P-A-T technique
In any case A-P-T is applied when you are teaching the initial climbing lesson where the aircraft will be going from cruise flight to a normal climb at a lower airspeed. So again why apply full power have the aircraft start to accelerate and then have the aircraft rotate to the climb attitude and then start slowing down ? It makes a lot more sense to establish the attitude first and then smoothly apply full power. It also is easier for the student to keep the aircraft balanced ( ie prevent yaw) if the aircraft is already in the climbing attitude.
The point of A-P-T is to give the student guidance for the initial climbing exercise. They should pretty quickly be able to do the actions necessary automatically.
The bottom line is simple. The key to doing the exercise properly is for the student to be able to recognize and hold the correct attitude
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So again why apply full power have the aircraft start to accelerate and then have the aircraft rotate to the climb attitude and then start slowing down ? It makes a lot more sense to establish the attitude first and then smoothly apply full power. It also is easier for the student to keep the aircraft balanced ( ie prevent yaw) if the aircraft is already in the climbing attitude.
Increasing power will (a) pitch up, then (b) create a rate of climb in the majority of aeroplanes.
If you want to increase speed, use the stick! Increasing power will decrease trimmed speed in the vast majority of aeroplanes (don't try it in a Thruster).
Back to discussion, what's everybody's "norm", I'd go with:
- Start of climb: PAT
- End of climb: APT
- Start of descent: PAT or APT (doesn't make a big difference)
- End of descent: PAT
Looking at that, APT at the top of descent or climb, and PAT at the bottom is probably a reasonable approach to teach?
Oh ****, I think I've just created a horrible training mnemonic there.
"APT the top, PAT her bottom" anybody?
G
If you want to increase speed, use the stick! Increasing power will decrease trimmed speed in the vast majority of aeroplanes (don't try it in a Thruster).
Back to discussion, what's everybody's "norm", I'd go with:
- Start of climb: PAT
- End of climb: APT
- Start of descent: PAT or APT (doesn't make a big difference)
- End of descent: PAT
Looking at that, APT at the top of descent or climb, and PAT at the bottom is probably a reasonable approach to teach?
Oh ****, I think I've just created a horrible training mnemonic there.
"APT the top, PAT her bottom" anybody?
G
If you apply the power, secondary effect pitches it up anyway so saving effort and giving a faster and more efficient transition to the climb, there is no noticeable acceleration either, and I do not see why balance is any easier applying power after establishing climb attitude. certainly the way I was taught.
In any case I would suggest that the order A-P-T or P-A-T has more to do with personal preferences and there is no one "right" way here. The important thing is that the student is setting the right attitude, uses the rudder to keep the aircraft in balance and trims away the stick force.
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- Start of descent: PAT or APT (doesn't make a big difference)
Waiting for student to get the nose up before adding power is easier for the student.
)with students getting the power on first , correcting the yaw as it comes on and letting the nose come up with the power, this achieves pretty much
With practice they will be able to pitch up, add power and control yaw all at the same time which is the desired end state for demonstrating competence for this manoever.
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Power reduction must be before pitching down to select the attitude to descend otherwise as others have said you end up fast - this is why loads of people end up fast on the approach because they pitch down then reduce power and end up with lots of speed to lose. For transition to descend on the base leg / for approach it should be reduce power, hold the attitude, then when speed has reduced to the desired descent speed, then lower the nose and trim for the approach speed.
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No, if a glide descent you want the speed back so bring the power back first and hold the attitude to get the speed back, if a cruise descent then bring the power back as required and let the nose go down straight away with secondary effect (though then selecting correct attitude for speed and trimming) to keep speed, either way I would use PAT. I was actually taught (and teach myself) use PAT for ALL except TOC, where you need to be APT (because you need to leave power on to get the speed up) and I think this works well.
If you use APT at start of descent you are having to push against the trim AND the aircraft will accelerate as well which is not usually wanted. Entering both a climb and a cruise descent in practice though you are actually doing Attitude and Power simultaneously.
If you use APT at start of descent you are having to push against the trim AND the aircraft will accelerate as well which is not usually wanted. Entering both a climb and a cruise descent in practice though you are actually doing Attitude and Power simultaneously.
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Regarding the climb & descend technique (whether using PAT or SHoT), another 'term' comes in - "simultaneuosly" and "progressively".
In the climb, you select full POWER & climb ATTITUDE "simultaneously", then trim.
In the glide descend, you select idle POWER, then "progressively" select glide descend ATTITUDE as you approach glide speed.
Did I just cause more confusion...?
In the climb, you select full POWER & climb ATTITUDE "simultaneously", then trim.
In the glide descend, you select idle POWER, then "progressively" select glide descend ATTITUDE as you approach glide speed.
Did I just cause more confusion...?
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Did I just cause more confusion...?
In the climb, you select full POWER & climb ATTITUDE "simultaneously",
"progressively"
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Plus don't forget:
PAT and APT tell you how to achieve, to maintain use, L.A.I. :
LLookout
In a scan loop ahead, look out to the left and scan from left to right, passing over the nose of the aeroplane.
A Attitude
Ensure the attitude is correct relative to the horizon and, more importantly, constant.
I Instruments
Used to confirm accurate flight – not set it. From right to left the instruments are scanned, and this brings the scan back to the left side of the aeroplane and the process starts again.
During the instrument scan, only those instruments important to the phase of flight are read. In this case the altimeter will probably be scanned on every sweep, with oil pressure and temperature scanned every 10th sweep.
Should be PAT for desecent otherwise you may cause confusion on PFL if you teach converting airspeed to altiude,also prepares for base leg reconfiguration, also stops APT & PAT confusion-we teach APT is a pushover!
PAT and APT tell you how to achieve, to maintain use, L.A.I. :
LLookout
In a scan loop ahead, look out to the left and scan from left to right, passing over the nose of the aeroplane.
A Attitude
Ensure the attitude is correct relative to the horizon and, more importantly, constant.
I Instruments
Used to confirm accurate flight – not set it. From right to left the instruments are scanned, and this brings the scan back to the left side of the aeroplane and the process starts again.
During the instrument scan, only those instruments important to the phase of flight are read. In this case the altimeter will probably be scanned on every sweep, with oil pressure and temperature scanned every 10th sweep.
Should be PAT for desecent otherwise you may cause confusion on PFL if you teach converting airspeed to altiude,also prepares for base leg reconfiguration, also stops APT & PAT confusion-we teach APT is a pushover!
Last edited by Pull what; 15th Mar 2012 at 11:46.
All these acronyms confuse me, and I've been instructing a while now. How about we give a proper lesson on the ground and er well EXPLAIN the effects of controls? It shouldn't be a memory test, all flying is about is using the controls to place the aircraft in an appropriate attitude to achieve the result you want. Going up requires more power than cruising for any reasonable rate of climb, going down less or none depending on what you are trying to do. In all cases the trim should be used to help maintain the attitude you have set with the stick, the rudder maintains balance, and if there is a rudder trim so much the better. Most light aircraft the attitude change is fairly small from cruising to a descent at the same speed, the student may well need to control the usual tendency to pitch down with a power reduction.
Until they can do all of that with their eyes outside the cockpit there is no point teaching any other exercise, or letting them look at the instruments. This is the absolute basis of all flying, and should not be rushed. Use the natural horizon to show wings level and pitch attitude. Yaw will show as a change of heading despite wings level. Yes, the student has to do two things at a time, making a change to the power setting and controling the aircraft in three axes. Then they trim. If the student can't quite cope then set the power for them while they set the attitude.
Ok, that's what I teach. Acronyms are fine ihmo for checklist items, but this is basic handling and needs to be learned by the muscles, not the brain. Now shoot me down.
Until they can do all of that with their eyes outside the cockpit there is no point teaching any other exercise, or letting them look at the instruments. This is the absolute basis of all flying, and should not be rushed. Use the natural horizon to show wings level and pitch attitude. Yaw will show as a change of heading despite wings level. Yes, the student has to do two things at a time, making a change to the power setting and controling the aircraft in three axes. Then they trim. If the student can't quite cope then set the power for them while they set the attitude.
Ok, that's what I teach. Acronyms are fine ihmo for checklist items, but this is basic handling and needs to be learned by the muscles, not the brain. Now shoot me down.
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Nah piper I don't use them apart from pat the cat even then if they get it I don't bother.
Sometimes they are used as a beating stick by some instructors.
I was once asked in a aggressive tone "have you done your "chump" checks" or some such after departure.
I looked at the instructor and said "yep your still onboard"
I don't think the boy wonder had been told before he was talking complete and utter pish before in a debrief. Apparently we could have died because I didn't check that the welded undercarrage wasn't still welded. The mixture which I had my hand on could have rattled cut off and the fixed pitch prop could have done something, what I couldn't quite figure out.
I was informed that these checks were important if I was moving on to complex aircraft like he had. Which again he was told he was talking pish.
Silly boy hadn't bothered finding out what my experence level was.
Still rented me the plane mind when he bothered to check my license. Green unrestricted trumpted blue restricted I presume.
Sometimes they are used as a beating stick by some instructors.
I was once asked in a aggressive tone "have you done your "chump" checks" or some such after departure.
I looked at the instructor and said "yep your still onboard"
I don't think the boy wonder had been told before he was talking complete and utter pish before in a debrief. Apparently we could have died because I didn't check that the welded undercarrage wasn't still welded. The mixture which I had my hand on could have rattled cut off and the fixed pitch prop could have done something, what I couldn't quite figure out.
I was informed that these checks were important if I was moving on to complex aircraft like he had. Which again he was told he was talking pish.
Silly boy hadn't bothered finding out what my experence level was.
Still rented me the plane mind when he bothered to check my license. Green unrestricted trumpted blue restricted I presume.
Last edited by mad_jock; 15th Mar 2012 at 14:12.
'PAT' is taught by CFS as a technique used whilst changing power settings, it is not taught as a mnemonic used for changing attitude. However, it was hi-jacked by some civil FI years ago and is now misused - as its wretched sibling 'APT'.
For example, when entering a climb, you apply full power, hold the attitude and trim as you do so...
...but then to enter the climb, you use the mnemonic 'SHT' - you Select the climb attitude, Hold the attitude and Trim. To maintian the climb, you use the mnemonic 'LAI' - L00kout, adjust the Attitude if necessary by reference to the Instruments. When levelling off, it is again 'SHT', then as the aircraft accelerates, you progressively adjust the Attitude and Trim.
As for DRIBBLE (or is it DABBLE? Whichever, it's still bolleaux), CHUMP and other such nonsense......
PAT - when changing power settings
SHT - when changing attitude
LAI - when maintaining anything
paAT - when accelerating / decelerating
Nothing else needed. And I once vowed to shoot the next idiot who spouted 'Turn Time Talk' as the sequence of actions you should teach for turning points on a visual navigation exercise...
For example, when entering a climb, you apply full power, hold the attitude and trim as you do so...
...but then to enter the climb, you use the mnemonic 'SHT' - you Select the climb attitude, Hold the attitude and Trim. To maintian the climb, you use the mnemonic 'LAI' - L00kout, adjust the Attitude if necessary by reference to the Instruments. When levelling off, it is again 'SHT', then as the aircraft accelerates, you progressively adjust the Attitude and Trim.
As for DRIBBLE (or is it DABBLE? Whichever, it's still bolleaux), CHUMP and other such nonsense......
PAT - when changing power settings
SHT - when changing attitude
LAI - when maintaining anything
paAT - when accelerating / decelerating
Nothing else needed. And I once vowed to shoot the next idiot who spouted 'Turn Time Talk' as the sequence of actions you should teach for turning points on a visual navigation exercise...