Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Flying Instructors & Examiners
Reload this Page >

Brexit, licences and training

Flying Instructors & Examiners A place for instructors to communicate with one another because some of them get a bit tired of the attitude that instructing is the lowest form of aviation, as seems to prevail on some of the other forums!

Brexit, licences and training

Old 5th Oct 2018, 11:19
  #61 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 7,255
Originally Posted by Duchess_Driver View Post


as did I - UK CAA to IAA.
I already approached them. If i Was flying for Ryanair they would do it. But as a third party with no other connection they are not prepared to do it. Currently having the conversation with Austro Control so will report back on the answer.
S-Works is offline  
Old 17th Oct 2018, 18:32
  #62 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Heidelberg
Posts: 2
How do the CAAs of Ireland or Luxembourg treat “foreign” pilots? I am living in Germany with UK EASA licence and think about changing SOLI to Ireland or Luxembourg. Which one would be better?

where and how to get medical and how to revalidate the licence every other year?

I would initiate the process in November in order to be well ahead of the brexit date next year.

flaingmick is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2018, 12:07
  #63 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by S-Works View Post
I already approached them. If i Was flying for Ryanair they would do it. But as a third party with no other connection they are not prepared to do it. Currently having the conversation with Austro Control so will report back on the answer.
Just FYI and I appreciate I am a rotary pilot, the Belgian CAA will accept without question my FE / FIE / IRE certificates based on my UK issued EASA if that helps
flight beyond sight is offline  
Old 11th Nov 2018, 14:57
  #64 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 6,001
the Belgian CAA will accept without question my FE / FIE / IRE
That migh be to do with not having the capability to train their own and using UK resoures to do it. I trained a Belgian Examiner a few years ago.
Whopity is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2018, 09:24
  #65 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Somewhere along the ITCZ
Posts: 279
Originally Posted by Whopity View Post
There is no form. You have to use the SRG1104 modified accordingly. If you were converting to an EASA licence you only had to tick the box in Section 4. I note that SRG1104 has now gone to an on-line form.
Hey Whopity,

I filled out the form SRG1104 and have applied for a UK National ATPL(H) on the basis of my UK issued EASA ATPL(H).

I am not entirely clear though which type rating can go onto the UK ANO license, since my EASA license has a heavy multi-engine helicopter type rating on it - which is a "EASA" aircraft.

After having a look at the list of "Annex II to Regulation 216/2008" aircraft, it appears I would have to get rated on either a single-seater helicopter or some vintage model:
https://www.caa.co.uk/general-aviati...asa-aircraft-/

Any rotary PPruner out there who's been through this process? Any leads on concrete aircraft ratings currently available in the market that could serve the purpose of Annex II?

Many thanks.

Peter
Peter PanPan is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2018, 11:34
  #66 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 6,001
In my experience, any valid ratings that are on your EASA licence will appear on your National licence.
Whopity is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2018, 11:46
  #67 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,436
After having a look at the list of "Annex II to Regulation 216/2008" aircraft
Regulation 216/2008 has been repealed as of 11 September 2018 (over 2 months ago) and has been replaced by Regulation 2018/1139 - Annex II is now Annex I. Don't you just love the way that our 'competent' authority keeps us so well informed of fundamental changes in the law?
BillieBob is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2018, 12:24
  #68 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 6,001
Don't you just love the way that our 'competent' authority keeps us so well informed of fundamental changes in the law?
Don't you remember they sent out a letter saying that changes were on the way and its up to you to find out, because we are not going to tell you. So far they have kept to their word however; it does appear that they don't actually know when the changes took place.
Whopity is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2018, 00:54
  #69 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mediterranean
Posts: 98
I am not entirely clear though which type rating can go onto the UK ANO license, [...]
If I may append my case and question:

I hold a UKCAA issued EASA CPL(A)
Long ago (2003) I have been flying a Piper J3, now a non-EASA a/c.
Now just that remote J3 experience may not be bring any rights, but can some training (plus Skills Test?) gain me a J3 non-EASA "type" rating and a UK ANO CPL?
If so, can I get ratings held on my UKCAA issued EASA licence copied into that UK ANO CPL?
The aim obviously is to maintain a UK licence, the non-EASA variant, and transfer the UK-EASA licence to a non-UK EASA licence, having all ratings (except J3) on both.

Thanks for any thoughts.

jr
janrein is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2018, 09:37
  #70 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Somewhere along the ITCZ
Posts: 279
Originally Posted by Whopity View Post
In my experience, any valid ratings that are on your EASA licence will appear on your National licence.
My understanding was that the purpose of the National License was to allow pilots to fly aircraft that are still regulated by individual national authorities. This impression has certainly been reinforced after contacting the UK CAA licensing department, as the licensing officer describes issuing a National License as an exception under specific circumstances that justify doing so - not as a right.
Peter PanPan is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2018, 13:09
  #71 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 508
... the licensing officer describes issuing a National License as an exception under specific circumstances that justify doing so - not as a right.
The Air Navigation Order at article 152 requires CAA to grant a UK pilot's licence. If a suitable application is turned down then proceed with a regulation 6 appeal and if that fails seek a judicial review. Alternatively each of us can follow the CAA example and selectively ignore bits of law that are inconvenient.
selfin is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2018, 14:08
  #72 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Somewhere along the ITCZ
Posts: 279
Originally Posted by selfin View Post
The Air Navigation Order at article 152 requires CAA to grant a UK pilot's licence. If a suitable application is turned down then proceed with a regulation 6 appeal and if that fails seek a judicial review. Alternatively each of us can follow the CAA example and selectively ignore bits of law that are inconvenient.
Many thanks Selfin, I appreciate your input - however Brexit it just around the corner and I would hate to move in the direction of a judicial review (Aware that as I write this the government is still working on a deal). I find it somewhat confusing when the CAA uses so many "may" and present it as a conditional process. If one already holds a EASA license issued by the CAA, then issuing a national license should be a mere formality.
Peter PanPan is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2018, 15:11
  #73 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 6,001
Now just that remote J3 experience may not be bring any rights, but can some training (plus Skills Test?) gain me a J3 non-EASA "type" rating and a UK ANO CPL?
A J3 is covered by an SEP Class rating. So long as you have a valid SEP Class rating it can go onto either licence. Of course you don't need a UK licence to fly the J3 as it would also be covered by the SEP on an EASA licence which is rendered valid on UK registered (AnnexI) aircraft.

Last edited by Whopity; 14th Nov 2018 at 15:47.
Whopity is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2018, 20:34
  #74 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mediterranean
Posts: 98
A J3 is covered by an SEP Class rating.
Thanks for clarifying.

jr
janrein is offline  
Old 25th Jan 2019, 21:38
  #75 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Somewhere along the ITCZ
Posts: 279
So finally received in the mail box my UK ANO license issued on the basis of my EASA license, however there are no entries under IR nor type rating - although I hold both an IR valid for multi-engine helicopters and an SK92 type rating (Which is an "EASA" aircraft). The only rating that was passed on was the FI(H).

This being the first time I hold a UK ANO license, would anyone to care to confirm whether national license can have an IR or a night rating on them?

Many thanks.

Peter
Peter PanPan is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2019, 09:39
  #76 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 6,001
Your UK National licence should contain all ratings that were valid at the time of application. You should have provided them with certified evidence (Rating validity page) with your application of all rating you wished to have on the licence. If you did this then complain if they were not included..
Whopity is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2019, 10:14
  #77 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: South of England
Posts: 4
Yes they can as long as they apply to class ratings and/or non-EASA aircraft types, but if they are for EASA aircraft types.

Here is some background, which some may know and others may not - plus some predictions:

In the beginning there were UK national licences that could carry ratings for any aircraft on the UK register.
Then JAR-FCL came along. These licences were still under national law and were added to the Air Navigation Order. Being national these could still include any aircraft type or class, including microlights etc. But some of the rules for JAR-FCL licences were different and they had the privileges of being valid for aircraft registered in any JAA Member State.
When EASA and Part-FCL arrived that all changed. Part-FCL licences are valid under European law and can only hold ratings for EASA aircraft. UK national licences remained valid under the ANO but only for non-EASA aircraft (formerly called Annex II, now Annex I due to a renumbering in the EASA regulation). JAR-FCL licences and rules were removed from the ANO leaving only the original national licences but with a prohibition on including EASA types/ratings in those national licences.
To try to prevent licences being issued with the wrong ratings, the CAA's computer software was amended to produce national licences and European Part-FCL with inbuilt rules that ensured that only ratings included in Part-FCL went on Part-FCL licences and only ANO ratings went on UK national licences. These cannot be overridden. And that is how it remains today as we are still in the EU.
So today, the CAA can't put anything associated with an EASA type on a national licence - computer says 'no'.
I am guessing that the machine and/or the staff see your night rating and IR as being tied to the SK92 and so not eligible to go on the UK licence.

So what about the B word?
The CAA's plan for Brexit is that they will copy all of the EU aviation regulations into UK national law, but alongside the ANO.
The draft legislation to do this has already been published. It is hard to read as it is just the edits, but what it appears to do is adopt all of the European texts but replacing: EASA with CAA, EASA aircraft with Part 21 aircraft; and non-EASA aircraft with non-Part 21 aircraft.
So if the UK leaves the EASA system the CAA will then issue UK-FCL licences in place of Part-FCL licences. The UK-FCL licences will have the ratings for Part 21 (EASA) aircraft and the old national licences will continue as now with just the ratings for non-Part 21 (non-EASA) aircraft types.
This will mean minimum change for licence holders and the CAA.

So, in years to come will they change it so the UK national licence can hold any rating?
I doubt it, because it is not essential and would cost a lot of time and money, not least in writing new software.

And my prediction is that the CAA is going to become very short of money very soon as other UK airlines follow Easyjet's lead and become European to protect their access to European routes. (It has been reported in the general media that Easyjet is moving it's AOC to Austria; that they have transferred 130 aircraft to the Austrian register; and over 3000 of their pilots now have Austrian issued Part-FCL licences). As I recall about 50% of the CAA's income is from the charges paid by UK airlines. I note that Thomson rebranded as TUI awhile ago (the name of their german parent company) and British Airways is owned by IAG who also own Iberia. So British Airways could just become 'BA' (as British Aerospace became BAES) and cut itself free from the UK and the CAA. I think that may happen whether or not Brexit goes ahead given that the government is incapable of giving industry any certainty for future planning.
So my prediction is that, within a few years of Brexit, there won't be any major UK commercial operators, even if we eventually settle on staying in the EASA system. Those companies will still be here but they will be European companies regulated by EASA and the remaining EU Member States. The CAA will be left with UK airspace, ATC, aerodromes and UK non-Part 21 (non-EASA type) aircraft - i.e. homebuilt aircraft, ex-military, microlights, gyroplanes and drones.
I understand this is called "taking back control".
W Smith is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2019, 13:39
  #78 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Somewhere along the ITCZ
Posts: 279
Many thanks for your reply Whopity.

I certainly did provided the CAA with certified evidence with my application as required, otherwise they wouldn't even have processed my application.

What astonishes me though is that even if I hadn't submitted a certified copy of my current Part-FCL license with all my ratings, why can't the CAA just issue a document on the basis of what they have on file? Or isn't a there a file? I would have thought that they keep a database of pilots' records, specially considering the doc 155 procedure that requires the authority to officially confirm to another competent authority which type of license and ratings one currently has.

If one looses one's license for instance and can only provide the license reference number or even proof of ID, wouldn't the CAA be able to reissue a license on the basis of that person's identity without a "certified copy of the current license"?

I am all in favor of additional layers of security to confirm one's identity and prevent fraud, but it seems absurd that despite all the bureaucracy the licensing department cannot get this right.
Peter PanPan is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2019, 14:05
  #79 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 6,001
All held in a big electronic pot and they Google it out. Once upon a time they had a microfiche with every bit of communication between you and them, but all long gone now. Its all down to the luck of the draw!
Whopity is offline  
Old 26th Jan 2019, 14:28
  #80 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Somewhere along the ITCZ
Posts: 279
Oh and not to mention the actual form SRG1104 duly filled out with all the ratings on it (5. Ratings Held), so not only did the licensing officer have the "big electronic pot" to refer to, the certified copy of my license but also the form SRG1104 listing all the ratings. Despite all of that, still managed to cock-up. Perhaps things will get more efficient following a no-deal Brexit?
Peter PanPan is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.