Wake-Up
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Wake-Up
All this talk about "lets do it" ... "unite"..."Sick-outs" ought to stop right now. Does any one who posted such remarks actually know what its like to be unemployed? Or even... know whether he or she would be able to get a job else where? Or how much pay he or she might get... Wake up and be grateful that you have the best jobs in the world with the best pay and conditions. STOP NAGGING remember 1989 down under.
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It's exactly this kind of attitude that has allowed our conditions to deteriorate to the state that we presently find them. If we had taken a firm stance a long time ago, we would not be in this sorry mess today.
This used to be one of the best jobs in the world, that is no longer true. So either you are management, or incredibly naive. Sometimes you have to fight to keep what you believe in.
You keep harping back to 89 down under, the conditions are not the same, but this management is banking that there are enough people with your attitude to keep a core operation going no matter what, and therein lies our major problem. Let me ask you, did you find something else after your dispute? obviously or you wouldn't be posting. Personally I'm at the stage where I don't care any more if I have a job or not. This one ain't what it used to be.
This used to be one of the best jobs in the world, that is no longer true. So either you are management, or incredibly naive. Sometimes you have to fight to keep what you believe in.
You keep harping back to 89 down under, the conditions are not the same, but this management is banking that there are enough people with your attitude to keep a core operation going no matter what, and therein lies our major problem. Let me ask you, did you find something else after your dispute? obviously or you wouldn't be posting. Personally I'm at the stage where I don't care any more if I have a job or not. This one ain't what it used to be.
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I have to agree with you Ace.
Next time they try to cut my pay by 30% I'll remind myself to stop nagging.
Next time they bring in a system of no credit for work that takes me away from my family, I'll tell myself to stop nagging.
Next time they bring in a cheap cargo operation that undermines the careers of pilots that have upsticks and settled in HK on the basis of an offer that's not honoured, I'll remind myself to stop nagging.
Next time a senior company director insults me and my colleagues in public, I'll remember to stop nagging.
Next time.......
Well thought out post Ace, Merry Xmas.
J/s
PS tell me when it's ok to start nagging.
Next time they try to cut my pay by 30% I'll remind myself to stop nagging.
Next time they bring in a system of no credit for work that takes me away from my family, I'll tell myself to stop nagging.
Next time they bring in a cheap cargo operation that undermines the careers of pilots that have upsticks and settled in HK on the basis of an offer that's not honoured, I'll remind myself to stop nagging.
Next time a senior company director insults me and my colleagues in public, I'll remember to stop nagging.
Next time.......
Well thought out post Ace, Merry Xmas.
J/s
PS tell me when it's ok to start nagging.
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"Best jobs in the world with the best pay and conditions" ......BusAce (which I doubt) are we talking about the same airline? Shouldn't you be in the North American forum?
I take it this must be your first real job besides your first real post. Don't be scared of returning to where you have crawled from because that won't happen. You now work for a "top shelf airline" (almost) so forget your past. If you want to remain on the top shelf and get back to where we USED to be we need to stick together.
My first thought was to agree with nudger's comment but I guess anyone is able to make a mistake. You need to listen more to those that have been around a while and see through the company propaganda.
While being charitable, it's really sad what you have posted. If you are one of us and a CX pilot it's shocking what you write. Most of us won't bend over any more. You may find yourself in the despised minority if not careful.
I posted "lets do it" and I do know what it is to be unemployed. I won't be again and these bullies that we call management won't have the balls to make me!
Show some guts.
[This message has been edited by Thrust (edited 23 December 2000).]
I take it this must be your first real job besides your first real post. Don't be scared of returning to where you have crawled from because that won't happen. You now work for a "top shelf airline" (almost) so forget your past. If you want to remain on the top shelf and get back to where we USED to be we need to stick together.
My first thought was to agree with nudger's comment but I guess anyone is able to make a mistake. You need to listen more to those that have been around a while and see through the company propaganda.
While being charitable, it's really sad what you have posted. If you are one of us and a CX pilot it's shocking what you write. Most of us won't bend over any more. You may find yourself in the despised minority if not careful.
I posted "lets do it" and I do know what it is to be unemployed. I won't be again and these bullies that we call management won't have the balls to make me!
Show some guts.
[This message has been edited by Thrust (edited 23 December 2000).]
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As anticipated, no constructive remarks were posted in reply to the original message. Instead, Nudger found A.. opening in his fellow nagger’s arguments. Ihasa apso, if you don’t mind whether you’re employed or not, then please leave so we can all have a happy life. Obviously you made enough money before the dispute. Jumpseat, don’t worry I will let you know, you posted valid arguments but “Principle” does not merit depriving your family of a good wage. Thrust, you forget that we are still bent over, after the ASL slap on our “Union’s” face. ASL still exists under a different name (CXF). Conan, well wot can one say.. judging from yoor reply to another topic, yoo ought to be an English teecher.. Wasted talent. Do you know what “getalife” mean?
Gentlemen, the original message is aimed at reminding you that history clearly demonstrates the failure of rash decisions taken by any “union”. So be professional, do your jobs well until redundancies are posted, which will happen in your lifetime.
Gentlemen, the original message is aimed at reminding you that history clearly demonstrates the failure of rash decisions taken by any “union”. So be professional, do your jobs well until redundancies are posted, which will happen in your lifetime.
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Dear BusAss,
PRINCIPLE does not merit losing a good wage!!?? PRINCIPLE had afair amount of merit in such small conflicts as WWII, the blacks right to equality, justice and the vote, and oh yes!! The British coalmines.... remember those; that little puppy, amongst others, was a large cause in the forming of unions in the first place. I never used to be a "unionist" until I joined the commercial airline industry and the education was quick to be sure. You see I'm one of those silly folk who actually cares about how buddy is doing, if he gets the shaft, if he's told the truth, if he needs a hand now and again.
Personally I've had a great roster as a based type over the last couple of years, but I'll drop the gloves this instant if it means that the rest of the boys in HK get a fair and livable roster because they deserve one!! Yep, I could go screaming about my cut in pay such that crew junior to me in seniority and living in the same city as I are getting 17 to 19% more than me. Yet I will gladly let the AOA have at it on rostering with the company even if it meant risking more bullying and job threats when the roster is fine for me. Why? Cause I care about buddy..... and YOU buddy sure do not!!
I'm not sure what your personal history was during the war that was fought down under in 89. War is not guaranteed with victory, but if you talk to the boys at United, Northwest, Lufthansa and others I'd think you'd find that your view is in the minority.
This may come as a shock BusAce but money is not everything!! I know a huge number of families and individuals who enjoy life each and every day who earn a whole lot less than you!!
The management, though, believes just like you do..... that people, and their principles, can be bought!! That we are financial whores who will back anything as long as it means more money, especially in THEIR pockets.
PRINCIPLES ....... yes they DO mean something.
Billy
PRINCIPLE does not merit losing a good wage!!?? PRINCIPLE had afair amount of merit in such small conflicts as WWII, the blacks right to equality, justice and the vote, and oh yes!! The British coalmines.... remember those; that little puppy, amongst others, was a large cause in the forming of unions in the first place. I never used to be a "unionist" until I joined the commercial airline industry and the education was quick to be sure. You see I'm one of those silly folk who actually cares about how buddy is doing, if he gets the shaft, if he's told the truth, if he needs a hand now and again.
Personally I've had a great roster as a based type over the last couple of years, but I'll drop the gloves this instant if it means that the rest of the boys in HK get a fair and livable roster because they deserve one!! Yep, I could go screaming about my cut in pay such that crew junior to me in seniority and living in the same city as I are getting 17 to 19% more than me. Yet I will gladly let the AOA have at it on rostering with the company even if it meant risking more bullying and job threats when the roster is fine for me. Why? Cause I care about buddy..... and YOU buddy sure do not!!
I'm not sure what your personal history was during the war that was fought down under in 89. War is not guaranteed with victory, but if you talk to the boys at United, Northwest, Lufthansa and others I'd think you'd find that your view is in the minority.
This may come as a shock BusAce but money is not everything!! I know a huge number of families and individuals who enjoy life each and every day who earn a whole lot less than you!!
The management, though, believes just like you do..... that people, and their principles, can be bought!! That we are financial whores who will back anything as long as it means more money, especially in THEIR pockets.
PRINCIPLES ....... yes they DO mean something.
Billy
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.....once again I weep for my fellow countrymen.... The arguement can be distilled down to one simple fact: do you think that the pilots of United just won a 40% pay increase (744 Captain on an average salary of $400000 USD/year....and never mind the pension benefits) because the management thought they were a bunch of great guys...? No, they acheived it because they held the feet of management to the fire.....and they ALL (yes, even their C & T personnel) remained a united group until they achieved their aim. An Aussie mate recently joined management (BK), and I have to ask myself......didn't he just join the very group who pushed through a paycut that also affected him....?? What madness is that? Gentlemen, we are all aboard the Titanic.....and we are worrying about what suit to wear for tonights ball, as the lower decks are filling with water..... Wake Up indeed...!!! Keep up the pressure of CC......and the operation will collapse. It is only through a complete collapse of this airlines function, that we will see this management discredited and then swept out. WITHOUT THAT HAPPENING, WE WILL CONTINUE TO SUFFER YEAR AFTER YEAR WITH THIS HOLLOWING OUT OF OUR CAREERS, AND SUFFERING FROM THESE UNLIVABLE ROSTERS. Don't give up the good fight now. They have 12 new aircraft coming next year......and they can't even crew the ones they have now. The writing is on the wall for this lot. Make sure we see this through to it's final act.
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Great southern land has it right. (1) The only meaningful theory of compensation is "minimum retention". Mgmt pays only what it needs to offer to retain staff. Got nothing to do with merit or fairness. (2) (at the risk of sounding like another coffee table military strategist...apologies) negotiation takes it basis from war - strike with maximum force when/where your opponent is weakest. For a (sympathetic) outsider to CX, this would mean with all staff (cockpit crew, FA, et. al.) and when the new aircraft are in service over a peak holiday period. You'all remember what the Company itself did during the slowdown in '97 and '98!
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Man in black, & Great southern land,
Whilst I laud your posts, the problem that we are faced with here is the likes of Bus Ace, and many others from that great southern land, who will not stand up and be counted when the time comes.
They will accept decaying conditions of service so long as they can pay the rent and put food on the table.
It's a bit akin comparing this situation to an invasion of Aust by hostile forces, these people Bus ace, etc. would give up Sydney Melbourne Brisbane and Perth without a fight because they are worried that there may not be anything left at the end of it. The justification they'd use is "no worries mate" we will still have the desert and the Northern Territories. It's not as good but it is better than nothing. Sadly they cannot see how short sighted this view point is. Sometimes you have to fight for that which is rightfully yours no matter how unpleasant it may be.
Management will only pay you what they think they can get away with, when the cost of a particular course of action becomes too expensive, then and only then ,will something change. It's not personal it's business.
We keep taking it personally, which is the wrong thing to do. Do not get angry get even! Sometimes a conventional confrontation doesn't always work best. Ho Chi Min took on the might of the USA and beat them. He didn't do it by confronting them head on, the victory was achieved by finding the weakness and exploiting it. Sure it takes longer but the end result is the same.
Whilst I laud your posts, the problem that we are faced with here is the likes of Bus Ace, and many others from that great southern land, who will not stand up and be counted when the time comes.
They will accept decaying conditions of service so long as they can pay the rent and put food on the table.
It's a bit akin comparing this situation to an invasion of Aust by hostile forces, these people Bus ace, etc. would give up Sydney Melbourne Brisbane and Perth without a fight because they are worried that there may not be anything left at the end of it. The justification they'd use is "no worries mate" we will still have the desert and the Northern Territories. It's not as good but it is better than nothing. Sadly they cannot see how short sighted this view point is. Sometimes you have to fight for that which is rightfully yours no matter how unpleasant it may be.
Management will only pay you what they think they can get away with, when the cost of a particular course of action becomes too expensive, then and only then ,will something change. It's not personal it's business.
We keep taking it personally, which is the wrong thing to do. Do not get angry get even! Sometimes a conventional confrontation doesn't always work best. Ho Chi Min took on the might of the USA and beat them. He didn't do it by confronting them head on, the victory was achieved by finding the weakness and exploiting it. Sure it takes longer but the end result is the same.
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This is a total aside yet some relevance may be found in the unity aspect and the issue of unity. First I would like to say the US did not lose to Ho Chei Min because of his tactics. It was because the people of the US united together in massive protests about the killings of our men in Vietnam for nothing. Plus the deaths of four innocent young people at Kent State. We united as a people and put pressure on the Congress, our Senators and President to get the hell out of there, and so they did. The Australians would never reach such a national goal. They have no concern. After having lived there I can agree that they would give up their major cities in an invasion. It is endemic to the people of that country.
The unity of people in this country is why the blacks do have their right to vote/own land and be counted on the census. Women have the right to vote and hold jobs that were once closed to them. It is unity of a majority that can get something to happen for the better. Not being in CX but having read this forum with amusing interest, I would say you seem to have a large number of two faced people in your ranks and a large number of plain defectors. Quite often the philosophy of war is to walk quietly amongst your own ranks and carry a big stick to render them useless when the time comes for the real confrontation. Reading the book "The Art of War" should be required reading for those who are seriously interested in winning any battles.
Excuse me but having been where the company was forced to close or bring in new management I can relate. Unfortunately the board did not move to get a new management team and the company was forced to close. We were out of work for a while but when you fight for the cause to make things better, you still don't lose.
BTW: Those of us in the US that united to stop the fighting in a conflict that we inherited and had no real purpose don't see our pulling out as a loss. We saved many thousands of lives from America, Australia, the UK, and in N.and S. Vietnam. To have my older brothers returned home safely from a place they had no business was a victory for all the cold nights in Washington D.C. of candle light vigils, sit ins, and peace rallies. It was definitely worth the fight.
[This message has been edited by MaxHeadroom (edited 02 January 2001).]
The unity of people in this country is why the blacks do have their right to vote/own land and be counted on the census. Women have the right to vote and hold jobs that were once closed to them. It is unity of a majority that can get something to happen for the better. Not being in CX but having read this forum with amusing interest, I would say you seem to have a large number of two faced people in your ranks and a large number of plain defectors. Quite often the philosophy of war is to walk quietly amongst your own ranks and carry a big stick to render them useless when the time comes for the real confrontation. Reading the book "The Art of War" should be required reading for those who are seriously interested in winning any battles.
Excuse me but having been where the company was forced to close or bring in new management I can relate. Unfortunately the board did not move to get a new management team and the company was forced to close. We were out of work for a while but when you fight for the cause to make things better, you still don't lose.
BTW: Those of us in the US that united to stop the fighting in a conflict that we inherited and had no real purpose don't see our pulling out as a loss. We saved many thousands of lives from America, Australia, the UK, and in N.and S. Vietnam. To have my older brothers returned home safely from a place they had no business was a victory for all the cold nights in Washington D.C. of candle light vigils, sit ins, and peace rallies. It was definitely worth the fight.
[This message has been edited by MaxHeadroom (edited 02 January 2001).]
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Max Headroom,
I meant no disrespect to the many brave Americans who went to Vietnam, a war I agree that they should never have been in. I was merely trying to point out that direct confrontation is not always the way to go, especially when not everyone is on your side. Guerrilla tactics often achieve the same result.
I meant no disrespect to the many brave Americans who went to Vietnam, a war I agree that they should never have been in. I was merely trying to point out that direct confrontation is not always the way to go, especially when not everyone is on your side. Guerrilla tactics often achieve the same result.
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Max,
Good post. However I don't think the US lost that war because of protests, they lost it because 14 years and over 2 million vietnamese lives (mostly civilian) later, the US was no closer to winning than the day they started. It was a war that could not be won. More tonnage of bombs was dropped on northern Vietnam and Laos than all of WW2.
Good post. However I don't think the US lost that war because of protests, they lost it because 14 years and over 2 million vietnamese lives (mostly civilian) later, the US was no closer to winning than the day they started. It was a war that could not be won. More tonnage of bombs was dropped on northern Vietnam and Laos than all of WW2.
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MaxHeadroom; what an apt username you have. You obviously nead a lot of head room to accomodate all that sh*t in your skull!
"After having lived there I can agree that they would give up their major cities in an invasion. It is endemic to the people of that country."
How can you form an opinion such as the above? You must have had a lot of knockbacks from the Australian sheilas and a few sheep during your cropdusting days to utter such a stupid generalization. Many young Australians died in two world wars and a lot of other conflicts, including Korea and Vietnam in defence of right and freedom. We have been fortunate not to have been invaded by the enemy, not that it hasn't been tried, by Japan. But I can assure you that the country would be defended bravely and without yielding any of our capitals to any invader in the future. East Timor should be a lesson to some; on our northern borders.
"The unity of people in this country is why the blacks do have their right to vote/own land and be counted on the census."
You make me laugh, citing blacks in your country, the land of the free. You have enslaved them, humiliated them and discriminated against them. Why shouldn't they have a right to vote and own land? Do you still consider them unequal? Nothing at all to do with the "unity" of your people. How many innocent lives have been lost due to the 2nd Amendment? Why is it that a medical doctor looks the other way when an injured accident victim lies in the middle of the road? Unity? Not to mention your election debacle. You are the laughing stock of the world friend, so don't go slanging off at Australians, come back to have another look; you might even get to like it.
"After having lived there I can agree that they would give up their major cities in an invasion. It is endemic to the people of that country."
How can you form an opinion such as the above? You must have had a lot of knockbacks from the Australian sheilas and a few sheep during your cropdusting days to utter such a stupid generalization. Many young Australians died in two world wars and a lot of other conflicts, including Korea and Vietnam in defence of right and freedom. We have been fortunate not to have been invaded by the enemy, not that it hasn't been tried, by Japan. But I can assure you that the country would be defended bravely and without yielding any of our capitals to any invader in the future. East Timor should be a lesson to some; on our northern borders.
"The unity of people in this country is why the blacks do have their right to vote/own land and be counted on the census."
You make me laugh, citing blacks in your country, the land of the free. You have enslaved them, humiliated them and discriminated against them. Why shouldn't they have a right to vote and own land? Do you still consider them unequal? Nothing at all to do with the "unity" of your people. How many innocent lives have been lost due to the 2nd Amendment? Why is it that a medical doctor looks the other way when an injured accident victim lies in the middle of the road? Unity? Not to mention your election debacle. You are the laughing stock of the world friend, so don't go slanging off at Australians, come back to have another look; you might even get to like it.