MikeLewis

After failing the selection process to become an RAF pilot I initially gave up any hope of following my dream profession. Instead I pursued my current IT career. Approximately three years ago I realised that although lucrative, IT was not for me, and hopes of one day becoming a pilot still hadn’t subsided. Becoming a commercial pilot seemed the way to go.

Initially I tried to get sponsorship, but like so many others, found that airlines were not actively recruiting and competition for the few openings extremely high. With my mind made up I decided that if I couldn’t get sponsorship I’d pay the training costs myself. After researching the courses available in both this country and abroad, I decided that my training should be completed in the UK. As this is where I would ultimately wish to work. Unfortunately, this makes the cost even higher.

It became apparent that to earn the money required (within approximately 2yrs) I would need to leave permanent employment and become a freelance consultant. This I did and took on as much work as possible. The good news is that I now have the money required. But it unfortunately came at a health cost.

After some time I began to suffer from Panic Attacks which I visited my GP about. He was genuinely amazed that the workload and stress I put upon myself hadn’t affected me sooner. He prescribed the drug for Seroxat for a period of six months. The symptoms went away within a week or two of beginning treatment and have never returned. I have been in contact with the CAA Medical Department and have been told that this will not prevent me being issued a Class1 medical certificate.

However, I am concerned that this blot on my medical records will prevent me securing employment or restrict my career prospects. I would be most interested in hearing people’s opinion on this matter. I also urge people to be honest and not to be afraid to say something that they may think will deter me. Although I have no wish to give up I certainly wouldn’t want to spend every penny I have, not to have a career at the end of it.

Thank you for taking the time to help.

Flyin'Dutch'

Hoi,

1. Check your PMs

2. Lots of people have had symptoms like you if they have been through a period of excessive stress. They made a full recovery and went on to embark upon or continue successful careers in many different avenues.

What you want, reassurances that all will be well, will be impossible to give as everybody is unique.

Unfortunately a few people will continue to have a recurrence of the symptoms which you describe and the road to an ATPL and a job is not without its risks of failure and stresses. It is difficult if not impossible to predict those who will have had a single episode and those who will get recurring problems.

Having a previous history of a 'breakdown' is not necessarily a bar on getting a job in the aviation industry, after all what matters is having the appropriate ticket and matching medical, but this will very much depend on what the market is like.

So in the end you will have to take a close look at yourself and see what you want. Arguably someone who has been successful in paving the way so far by working this hard will succeed in finishing the project off.

Best of luck

FD

MikeLewis

Thanks for your message.

Because I have few contacts in the aviation industry I am finding it hard to know how much of an issue this is going to be. I am not concerned about having a relapse and don’t believe that I will. I realise that few things are certain in this life and would be wary of anyone telling me otherwise. I am also fully aware of the risks of failure in such a demanding industry and am quite prepared to take on these risks. However my major concern is how a history of anxiety, however brief, is going to influence an employer. Is it safe to say that this is going to be an influence and at a time of low recruitment prevent me obtaining a job?

Flyin'Dutch'

Who knows and if it is who is going to admit to it?

Realistically, no employer would admit to not hiring someone on account on their previous medical history, unless they fancy paying out on compensation after being fined by an industrial tribunal.

Not much help, I realise that but as I said this is one where you have to make up your own mind and take the plunge into the direction which you feel most comfortable with and which you can stand by in years to come.

At times in life we have to take a decision based on the information you have at the time and may be with hindsight we look back and say, well if I had known what I know now I would have done something different. But that is hindsight.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

FD

MikeLewis

I see what you are saying. Personally, I would be far happier to try and then fail, than not try and wonder if I could have succeeded.

Not sure if this goes against the norm or not but I am curious as to your profession. I understand perfectly, if you would rather not disclose this information, but I have found you’re comments useful and it has left me wondering. One for the PMs perhaps.

Many thanks.

JG1

Mike, you say you have few contacts in the aviation industry. So you might not really know what you're letting yourself in for. Its not just about flying nice aeroplanes, its another lifestyle completely, wherein you sacrifice your spirit, your money, your time (especially those very early morning hours) , probably your family, possibly your life, and you get jerked around from pillar to post in a never-ending battle against everything from gravity to the roster clerk. If in the background the bank manager was smiling begnignly at you, all of the above would be easy to take, but he isn't. In fact, he's in the queue after your wife's lawyer for his pound of flesh. Which you have none of because you have been subsidizing your own salary for 2 years because first jobs don't pay so well. You fly crappy aeroplanes for dodgy companies owned by greedy moneygrabbers in any weather because there's always someone else who'll jump in and do it if you don't.

Even as you start to fly bigger aeroplanes, airlines etc, there's still the politics problems, if you're not in with so-and-so you'll be on the -200's forever. Or out on your ear. And other little things which sort of pricked the bubble, like having to fly planes with gaudy adverts all over them. Your roster is a disappointment, although the reading of it is not so bad now your wife doesn't moan anymore - she's upped and left.

Ever felt like writing a book entitled 'The Worlds Worst Hotels' because you're in a fine position to start it right from the beginning, too! Another winner, if you go to Africa to build hours like many pilots have to do these days, would be 'How I got Dysentry and Malaria' by Mike Lewis, or worse, 'Kidnapped by Rebels - the story of Mike Lewis' by A. Reporter.

But don't let me put you off by that.



Let me put you off by reminding you that in five years time, if you went into aviation, you will, if you do well, be F/O with an airline, on a pretty meagre salary, rented house, 7 year old car, and you will have spent all that money training and supporting yourself through training, call it 100 grand at the end of the day. So you're a hundred grand (with 3 years interest) down, and on a salary which is a third or very probably less than a third of what you were making as an IT consultant. Worst case scenario is you are unemployed after having spent the last 4 years after doing your training getting shunted from pillar to post from one twin piston to another, on your third remortgage. I've seen it happen many times.

After 5 years as a contractor you would have still had the hundred grand, plus you would have had another hundred saved at least. Two hundred, maybe three hundred grand in your pocket, six-grand-a-month salary, house paid for, nice car, share in an aeroplane at the local club, holiday when you want, no real limit on off days, you charge your hourly rate, you live where you want to live, you sleep where you want to sleep, the wife's happy, the future looks fine. Your future doesn't depend on a 6-monthly medical exam.

Have a word with a few insiders before you commit yourself, is all I'm saying. Find out about all the peripherals which go with taking the commitment aboard.

If you're still happy to fly, fine - spot you through the windscreen!

bluewind

Last year i was off work with stress, that turned into depression, in the end i was off for 7 months. On return i had to se the company doc, he thought i was fine so i returned last June.
Two months ago i had an incident not at work, whereby my nerves were shattered, i carried on at work and didn`t tell anyone, but i felt i was getting worse to the point that my collegues were covering for me. Last week saw my doctor, who advised me i was suffering with depression again, and we must start the treatment as last time, this has made me feel alot worse, because if i am off sick again, will my job be safe, it`s really making me ill.

mazzy1026

JG1

what you say is true in most cases - I agree it is essential to look at the downsides of a job.

Being in IT myself and also an flying enthusiast I will tell you the downsides of being in IT.

Your sat at your desk thinking "hmmm, I really wanna go flying now".

And thats pretty much it. If your in an industry and you are not happy because you want to do something else, then you have to do it. We only live once after all. I wont go into the negatives of working in IT but i'm sure Mike knows a few or two.

Best wishes all

Lee

MikeLewis

Hello all,

Firstly Bluewind, I suffered from anxiety not depression. However, any mental health problem seems to be bundled into the same bag in the medical world. I would have thought it to be a more exact science. When I had my problems I found it quite disturbing. This probably turned one isolated incident into a problem that lasted several weeks. What sorted me out; was to understand the problem. I soon realized that the main problem was the fact that I was worrying about another attack, which in turned made me anxious. I think you may be in a similar situation. I really do recommend doing some research and trying to rationalize the problem. Hope this helps.

JG1 thanks for the information. It really did give me a chuckle. I’ve already written a book, called ‘The UK’s Worst Hotels’, so watch out for my next release. What you described would probably put some people off, but not me. I go to work every morning stare at a monitor and count the hrs till I can go home. I sit in a nice office where the temperature never changes. I have access to tea, coffee, and crisps whenever I want and get paid good money. Some people would kill for my job, I’m sure! However, it really isn’t for me. Going to Africa and getting Dysentry seems quite appealing at the moment. Well the Africa bit does!

I know what you are saying. People build up pictures of what commercial flying is all about. Nice hotels, lots of cash, etc the list goes on. I’m not that naïve. I know it’s not going to be like that. I have one reason for wanting to become a commercial pilot and that’s a passion for flying. It’s that simple. Whatever comes with it, I’ll deal with. It’s what I want to do. I’m not interested in making money, big houses and nice car. So I’ll end up with no cash. It won’t be the first time.

I think the main point in your message was :

“Have a word with a few insiders before you commit yourself”

I think this is good advice to anyone in my position. I have spoken to a couple of people and I am gradually building up a “realistic” picture. Your comments have helped.

mazzy1026 Yep, I know more than a few. I would go into them now but I’ll probably get internet busted for being online to long. Hmmm I think I’ll add that to my negative list.

MikeLewis

Hello JG1,

If you had stayed in IT, I guarantee you’d be sat at a desk right now thinking, “I wish I’d become a pilot when I had the opportunity”. It sounds like you’re a bit downhearted with it all at the moment but every Job/Career has its off periods. I think I’m right in thinking that you still have the same love for flying that you made you leave IT and become a pilot in the first place. If that is the case, then surely it’s your current job rather than career that’s the problem. Ok, I can guess what you’re going to say next. There are very few jobs to go for at the moment and there must be 100’s (1000’s?) of pilots looking for work. But the current downturn in the market won’t last forever. Also, when new jobs do become available surely people like yourself will have the pick of the bunch as you have the experience?

Don’t reminisce about how good IT was and wonder if you’d have been happier staying in that career. You wouldn’t have been. At the end of the day, there would always have been that nagging, in the back of your head, telling you that this job wasn’t your number one choice. Believe me I know, I get the same feeling everyday.

Spartacan

MikeLewis, I wouldn't worry at all about your medical problem at all. I have known pilots lose their medicals with far worse than panic attacks through personal stress. They usually make a full recovery and return to flying.

What you need to worry about is the 'profession' you are letting your self into.

I have been a pilot man and boy. Model kits, Balsa rubber powered things, gliders, PPL, RAF and several airlines. Long haul, short haul, freight, charter, schedules, three Boeings, Jet Command, fifty types and about 7000 hours.

I love aeroplanes and always will do. I particularly love my present Boeing Jet. My fellow pilots are a great bunch.

I am leaving the industry to become a teacher.

Why?

Post 9/11 the airline industry is on a mission to cut costs. Not just as a temporary measure but as a permanent way of life.

How does this affect me?

No roster stability. In fact, most of the time no roster. Next week was three days off. Today the airline took those away and a whole raft of family plans have now been scrapped. My Ops Directors idea of leadership is to discreetly tell the pilots not to have aircraft defects fixed away from base. Apparently he wants us to fly defective aircraft (with a full load of passengers) back to base as a matter of financial expediency.

I have fifteen years to retire. In order to stay employed I will probably have to move my family as the airlines change their plans. Probably I would work for half a dozen airlines in the next fifteen years just to keep the work coming in.

I see my fellow pilots families destroyed by aggressive rostering practices. Most of us would far rather be doing something else and flying for fun. The smartest guy I know left the RAF and became a lawyer. He pays for a large London house, sends three kids to private school, owns a sporting biplane and a house on the coast. He never missies a night with his family.

I live in a two bedroom place, cannot afford any decent hobbies, will forgo private education for my children and have not accrued a decent enough pension to retire on.

Hence the career change. Stability. In a word. Hopefully reward and job satisfaction too.

The best of it is I can guarantee to keep my family together.

Flying? Nope. Done that, got the tee shirt and I am keeping it in the car to clean the windows with.

My best advice is that you ask yourself some searching questions about why you want to work in the airline environment. Having a passion for flying is not the relevant issue.

beamer

An interesting thread - particuarly the last post from Spartacan. I know nothing of medical matters so I will not go further on that topic but I have been in aviation for nearly thirty years so perhaps I can add a little insight.

I can sympathise with anyone who feels that it is time to leave the industry - almost every operator is squeezing its staff ( not just its pilots) until the pip squeeks - have to keep the shareholders happy after all. If you make it through the long long process of training into the rhs you will meet many splendid like minded people who simply like flying aerolanes. Then the complications begin - the loans have to be repaid, bonds considered, night flights, tight rosters, lack of weekends, pressures on family life - it all adds up. For a while the enjoyment
of the job will keep you sane but unless you are lucky (?) enough to fly for a major operator - the balance between love of job and
quality of life changes usually in a negative sense. Some of course are so besotted by civil aviation that they will laugh away the negative elements and carry on doing so for years. Others drift away before or after their second divorce - others plod on dreaming of early retirement and that cottage by the sea.

I am not trying to be the bringer of gloom and despondancy but it does seem to me that many who enter this profession do so wearing tinted glasses - raybans of course. If you are serious about a career flying commercial aircraft - talk to people who have done the job for a decade or more, get the real facts and make a considered judgement before changing your life.

JG1

Good posts.

MikeLewis, you are right that I would be sat at my IT desk sulking that I wasn't flying. Thats the sad thing. The flying is what you miss (but only when its not pouring down and theres no CB's and its not your fourth early in a row or your sixth ILS to minima and the aircraft is working and its not 43 degrees C or minus 43 degrees C on the ground and the ATC's are understandable and that...)

Once you have committed all that time and effort and cash to training yourself, you are also more reluctant to admit "defeat".
That job at the major major couldbe just round the corner and then life'll be OK anyway.

They say the grass is greener because theres more manure there


It's like the apple in Eden...once you bite it...

I have to say though, I work with a great bunch of well-motivated and interesting people, and get to spend a lot of fun time with them too, which is also better than listening to whingeing users about how there's been an abend and can I help them? Not to say we don't whinge! Aircrew make an art out of whingeing, its really funny sometimes, and there's no shortage of targets either...

JG1

good one, johnny english!


here's an eye-opener
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...5&pagenumber=2

Bealzebub

Mike,

I have followed this thread but not contributed because I have no expertise in the field of mental health. Firstly you have the same rights as anybody else to pursue your wishes. As you know there are many pilots that have overcome illness or disability to embark on a sucessful career. For what it may be worth my advice would be to apply for a Class 1 medical certificate. This will cost a few hundred pounds, but failure to obtain it would limit your potential loss to just this sum.

Presumably "panic attacks" are a laymans term for a whole host of conditions that may be temporary or spurious or permanent. It has to be said that whilst you cannot guarantee that any human being is not to going to fail in flight, the purpose of the medical requirements are to minimize the risk as much as is reasonably possible.

Clearly anybody prone to such a condition cannot be considered as suitable to operate in a public transport role. There have been a few high profile cases of pilots being affected by such conditions in flight, and the results have been disturbing and frightening for the other crew. In situations where a crewmember may have suffered a serious trauma or injury, it is not unusual for the CAA to refer the individual to a Psychiatrist for an assesment and report. One of the investigation requirements is to try and ascertain that the individual is not likely to have any latent trauma that might manifest itself under conditions of stress.

There is no simple answer to this. Any answer will ultimately and properly be given by the CAA, but in reality I think you already know that this problem ( or history of such), is going to present a serious obstacle. Despite what you may have been told on the phone, you cannot take that as gospel and would have to be properly assesed.

Employer issues are not likely to be the difficulty, it is the aquisition of the Class 1 medical that is likely to be the problem.
For an employer medical questions are often satisfied by the presentation of a valid medical certificate. Of course if an employer does ask you questions relating to your health or history, it would be incumbent on you to make relevant disclosures.

I know you asked for frank opinions, and I am sorry if this sounds less than encouraging. Nevertheless I think it is realistic and again the first thing you should do is apply for a Class 1 initial medical. If you have doubts about doing this, you have probably answered your own question.

Good luck !

Maximuss

Good grief. I think I'm relieved to discover I'm not the only realist around here.
Pilot for some 25 years now, RAF, five different airlines, still love bits of the job but only small bits. Otherwise, I fully endorse everything Spartacan et al have said. Flying is superb. Most airline jobs are awful most of the time. Maybe I've just missed the good ones, but I work for BA now in BACX, and the lifestyle stinks, the money is average, and could be improved upon in several different spheres I could do. Worst of all, as others have said, is the lifestyle. There isn't any, and this has been not much different wherever I have worked post - HM. Sure, there are sparkling moments, a great approach and landing, that surfacing through the clouds into the sunshine bit, the applause from the back after a tricky approach etc etc. Trouble is, these do not make up for missing out on the family growing up, on times that could have been spent with the wife, of Xmas standbys, of days off changed.

If I had my time again, I would probably do the Air Force bit, but not for as long. I would not touch Civil Aviation with my mate's bargepole. Too many people think they want to get into it to anable those already in it to ever pressurise the management into sorting relatively easy problems out and making it an enjoyable job again.

Sorry to be so negative, but tomorrow is the third early........they are not as easy as they were in my twenties.

ratsarrse

I'm glad to hear you got a result with your GP, Mike. I had a girlfriend a few years back that started suffering from panic attacks. At one stage it got so bad that she wouldn't leave the house without me. Her GP was dismissive and simply wrote out a prescription for anti-depressants. There didn't seem to be a lot of information out there at the time, but we read what was available and she tackled the problem herself with support from me. We're still friends and, six years on, she hasn't had any recurrences.

Scottie

Spartacan,

Teaching? Jumping from the frying pan into the fire!

Teaching isn't the career it once was and I'd advise anyone against going into it!

My mother, sister, brother-in-law and cousins are all teachers and have left or are looking to leave the profession.

Long days, none of this finishing at 4pm, preparation time on top. Lack of discipline in the class room becuase your hands are tied behind your back. Chairs flying across the room - I jest not -because "Johnny is "hyperactive" and doesn't do this at home." The list goes on.

Don't forget to give up your saturday morning to help out with the football team...

Flying ain't the best career in the world but neither is it the worst. Every company, organisation wants there pound of flesh. Just flying pays a bit more than most.