is fine if you yourself are willing to make the same, or similar, sacrifice yourself. In this instance, and due to the rather one-sided labour laws in HK, this has not been possible.
By imposing a ban on employment, the AOA is asking anyone with aspirations to join Cathay to put those aspirations on hold. A position in which you find yourself, and one in which you feel happy to oblige. However, ther are numerous people who had started their Cathay application long before the ban was even heard of, and long before the 49ers were sacked. Some of those have been successful, and are awaiting the job offer. A friend of mine from your neck of the woods even had the letter telling him that he had been successful before the maximum safety initiative was instituted. If he gets the letter offering him the job that he worked his socks off for, the AOA is asking him to say no.
Whether or not he takes the offer is for him to decide. He has a wife and family just like those that were dismissed. There will likely be many others in his position of being caught between the trenches. Some of them will take the view that life would be made too unbearable by some the current pilot workforce, and turn down the offer, thus ending their chances of a career with Cathay. IMHO that constitutes curtailing or damaging someones career, and it only takes one person to be so adversely affected to make the ban insupportable. Potentially damaging the careers of people you do not know, to protect, or in this case reinstate, the careers of those you do know, does not seem to me to be promoting worldwide pilot solidarity.
no contradiction, as I explained that the ban adversely affects any other pilot in the world who wants to join Cathay. The question is whether I can justify this statement. I'll have a stab.
To ask someone to sacrifice something in order to show support for you and lend weight to your argument is fine if you yourself are willing to make the same, or similar, sacrifice yourself. In this instance, and due to the rather one-sided labour laws in HK, this has not been possible.
By imposing a ban on employment, the AOA is asking anyone with aspirations to join Cathay to put those aspirations on hold. A position in which you find yourself, and one in which you feel happy to oblige. However, ther are numerous people who had started their Cathay application long before the ban was even heard of, and long before the 49ers were sacked. Some of those have been successful, and are awaiting the job offer. A friend of mine from your neck of the woods even had the letter telling him that he had been successful before the maximum safety initiative was instituted. If he gets the letter offering him the job that he worked his socks off for, the AOA is asking him to say no.
Whether or not he takes the offer is for him to decide. He has a wife and family just like those that were dismissed. There will likely be many others in his position of being caught between the trenches. Some of them will take the view that life would be made too unbearable by some the current pilot workforce, and turn down the offer, thus ending their chances of a career with Cathay. IMHO that constitutes curtailing or damaging someones career, and it only takes one person to be so adversely affected to make the ban insupportable. Potentially damaging the careers of people you do not know, to protect, or in this case reinstate, the careers of those you do know, does not seem to me to be promoting worldwide pilot solidarity.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gosh...even in Trinidad some can see the nonsense of it all....the old boys club has beed derailed.
And yet, still not many LOCAL guys. Maybe they are not good enough for the "old boys"....I wonder why? Perhaps someone from the "other side" would care to comment.
Oh, I forgot, that was tried before....and NO logical explanation was forthcomming.
And yet, still not many LOCAL guys. Maybe they are not good enough for the "old boys"....I wonder why? Perhaps someone from the "other side" would care to comment.
Oh, I forgot, that was tried before....and NO logical explanation was forthcomming.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well then Kubota...as you care to comment...what happened to the local guys? Why actually are there not more in the system?
We wait with eager anticipation for your learnered answer.
We wait with eager anticipation for your learnered answer.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: All over the show like a madwomans crap
Posts: 494
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wilfred, well put, I quess we just see things from slightly different angles, and I can see and appreciate where you are coming from.
Cordy, get off the fence. You say you wish the 49er's luck, and that you don't want to be a scab as you would love to go to CX, then you tell Mr Anti CX, 411A to give it to them in the ass. Nice, mature statement that one. Come back when you can make a contribution.
411a, can you explain your burning desire to see more locals in CX? The local population do not regard a career as a pilot very highly, they see it as a non prestigious career choice. Having said that, CX has lately taken employees with a desire to fly and put them thru cadetships. Not many airlines have such a scholarship scheme that I am aware of. Another question, do you employ local pilots with you Tristar operation in Asia? If not , why not?
Nosey
Cordy, get off the fence. You say you wish the 49er's luck, and that you don't want to be a scab as you would love to go to CX, then you tell Mr Anti CX, 411A to give it to them in the ass. Nice, mature statement that one. Come back when you can make a contribution.
411a, can you explain your burning desire to see more locals in CX? The local population do not regard a career as a pilot very highly, they see it as a non prestigious career choice. Having said that, CX has lately taken employees with a desire to fly and put them thru cadetships. Not many airlines have such a scholarship scheme that I am aware of. Another question, do you employ local pilots with you Tristar operation in Asia? If not , why not?
Nosey
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well NoseGear, SQ had the cadet program as far back as 1975, with local guys going thru constantly. Wonder why it has taken CX so long to start? And to answer your question, yes all of the line pilots will be local guys.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Gods Country
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's worth remembering that 411a is like a weak version of the Guvnor. Just imagine if you were going to start up an airline in SE Asia, using what would appear to be local slave labor, and you had CX in your back yard. Wouldn't you try to stir up as much trouble as possible within your major competitor? (Compettitor that is if and when 411a's pipe dream becomes reality).
Furthermore, if (as in the Freight Dogs Forum), you saw this competitor reorganizing to use 757/A300 new(ish) aircraft to compete throughout Asia with your gas guzzling old wrecks, using 2 pilots not 3, with the oil price at 25 dollars and the OECD seeing it staying there, wouldn't you be doing just what 411a does.......?
Furthermore, if (as in the Freight Dogs Forum), you saw this competitor reorganizing to use 757/A300 new(ish) aircraft to compete throughout Asia with your gas guzzling old wrecks, using 2 pilots not 3, with the oil price at 25 dollars and the OECD seeing it staying there, wouldn't you be doing just what 411a does.......?