Brexit, licences and training
BillieBob, 'COMMISSION REGULATION (EU) 2018/1065 of 27 July 2018 amending Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011 as regards the automatic validation of Union flight crew licences' states that the following new point (e) shall apply to FCL.045:
I can find nothing which states that this only applies to commercial operations. Have you a reference other than CAP 1705?
(e) A pilot intending to fly outside Union territory on an aircraft registered in a Member State other than the one that issued the flight crew licence shall carry, in print or in electronic format, the latest issue of the ICAO attachment, which includes a reference to the ICAO registration number of the agreement that recognises the automatic validation of licences, as well as the list of States which are party to this agreement.
Last edited by BEagle; 21st Aug 2018 at 14:01. Reason: NuPPRuNe's useless software!
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I have no reference other than CAP1705, which states:
Is it possible that the UK CAA have got it wrong? Surely not!
Those affected
All pilots holding a licence issued by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (the UK), in accordance with Commission Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 as amended, operating commercially for a European Operator, whose aircraft are on the register of a EU Member State which is also a member of the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA).
All pilots holding a licence issued by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (the UK), in accordance with Commission Regulation (EU) 1178/2011 as amended, operating commercially for a European Operator, whose aircraft are on the register of a EU Member State which is also a member of the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA).
I put the question to the CAA yesterday and had a reply today.
Seems entirely reasonable to me.
I also asked whether it would apply to a pilot with a UK-issued Part-FCL licence flying, for example, a French registered aircraft to Jersey....which is neither an EU nor EASA Member State.
Or what administrative action would be required for a pilot with a UK-issued Part-FCL flying an IoM registered aircraft to Eire?
My supplementary questions will have to wait until the chap responsible returns from his hols.
It is aimed at CAT but as an ICAO reference for EU pilot licences it could be used by GA also. As it's free the advice would be to carry a copy.
I also asked whether it would apply to a pilot with a UK-issued Part-FCL licence flying, for example, a French registered aircraft to Jersey....which is neither an EU nor EASA Member State.
Or what administrative action would be required for a pilot with a UK-issued Part-FCL flying an IoM registered aircraft to Eire?
My supplementary questions will have to wait until the chap responsible returns from his hols.
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BEagle,
The Isle of Man and Channel Islands fall under the UK's ratification of the Chicago Convention, IASTA, etc.
The IoM CAA states:
This position is also addressed in a Ministry of Justice fact sheet on the UK's relationship with the Crown Dependencies:
Further details can be found in annexes referred to in the above fact sheet.
Annex B -- How to Note on the extension of international instruments to the Crown Dependencies.
Annex C -- How to Note on dealing with requests from the Crown Dependencies to extend the UK's ratification of international instruments.
The Isle of Man and Channel Islands fall under the UK's ratification of the Chicago Convention, IASTA, etc.
The IoM CAA states:
The Isle of Man is an ICAO compliant territory under the United Kingdom (UK) signatory to the Chicago Convention.
The Isle of Man is a British Crown Dependency (CD). The UK Government is responsible for the international relations of the Island, including extending ratifications of international agreements to the Isle of Man as necessary. The UK ratification of the Chicago Convention covers the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the UK’s Overseas Territories and the CDs. This is detailed in the State Safety Programme for the Isle of Man Chapter 1 para 1.3.
The obligations of the UK and Isle of Man with respect to the Chicago Convention are detailed in a Memorandum of Understanding between the UK and Isle of Man Governments. The Isle of Man fulfils its UK and ICAO obligations by full participation in the ICAO Universal Safety Oversight Programme.
The Isle of Man is a British Crown Dependency (CD). The UK Government is responsible for the international relations of the Island, including extending ratifications of international agreements to the Isle of Man as necessary. The UK ratification of the Chicago Convention covers the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the UK’s Overseas Territories and the CDs. This is detailed in the State Safety Programme for the Isle of Man Chapter 1 para 1.3.
The obligations of the UK and Isle of Man with respect to the Chicago Convention are detailed in a Memorandum of Understanding between the UK and Isle of Man Governments. The Isle of Man fulfils its UK and ICAO obligations by full participation in the ICAO Universal Safety Oversight Programme.
4. International Personality
The Crown Dependencies are not recognised internationally as sovereign States in their own
right but as “territories for which the United Kingdom is responsible”. As such they cannot sign
up to international agreements under their own aegis but can have the UK’s ratification of such
instruments extended to them, and can sign specific international agreements if they have
been entrusted to do so by the UK ...
...
6. Treaties and international agreements
Article 29 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties provides that “unless a different
intention appears from the treaty or is otherwise established, a treaty is binding upon each
party in respect of its entire territory”. The long-standing practice of the UK when it ratifies,
accedes to, or accepts a treaty, convention or agreement is to do so on behalf of the United
Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and any of the Crown Dependencies or
Overseas Territories that wish the treaty to apply to them. The UK’s ratification, accession or
acceptance can also be extended at a later date.
...
The Crown Dependencies are not recognised internationally as sovereign States in their own
right but as “territories for which the United Kingdom is responsible”. As such they cannot sign
up to international agreements under their own aegis but can have the UK’s ratification of such
instruments extended to them, and can sign specific international agreements if they have
been entrusted to do so by the UK ...
...
6. Treaties and international agreements
Article 29 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties provides that “unless a different
intention appears from the treaty or is otherwise established, a treaty is binding upon each
party in respect of its entire territory”. The long-standing practice of the UK when it ratifies,
accedes to, or accepts a treaty, convention or agreement is to do so on behalf of the United
Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and any of the Crown Dependencies or
Overseas Territories that wish the treaty to apply to them. The UK’s ratification, accession or
acceptance can also be extended at a later date.
...
Annex B -- How to Note on the extension of international instruments to the Crown Dependencies.
Annex C -- How to Note on dealing with requests from the Crown Dependencies to extend the UK's ratification of international instruments.
One contributor has described much of the facts in this thread as bl/sht and I agree. All 28 members (soon to be 27) of the EU member states are members of ICAO in their own right. There are 192 members of ICAO worldwide so the EU group is a small part. ICAO it could be said only provides for the minimum acceptable international standards of all its members. So all EASA standards will be acceptable to ICAO member states in this regard. The UK leaving the EU does not change this. The EU cannot join ICAO it is not a State. Incidentally 7 of the current 28 EU states sit on the worldwide council of ICAO!
For all flights it is the individual state that decides who may crew their aircraft and that has not changed even within the EU. All EU states have a common standard. therefore there cannot be an objection to a UK pilot compliant with both ICAO and EASA flying a German registered aircraft unless Germany objects. e.g. EASA cannot intervene directly and it will need to bring pressure on Germany and further claim Germany is in breach of its agreement with the EU. Outside of EASA land the EU is not part of it in this instance. All this, to me therefore, appears to be bureaucrats getting themselves in a tangle and nothing new there.
I would say to any concerned student put all this nonsense out of your mind and concentrate on the training. Your new licence will be recognised worldwide.
Where the UK has got itself into its own tangle was to state that the UK ICAO compliant PPL/CPL and ATPL is to restrict itself to UK privileges only, although it was and should be recognised throughout the world once again
For all flights it is the individual state that decides who may crew their aircraft and that has not changed even within the EU. All EU states have a common standard. therefore there cannot be an objection to a UK pilot compliant with both ICAO and EASA flying a German registered aircraft unless Germany objects. e.g. EASA cannot intervene directly and it will need to bring pressure on Germany and further claim Germany is in breach of its agreement with the EU. Outside of EASA land the EU is not part of it in this instance. All this, to me therefore, appears to be bureaucrats getting themselves in a tangle and nothing new there.
I would say to any concerned student put all this nonsense out of your mind and concentrate on the training. Your new licence will be recognised worldwide.
Where the UK has got itself into its own tangle was to state that the UK ICAO compliant PPL/CPL and ATPL is to restrict itself to UK privileges only, although it was and should be recognised throughout the world once again
Last edited by Fl1ingfrog; 23rd Aug 2018 at 07:02.
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Originally Posted by xrayalpha
Flying keyboard,
Yes, there will be. But what?
The obvious solution is for the UK CAA to recognise your training and give you an NPPL SSEA. At least that will allow you to continue to fly in the UK.
Question: will the CAA have got its act together - or is it even allowed to do anything while part of EASA? - and negotiate with ICAO to make the NPPL SSEA (or a brand new old-fashioned UK PPL A) an ICAO compliant licence that you can later add CPL etc to?
Maybe we should have a wiki to pose some of these questions and possible answers.
For instance, will UK airspace close on Brexit plus one? ATC have EASA licences! Will many airlines be grounded with many of their pilots having UK CAA issued EASA licences? How will transatlantic stuff re-route?
Will it matter if UK airspace is closed for a week or two while temporary solutions are fudged? After all, the world never came to halt when the ash clouds shut our airspace for weeks.
As you can see, I feel all will be OK for the Big Boys. But what about the Small Fry like FKB?
FKB: ask your flying school. See what they say!
Yes, there will be. But what?
The obvious solution is for the UK CAA to recognise your training and give you an NPPL SSEA. At least that will allow you to continue to fly in the UK.
Question: will the CAA have got its act together - or is it even allowed to do anything while part of EASA? - and negotiate with ICAO to make the NPPL SSEA (or a brand new old-fashioned UK PPL A) an ICAO compliant licence that you can later add CPL etc to?
Maybe we should have a wiki to pose some of these questions and possible answers.
For instance, will UK airspace close on Brexit plus one? ATC have EASA licences! Will many airlines be grounded with many of their pilots having UK CAA issued EASA licences? How will transatlantic stuff re-route?
Will it matter if UK airspace is closed for a week or two while temporary solutions are fudged? After all, the world never came to halt when the ash clouds shut our airspace for weeks.
As you can see, I feel all will be OK for the Big Boys. But what about the Small Fry like FKB?
FKB: ask your flying school. See what they say!
Yes, according to the ANO:
Grant, renewal and privileges of United Kingdom flight crew licences
152.—(1) Subject to article 172, the CAA or a person approved by the CAA for that purpose must grant licences of any of the classes specified in Part 1 of Schedule 8, authorising the holder to act as a member of the flight crew of a non-EASA aircraft registered in the United Kingdom, if it is satisfied that the applicant is—
(a) a fit person to hold the licence; and
(b) qualified by having the knowledge, experience, competence, skill and physical and mental fitness to act in the capacity to which the licence relates.
152.—(1) Subject to article 172, the CAA or a person approved by the CAA for that purpose must grant licences of any of the classes specified in Part 1 of Schedule 8, authorising the holder to act as a member of the flight crew of a non-EASA aircraft registered in the United Kingdom, if it is satisfied that the applicant is—
(a) a fit person to hold the licence; and
(b) qualified by having the knowledge, experience, competence, skill and physical and mental fitness to act in the capacity to which the licence relates.
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So, would it be a sensible move for an EASA licence holder (UK issued of course) to apply for a UK national equivalent licence? De facto having 2 licences running ‘parallel’ to each other.
Just in case the proverbial hits the fan big style.... by 30th March, one could have a UK national ATPL and an EASA ATPL transferred to another member state?
thanks
Just in case the proverbial hits the fan big style.... by 30th March, one could have a UK national ATPL and an EASA ATPL transferred to another member state?
thanks
On the grounds that you should never throw away anything that is hard earned, it is well worth ticking the box and having 2 licences.
From the Scheme of Charges:
From the Scheme of Charges:
3.4 National UK Pilot’s Licence – issue to retain National UK ratings When making a conversion / replacement application specified in Tables 1 or 3, where, in addition to the issue of an EASA Pilot Licence, the applicant requires also the issue or grant of a National UK Pilot’s Licence in order to retain National UK ratings, the applicant shall pay to the CAA a supplementary charge of £37.
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I've been looking for days on the CAA website to find a suitable srg form to apply for a national licence based on my EASA ATPL but no joy. Any lead please? thank you
There is no form. You have to use the SRG1104 modified accordingly. If you were converting to an EASA licence you only had to tick the box in Section 4. I note that SRG1104 has now gone to an on-line form.
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I upgraded straight from JAR CPL to EASA ATPL early 2017; the form I used back then did not have any box to tick - I think it was srg/1183. I did not query this matter at time (i know i should have!) because my newly issued licence had more pressing errors I had to urgently fix!
Thank you very much for the help guys
Thank you very much for the help guys
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I would rather not leave EASA as it becomes career ending for me....... I am a UK FE/CRE/TRE and do enough line flying for currency. The rest of my work is travelling around Europe testing pilots on our rather unique fleet. Not being able to test EASA licence holders would not only end my career but have a huge impact on the companies ability to operate.
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Originally Posted by Fl1ingfrog
One contributor has described much of the facts in this thread as bl/sht and I agree. All 28 members (soon to be 27) of the EU member states are members of ICAO in their own right. There are 192 members of ICAO worldwide so the EU group is a small part. ICAO it could be said only provides for the minimum acceptable international standards of all its members. So all EASA standards will be acceptable to ICAO member states in this regard. The UK leaving the EU does not change this. The EU cannot join ICAO it is not a State. Incidentally 7 of the current 28 EU states sit on the worldwide council of ICAO!
I would say to any concerned student put all this nonsense out of your mind and concentrate on the training. Your new licence will be recognised worldwide.
Where the UK has got itself into its own tangle was to state that the UK ICAO compliant PPL/CPL and ATPL is to restrict itself to UK privileges only, although it was and should be recognised throughout the world once again
I would say to any concerned student put all this nonsense out of your mind and concentrate on the training. Your new licence will be recognised worldwide.
Where the UK has got itself into its own tangle was to state that the UK ICAO compliant PPL/CPL and ATPL is to restrict itself to UK privileges only, although it was and should be recognised throughout the world once again
Now it may be possible to reinstate these missing CAA areas but not by March 29 2019 and not without vast expense which (in-case you hadn't noticed) the CAA is required to recover from you the user.
This is why the CAA were saying for a long time that a "no-deal" Brexit is so catastrophic it isn't worth planning for. There is no viable alternative to a deal that keeps the UK in EASA, at least temporarily, and talk from UK politicians of "no-deal" being fine is insanity of the highest order. If this affects you, you need to be hassling your MP to find an exit from Brexit before it destroys your livelihood.
Except, in a no deal scenario the UK won't be ICAO compliant on Brexit day.
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Originally Posted by Whopity
What utter rubbish. ICAO compliance has nothing whatsoever to do with the EU who are not even a signatory to ICAO. ICAO compliance means operating in accordance with ICAO recommendations which the UK has always done in and out of the EU.
OK, I'll give you an easy one to start with: explain how the UK currently complies with ICAO Annex 19 standards and how it will comply with it on 30 March 2019.
ICAO Annex 19 is aimed at member States; each State is responsible to ICAO for compliance and notification of any differences. The oversight afforded by EASA is not covered in the Annex 19 process and ammounts to nothing more than a middleman that has no responsibility to ICAO as it is neither a State nor a member.
