Brexit, licences and training
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: n/a
Posts: 1,425
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ICAO Annex 19 is aimed at member States; each State is responsible to ICAO for compliance and notification of any differences. The oversight afforded by EASA is not covered in the Annex 19 process and ammounts to nothing more than a middleman that has no responsibility to ICAO as it is neither a State nor a member.
Picking on one tiny bit of Annex 19 .. it requires a system to collect, analyse and exchange safety data. How do we do that today...oh look it's via a pan European system that the UK only has access to through its membership of the EU / EASA. So come Brexit day, without an agreement, the UK loses access to a central support of its state safety program. Now maybe the CAA has kept the software for the MOR scheme kicking about on an old database somewhere and can solve this one... but this is just one of a very very long list of technical capabilities the UK is required by ICAO to have and will no longer have. Multiply this by everything else currently done by EASA and then think of the damage done by a decade of Cat 2 status to the UK industry.
Daysleeper
You appear to be misunderstanding ICAO. The UK and all the other states of the EU are independently members of ICAO, indeed seven of them including the UK are permanent members of the ICAO council. It follows then that anything that EASA does is not in conflict with ICAO and EASA has never sought to be so.
Even if Brexit should happen without agreement there is nothing to prevent the UK continuing as an EASA operator, indeed EASA would like the whole world to join them.
You appear to be misunderstanding ICAO. The UK and all the other states of the EU are independently members of ICAO, indeed seven of them including the UK are permanent members of the ICAO council. It follows then that anything that EASA does is not in conflict with ICAO and EASA has never sought to be so.
Even if Brexit should happen without agreement there is nothing to prevent the UK continuing as an EASA operator, indeed EASA would like the whole world to join them.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Daysleeper
You appear to be misunderstanding ICAO. The UK and all the other states of the EU are independently members of ICAO, indeed seven of them including the UK are permanent members of the ICAO council. It follows then that anything that EASA does is not in conflict with ICAO and EASA has never sought to be so.
Even if Brexit should happen without agreement there is nothing to prevent the UK continuing as an EASA operator, indeed EASA would like the whole world to join them.
You appear to be misunderstanding ICAO. The UK and all the other states of the EU are independently members of ICAO, indeed seven of them including the UK are permanent members of the ICAO council. It follows then that anything that EASA does is not in conflict with ICAO and EASA has never sought to be so.
Even if Brexit should happen without agreement there is nothing to prevent the UK continuing as an EASA operator, indeed EASA would like the whole world to join them.
I'm very sympathetic to the concerns that people like bose-x express. There is so much rubbish out there spurred on by amatuer dramatists. As many have already suggested the option to transfer the admin of your licence to another EASA state is an option, now! The Dept. of Transport (CAA), who will ultimately decide, in truth, will find it hard to refuse a UK citizen the issue of a UK licence based on a current held EASA ATPL/CPL/PPL licence, having previously forced the UK pilot down that path in the first place.
Although you cannot hold two EASA aeroplane licenses you can of course hold as many non EASA licenses as you choose. How these would be maintained is the relevant question.
It is true the EU parliament sans the UK will have the final vote but that in the main is irrelevant. The real work is dome in the working groups made up by representatives of all members. The working groups are constituted primarily by relevant professionals although I'm told some countries do send politicians to these groups. So, if the UK remains in EASA it will hopefully continue to influence.
Although you cannot hold two EASA aeroplane licenses you can of course hold as many non EASA licenses as you choose. How these would be maintained is the relevant question.
It is true the EU parliament sans the UK will have the final vote but that in the main is irrelevant. The real work is dome in the working groups made up by representatives of all members. The working groups are constituted primarily by relevant professionals although I'm told some countries do send politicians to these groups. So, if the UK remains in EASA it will hopefully continue to influence.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: n/a
Posts: 1,425
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Daysleeper
You appear to be misunderstanding ICAO. The UK and all the other states of the EU are independently members of ICAO, indeed seven of them including the UK are permanent members of the ICAO council. It follows then that anything that EASA does is not in conflict with ICAO and EASA has never sought to be so.
Even if Brexit should happen without agreement there is nothing to prevent the UK continuing as an EASA operator, indeed EASA would like the whole world to join them.
You appear to be misunderstanding ICAO. The UK and all the other states of the EU are independently members of ICAO, indeed seven of them including the UK are permanent members of the ICAO council. It follows then that anything that EASA does is not in conflict with ICAO and EASA has never sought to be so.
Even if Brexit should happen without agreement there is nothing to prevent the UK continuing as an EASA operator, indeed EASA would like the whole world to join them.
If the UK can stay in EASA then great, even better if it can stay as a full member... but that relies on there being a deal done and at the moment the UK government position is that a no-deal exit is the most likely scenario and the only deal they are prepared to offer is one that has been rejected by the EU. There are, approximately, 2 months left to agree a deal in time for it to be ratified. The UK is on the edge of a cliff and still arguing with itself about whether gravity does or doesn't exist.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As have I. However...... You can SOLI licence and ratings Including Instructor ratings, BUT you cant SOLI Examiner approvals. Examiners are appointed on a national basis and I have yet to find a country that will appoint a newly SOLI'd pilot as an Examiner. Just like the UK they expect you to have in depth experience and knowledge of your NAA before even considering your application. As a huge amount of my work is Examining its a show stopper for me......
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: On the green bit near the blue wobbly stuff
Posts: 674
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
As have I. However...... You can SOLI licence and ratings Including Instructor ratings, BUT you cant SOLI Examiner approvals. Examiners are appointed on a national basis and I have yet to find a country that will appoint a newly SOLI'd pilot as an Examiner. Just like the UK they expect you to have in depth experience and knowledge of your NAA before even considering your application. As a huge amount of my work is Examining its a show stopper for me......
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A TRE is actually the outsider in the this discussion as it would normally be appointed as part of the day job flying for an airline or other AOC operator. Its the FE/CRE/IRE stuff that is more difficult as that is a result of progression. Every NAO I have spoken to so far have refused to transfer Examiner Ratings.]
For what its worth CAA statement 11 Sept:
They did re-issue all pilot licences a few years ago to include "ELP"
“The CAA will continue to issue and reissue pilots' licences when they are lost, damaged, when details need to be changed or pilots' privileges updated as we do now. Over time, this would include removing references to EASA - a purely cosmetic change. There will be no requirement for licences to be re-issued for any other reason meaning that there will be no change to this process.
“The CAA also strongly refutes any suggestion that we are concerned about our ability to provide safety oversight to the UK aviation industry should no-deal be reached between the UK and the EU. The safety of passengers, crew and those on the ground remains our absolute priority and nothing has changed in this respect.
“The CAA also strongly refutes any suggestion that we are concerned about our ability to provide safety oversight to the UK aviation industry should no-deal be reached between the UK and the EU. The safety of passengers, crew and those on the ground remains our absolute priority and nothing has changed in this respect.
The full CAA statement in response to the Sky article:
Commenting on today's Sky News story on UK aviation and Brexit, Mark Swan, Group Director of Safety and Airspace Regulation at the UK Civil Aviation Authority, said:
“It is misleading for Sky News to say that pilots would need to renew their pilot's licence in a 'no-deal' Brexit scenario. Both commercial and private UK pilot licences would remain valid for use on UK-registered aircraft as the United Kingdom is a signatory to the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) Chicago Convention. Our licences are internationally recognised - including by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) - both now and after 29 March 2019.
“The CAA will continue to issue and reissue pilots' licences when they are lost, damaged, when details need to be changed or pilots' privileges updated as we do now. Over time, this would include removing references to EASA - a purely cosmetic change. There will be no requirement for licences to be re-issued for any other reason meaning that there will be no change to this process.
“The CAA also strongly refutes any suggestion that we are concerned about our ability to provide safety oversight to the UK aviation industry should no-deal be reached between the UK and the EU. The safety of passengers, crew and those on the ground remains our absolute priority and nothing has changed in this respect. Sky News has unfortunately confused EASA approval of new aircraft and component design with our existing national safety oversight obligations.
“As a responsible regulator, the CAA has been planning for all eventualities in the negotiations, including that of a 'no-deal', for some time. Our planning and contingency is advanced and we continue to work closely with the Government to prepare the industry for all scenarios.”
Commenting on today's Sky News story on UK aviation and Brexit, Mark Swan, Group Director of Safety and Airspace Regulation at the UK Civil Aviation Authority, said:
“It is misleading for Sky News to say that pilots would need to renew their pilot's licence in a 'no-deal' Brexit scenario. Both commercial and private UK pilot licences would remain valid for use on UK-registered aircraft as the United Kingdom is a signatory to the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) Chicago Convention. Our licences are internationally recognised - including by the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) - both now and after 29 March 2019.
“The CAA will continue to issue and reissue pilots' licences when they are lost, damaged, when details need to be changed or pilots' privileges updated as we do now. Over time, this would include removing references to EASA - a purely cosmetic change. There will be no requirement for licences to be re-issued for any other reason meaning that there will be no change to this process.
“The CAA also strongly refutes any suggestion that we are concerned about our ability to provide safety oversight to the UK aviation industry should no-deal be reached between the UK and the EU. The safety of passengers, crew and those on the ground remains our absolute priority and nothing has changed in this respect. Sky News has unfortunately confused EASA approval of new aircraft and component design with our existing national safety oversight obligations.
“As a responsible regulator, the CAA has been planning for all eventualities in the negotiations, including that of a 'no-deal', for some time. Our planning and contingency is advanced and we continue to work closely with the Government to prepare the industry for all scenarios.”
Each State appoints Examiners to meet its own requirements. There is no process for transfering an Examiner Certificate between States. A pilot who transfers SOLI would need to apply to the new Authority for an Examiner Certificate.If you hold a multitude of certificates that could be a lengthy process.
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: UK,Twighlight Zone
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: England
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The doom-mongers are doing my head in. Both sides want a deal so only the most incompetent and lemming-like of negotiators could ever manage to end up without one.
(Oh, hang on a minute...)
(Oh, hang on a minute...)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Europe
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A TRE is actually the outsider in the this discussion as it would normally be appointed as part of the day job flying for an airline or other AOC operator. Its the FE/CRE/IRE stuff that is more difficult as that is a result of progression. Every NAO I have spoken to so far have refused to transfer Examiner Ratings.]
I do not think the IAA have their own examiner course yet and rely on other authorities course.
An other friend, SOLI to Luxembourg, just had to make a AoC with a Luxembourg SE to regain his FE.
I wonder how much income the CAA will lose as airlines and pilots move their operations/licences to other EU Member States? The 2019 CAA Scheme of Charges consultation, due out next month, should prove interesting
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hotel this week, hotel next week, home whenever...
Posts: 1,492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A friend when moving from Belgium CAA to the IAA (for a well know operator) had all his examiner rating transferred at the same time.