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-   -   Brexit, licences and training (https://www.pprune.org/flying-instructors-examiners/611798-brexit-licences-training.html)

xrayalpha 3rd Aug 2018 11:53

Brexit, licences and training
 
Hi all,

With even the governor of the BofE speaking out today, it seems a no-deal is increasingly likely. In any sort of risk analysis, it really looks like something that now needs prepared for.

My first question, prompted by a student, is:

Do we need to warn students studying for an EASA licence that the licence may not be valid after the end of March next year - especially if they are contemplating a commercial career? Ryanair have already changed their booking Ts&Cs for instance, so should UK schools be doing the same?

Just as my wife was able to swap her Spanish driving licence for a UK one, can we swap a UK-issued EASA licence for another EU country issued one before Brexit?

The next question is particular to my circumstances.

I have a Spanish wife and a son/daughter-in-law/grandson living in the USA. I now want to get a light aircraft licence after 25 years instructing on microlights so I can hire an aircraft in Spain and the USA..

If I do an intensive course in Spain, can I get a Spanish-issued EASA SEP - or are the written exam questions in Spanish?

If I do an intensive course in the USA, and get a FAA licence, how straightforward is it to get a non-UK EASA SEP. I think it is very easy to get an FAA licence on the back of a European one.

I am reluctant to go for a UK-issued EASA SEP when - if Brexit ends up no deal - I could just add an SSEA rating to my NPPL once I had an FAA or EASA licence.

Thoughts?

charliegolf 3rd Aug 2018 14:40

He actually said the prospect of the UK leaving the EU without a deal was:


"a relatively unlikely possibility, but it is a possibility".
CG

TheOddOne 3rd Aug 2018 20:23

All things are possible, including all aviation above paper dart level being grounded on 30th March 2019.
The least likely a/c to be grounded are, funnily enough, microlights as the group of aircraft/licences almost wholly self governing.
Since in the event of a no-deal Brexit, there won't be any AVGAS 100LL, as it's all imported from Europe, there won't be any SEP flying.
Actually, lack of aviation will be the least of our worries. I read somewhere that we're only 24 hours at any stage of a disruption of the supply chain, from food riots and mass looting of supermarkets.
It'll make the poll tax riots look like a Sunday afternoon in the park.
We're buying seeds and marking out the lawn for vegetable beds.
TOO

Dusty_B 5th Aug 2018 15:31

You can move your EASA license to another state quite easily. If you get an EASA license from the CAA and all goes tits-up, just move it to Spain, Ireland or the Netherlands before the deadline.

Kemble Pitts 5th Aug 2018 16:47

B61, seems a tad aggressive don't you think?,

I would suspect the TOO was being somewhat tongue in cheek about a possible, but not necessarily likely, problem.

xrayalpha 5th Aug 2018 17:03

Dusty_B,

Thanks for that comment. So no need to be resident in any of those countries?

As regards chances of No Deal etc, I am just thinking along the lines of better safe than sorry, or be prepared,

If there was a 1% chance of No Deal, not much preparation. For a higher chance - whatever one might think it to be - then there would a be a higher level.

Some things, like topping up the avgas tanks at the airfield towards the end of March rather than the beginning of April, would be a sensible move?

But my query was really about licensing.

rarelyathome 5th Aug 2018 23:14

You can change you EASA licence issuer to a different state but your medical must be issued there also. The question then is whether the UK would recognise it post BREXIT if a tit for tat war breaks out.

xrayalpha 6th Aug 2018 09:31

Thanks for that Rarely.

Solves part of my problem then.

No problem flying in the UK on my own C42 microlight, and then I can get a Spanish EASA SEP for hiring in wife's country and then use that to get an FAA licence for hiring in son's country.

Just need to swim from UK to France in case of a complete meltdown ;-)

selfin 6th Aug 2018 11:25


Originally Posted by TheOddOne (Post 10213881)
... in the event of a no-deal Brexit, there won't be any AVGAS 100LL, as it's all imported from Europe, there won't be any SEP flying.

And yet the only place still making TEL is Innospec in Cheshire: "Our Octane Additives business is the world’s only manufacturer of tetraethyl lead (TEL) products." [ Octane Additives ]

Whopity 7th Aug 2018 09:00

A number of European States that are not members of the EU issue EASA licences with no problems. Apart from pig headed arrogance, why would the UK be any different?

PDR1 7th Aug 2018 09:14

Because to do that you have to be a paying (but non-voting) member of EASA. And to be a member of EASA you have to accept the ECJ as the ultiumate arbiter on aviation issues. Accepting ECJ jurisdiction crosses the red lines of the Brexit Elite, so they would rather destroy the whole nation, trash our economy and return us to the dark ages than ever admit they were wrong. They're just that sort of people.

PDR

The Old Fat One 8th Aug 2018 21:58

Honest man tell student...

Ignore all speculation and b/s. Six months nothing in overall scheme of life. Take trip, work in MacDonalds. Come back when all b/s is over and make informed choice. Good luck, grassshopper.

...still, flying training not always known for putting students interests first is it.

Captain Stravaigin 11th Aug 2018 07:14

Had not realised that EASA was linked to ECJ. This is a big deal. Hope for a GE!
 

Originally Posted by PDR1 (Post 10216997)
Because to do that you have to be a paying (but non-voting) member of EASA. And to be a member of EASA you have to accept the ECJ as the ultiumate arbiter on aviation issues. Accepting ECJ jurisdiction crosses the red lines of the Brexit Elite, so they would rather destroy the whole nation, trash our economy and return us to the dark ages than ever admit they were wrong. They're just that sort of people.

PDR



bad news all round

timprice 16th Aug 2018 21:09

CAP 1705 Automatic validation anyone?

172510 19th Aug 2018 09:29


Originally Posted by rarelyathome (Post 10215572)
You can change you EASA licence issuer to a different state but your medical must be issued there also. The question then is whether the UK would recognise it post BREXIT if a tit for tat war breaks out.

Not exactly. You medical records must be held by the license issuer, but you can have your medical examination done by any EASA medical centre. So when you transfer your license, your first step is to have your medical records transferred.
The other tricky part is the proficiency check/skill test/assessment of competence issue. Depending on the new license issuer, it can be easy, difficult, or impossible to have those checks/tests/assessments undertaken by an examiner whose license is issued by another EASA state.
I have had my license transferred from the UK to France, it took several weeks, so plan it in advance.

172510 19th Aug 2018 09:33

I heard once that one of the baltic states' CAA has a reputation of being efficient and is cheap. It might be a good choice for a new license issuer.

BillieBob 20th Aug 2018 08:04


CAP 1705 Automatic validation anyone?
Only if we remain in the EU and you're operating commercially, outside the EU, in an aircraft registered in an EU state other than that which issued your licence.

flyingkeyboard 20th Aug 2018 19:07

This affects me as I’m a PPL student. If things change then surely there will be some sort of licence that I can apply for?

xrayalpha 20th Aug 2018 19:42

Flying keyboard,

Yes, there will be. But what?

The obvious solution is for the UK CAA to recognise your training and give you an NPPL SSEA. At least that will allow you to continue to fly in the UK.

Question: will the CAA have got its act together - or is it even allowed to do anything while part of EASA? - and negotiate with ICAO to make the NPPL SSEA (or a brand new old-fashioned UK PPL A) an ICAO compliant licence that you can later add CPL etc to?

Maybe we should have a wiki to pose some of these questions and possible answers.

For instance, will UK airspace close on Brexit plus one? ATC have EASA licences! Will many airlines be grounded with many of their pilots having UK CAA issued EASA licences? How will transatlantic stuff re-route?

Will it matter if UK airspace is closed for a week or two while temporary solutions are fudged? After all, the world never came to halt when the ash clouds shut our airspace for weeks.

As you can see, I feel all will be OK for the Big Boys. But what about the Small Fry like FKB?

FKB: ask your flying school. See what they say!

Whopity 21st Aug 2018 08:16

The UK issue ICAO licences, always has done and always will do. An ICAO licence is valid Worldwide and oddly, the only people who seem to have an issue with ICAO licences is EASA who are not a member of ICAO. The EU list of objectives given to EASA by the EC includes: "Assisting member States to comply with ICAO recommemdations" Switzerland and the Channel Islands are not in the EU, they don't seem to have any problems.


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