Formation Flying - Teaching Rejoin Procedure
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Europe
Age: 59
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Formation Flying - Teaching Rejoin Procedure
I was originally taught formation rejoins in a side-by-side cockpit, but have subsequently forgotten what I was taught and have only used a different technique suited to tandem cockpits.
Using my technique would put either me or the student blind on lead as we increase AoB on the rejoin line.
Can anybody remind me what technique is best for side-by-side cockpits?
Thank you!
Using my technique would put either me or the student blind on lead as we increase AoB on the rejoin line.
Can anybody remind me what technique is best for side-by-side cockpits?
Thank you!
For any rejoin ,you must be below the other aircraft,and at least a `span `out..Depending on a/c type,usual line is nose/spinner-wingtip,and no further forward than elevator/rudder ...If either you or student go `,blind`,then that is an automatic `Breakaway/Out,` and call.
Strongly suggest you get hold of an instructor and `refresh`,otherwise it `could end in tears......!
Strongly suggest you get hold of an instructor and `refresh`,otherwise it `could end in tears......!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Europe
Age: 59
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oops, sorry. I didn't mention that I am an instructor and have been teaching rejoins for 20 years or more but in tandem aircraft. In the tandem environment as AoB increases both cockpits can still see lead whilst on the line. In a side-by-side cockpit the pilot on the far side, away from lead, has their eye line lowered so the opposing coaming/side wall obstructs their view, so this cannot work. Hence my question, what technique does work? I cannot remember what I was taught during UK EFTS.
as we increase AoB on the rejoin line.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Europe
Age: 59
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't have the brain power to reinvent anything and people must be teaching this every working day, hence me asking what technique people use and teach. Does anyone have any written down guidance they would be willing to share with me?
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
Do you mean rejoining the formation, or rejoining the circuit?
If you mean rejoining the formation, the RAF reaching in my time was to normally join up in echelon. Firstly find the wide echelon line, then slide in diagonally to get the correct spacing. If briefed to join line astern, move straight in from below.
If you mean rejoining the formation, the RAF reaching in my time was to normally join up in echelon. Firstly find the wide echelon line, then slide in diagonally to get the correct spacing. If briefed to join line astern, move straight in from below.
My last formation instruction was for a guy with a Yak18T. Before that it was all in Nanchangs and Yak52's with tandem cockpits and clear canopies. With respect to rejoins I taught them the same way on the 18T. The only difference was that you had to be lower when flying cross cockpit (i.e. left turning rejoin) either way you kept lead just above the cowl. I emphasis that bank angle determines the line so less bank if you are going ahead of the bearing line, more bank if you are going behind the line. At the tip in drive lead to the other side (right side of the canopy for a left turning rejoin and vice versa) and then using bank angle put leads wing tip just touching the top of the vertical fin. Manage smash ( ie closing speed) with power. At the tip in you want your airspeed to be about 15 % higher airspeed than formation speed as you get close to station the power comes well back to wash the smash off and then returns to what would be a normal power to hold position on the wing as the airplane stabilizes.
Just like landings a good approach = a good outcome. I want to see the student get on the bearing line early and then ride it in. Bad or worse dangerous rejoins, are always a result of an unstable flight path as the wing airplane closes on lead
Just like landings a good approach = a good outcome. I want to see the student get on the bearing line early and then ride it in. Bad or worse dangerous rejoins, are always a result of an unstable flight path as the wing airplane closes on lead
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Europe
Age: 59
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
... At the tip in drive lead to the other side (right side of the canopy for a left turning rejoin and vice versa) and then using bank angle put leads wing tip just touching the top of the vertical fin. Manage smash ( ie closing speed) with power. At the tip in you want your airspeed to be about 15 % higher airspeed than formation speed ... I want to see the student get on the bearing line early and then ride it in....
I would suggest you check out the FAST site. There is some good material that you can download
Reference Material | Formation And Safety Team
Reference Material | Formation And Safety Team
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Europe
Age: 59
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thank you. Original question now answered: it's normal to climb on the turning rejoin line in side-by-side cockpit.
New question: Why do some people use rudder/skid for lateral movement in station keeping rather than aileron/bank-on-bank-off? The open source information from all military formation flying I've seen is unanimous in using aileron and I cannot find anywhere where someone has written down the skidding technique.
New question: Why do some people use rudder/skid for lateral movement in station keeping rather than aileron/bank-on-bank-off? The open source information from all military formation flying I've seen is unanimous in using aileron and I cannot find anywhere where someone has written down the skidding technique.
Skidding is not a recommended method of station keeping. What I do see with pilots new to formation flying is unconsciously holding a bit of rudder away from lead and then banking into lead to hold positions. I think newbie’s feel more comfortable when the airplane is yawed away from lead,
This is poor practice and potentially dangerous so it should be corrected ASAP. The easiest way is to make the student take their feet off the rudder pedals after the airplane is stable on the wing.
This is poor practice and potentially dangerous so it should be corrected ASAP. The easiest way is to make the student take their feet off the rudder pedals after the airplane is stable on the wing.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Europe
Age: 59
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Skidding is not a recommended method of station keeping. What I do see with pilots new to formation flying is unconsciously holding a bit of rudder away from lead and then banking into lead to hold positions. I think newbie’s feel more comfortable when the airplane is yawed away from lead, this is poor practice and potentially dangerous so it should be corrected ASAP. The easiest way is to make the student take their feet off the rudder pedals after the airplane is stable on the wing.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,573
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
In a slow climbing turn, a low powered aircraft flying on the inside of an echelon could get very close to a stall/spin situation if a lot of rudder was used for positioning. Been there, Bulldog.
